2019 Mac Pro: The last of the Mohicans (Back on again.)

Colstan

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UPDATE: Order was canceled, ignore please. (Short version: I ordered a Mac Pro at a stupid low price, wanted advice about GPU, it got canceled.) Feel free to remove this post, since it's no longer valid.

UPDATE 2: Our fine host and good gentleman, Eric, has requested that I keep this post up, because he doesn't like to censor discussion. I most humbly agreed, that is a good policy.

UPDATE 3: The shipping label was wrong. I'm still getting the Mac Pro. I'm also having a nervous breakdown.
 
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Cmaier

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I could use some advice, please bear with me, this is a bit long. So, I feel strangely bad about what I'm about to post, because I've been looking forward to getting an Apple Silicon Mac, and much like everyone here, throwing rotten eggs at the stinky Xeons. I even did some babysitting last month in the Mac Pro forum over at MR, which was endlessly amusing. I look forward to the reaction when the Apple Silicon version is released, both for the technology, and the resultant teeth gnashing.

The problem I have with Apple Silicon is that I'm also a gamer. I've been playing PC games in Windows, limping along with my 2018 i3 Mac mini with RX 580 eGPU. Apple did a firmware update that killed that configuration. (To be clear, I'm not blaming Apple, I knew ahead of time that it wasn't a supported scenario.) It was quickly aging out, anyway.

I know @Cmaier believes that Apple has a substantial interest in gaming, and I trust what he says, but that's not yet reflected in the current market at this moment. I often get asked "why don't you just get a PC?!". The real problem is that I'm not rich enough to be able to just build a gaming PC to run alongside my Mac, and I'm not dumb enough to use Windows as a daily driver. I'm not poor, not wealthy, just frugal. I still plan on getting an Apple Silicon Mac in the future, but not today.

So, in an attempt to stop beating around the proverbial bush, I just purchased a refurbished 2019 Mac Pro, and should have it next week.

Specs:

3.2Ghz 16-core Xeon W-3245
96GB RAM
2TB SSD
RX 580X GPU

Configured new on Apple's website, it comes to $9,599 in United States negotiable currency, before rendering unto Caesar. However, I got it for $2,120 after UPS and Uncle Sam take their cut. How did an uncultured peasant like myself manage this? Ebay error. I've been whimsically shopping for a Mac Pro for the past year, but not seriously. Then, for some reason, this particular auction didn't come up when searching Ebay for "2019 Mac Pro", it only appeared in the seller's listings, hence I was the sole bidder. I'm sure you, gentle reader, are shouting "scam!" right now, but it's from a computer store I've done business with dozens of times, over many years, and confirmed my purchase on the phone. So, unless UPS loses it during its trip through the wild hinterlands, it should work out.

Other than booting into Windows to play PC games, this is entirely wasted on me. Games don't need 16-cores, 96GB of system memory, a large SSD, or a fancy over-engineered Apple case. I don't need this computer, but I've wanted a Mac Pro since I was a little kid, back in the 1980s. (Just pretend.) What I do need is a fast GPU, which the 580X is not.

Assuming you're still reading this, here's where I need some advice from you nice folks. As I said, I'm not rich, I just got lucky with this purchase. I need a fast GPU to use for games. It looks like Apple stopped updating third-party driver support after the current RDNA2 line, with the refresh not being supported. So, that really leaves me choosing between a 6800XT or 6900XT. My challenge is finding both a card that isn't exorbitantly priced but also fits inside the Mac Pro case.

It's tight inside the housing, and only AMD's reference card, and GPUs from Gigabyte and Sonnet will fit. As far as I know, every other manufacturer uses big ass coolers that are too large for the case. Since 6900s are going for relatively reasonable prices, they can be had for $700, while the 6800 is $600. You can buy a $700 6900 off of MSI's website right now...except it won't fit. AMD hasn't discounted its reference cards for a long time, Sonnet removed the 6900 from their website, and the Gigabyte card hasn't been on sale for a month now. I missed the boat on that one. I could of course settle for a 6800, woe is me, but would prefer a 6900.

I don't want to deal with the used market, for obvious reasons, such as the mining bust and worn out GPUs. So, finally getting to my question, I'm wonder what you would do in my situation? Do I wait another month to see if Gigabyte reduces its price again, assuming they haven't already sold out stock? Do I wait for RDNA3 to be released and see if Gigabyte or AMD discount their 6900s? Or should I just settle for a 6800 from Sonnet for $100 less, while they still have them in stock?

This was an unexpected situation to find myself in, so any thoughts on the matter would be very much appreciated.
Can’t help you with the graphics card stuff, but good catch on the machine. For that price I would have bought it just to look at the cool case all day.
 

Nycturne

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So I assume the goal is to get a GPU that works with both macOS and Windows? If so, I don’t really have much advice other than good luck and hopefully you can get what you want for the price you can afford.

If the 580X is sufficient on the Mac side though, maybe consider a GPU that will only be used in Windows on a separate input on your monitor?

However, I got it for $2,120 after UPS and Uncle Sam take their cut. How did an uncultured peasant like myself manage this? Ebay error.

Sales prices on the 2019s are all over the place for the moment. I see multiple units sold on eBay for just over 2000, and then a huge jump and selling for 4-5000. So congrats on coming out ahead in a volatile market.
 

Colstan

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Sadly, it was not to be! The owner got wind of what had transpired, so it was canceled. Oh, well if it's too good to be true... This does mean I'm going to open a dispute with Ebay for the trouble they created. Sorry for clogging up the forum with my troubles! I shall update the original post.

cancel.jpg
 

DT

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Sadly, it was not to be! The owner got wind of what had transpired, so it was canceled. Oh, well if it's too good to be true... This does mean I'm going to open a dispute with Ebay for the trouble they created. Sorry for clogging up the forum with my troubles! I shall update the original post.

Bummer, that was a pretty sweet deal, it would've for a very nice Mac, plus - with maybe a graphics card upgrade - a pretty stout dual boot/BC Winders machine.

It's funny, in the last several weeks, I've knocked around the idea of a "most recent" Intel based MBP, so I'd have a portable I could boot into Windows (for work related use), but not be committed to a Windows only machine.
 

Colstan

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Bummer, that was a pretty sweet deal, it would've for a very nice Mac, plus - with maybe a graphics card upgrade - a pretty stout dual boot/BC Winders machine.

It's funny, in the last several weeks, I've knocked around the idea of a "most recent" Intel based MBP, so I'd have a portable I could boot into Windows (for work related use), but not be committed to a Windows only machine.
Yeah, I guess I'm going to have to get an Apple Silicon Mac next year after all. Woe is me. I didn't get my hopes up, I was just planning for the future, which sadly is not to be. I know, cry a river for me and my first world problems*.

I asked Eric to remove this post, because I didn't want to clog up the forum, but he requested that it stay up. I agreed, so that others may learn from my folly. (Or at least chuckle at it.) He's a good dude, so stay up it shall.

This is strangely a relief, because I had methodically planned out my future Mac plans. Now, I can just go back to my old plan. There's always a plan "B", if you prepare properly.

*Fun fact: we have all heard the terms "first world" and "third world", but they don't mean what we think they do. It has nothing to do with wealth, and whatever happened to the second world?

First world = Western democracies
Second world = Soviet Union
Third world = Non-aligned countries
 

DT

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Yeah, I guess I'm going to have to get an Apple Silicon Mac next year after all. Woe is me.

They are stellar for sure. We've got an M1 8+7/8/256 MBA, an M1 8+8/16/256 MBP (hahaha, slightly hobbled, now in permanent "desktop mode"), and now the new M2 8+10/16/256 MBA. Fantastic performance combined with mind boggling battery life (and in the case of the Airs, completely silent).

If I could go Mac only (so to speak), I'd have a Studio sitting on my desk :)
 

Colstan

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I think I'm ready to have a heart attack. The ups and downs are killing me.

Screen Shot 2022-09-01 at 5.23.08 PM.jpg

I was wondering why it weighed 1 pound on the shipping label.

Maybe I should just shut up until I find out if I actually get it. Logically, I should be pleased that I'm apparently really going to get a $10,000 Mac Pro for $2,000. Instead, I'm completely stressed out.
 

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Buntschwalbe

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Wow, that must be one powerful machine. I would say, best case you just enjoy the next few years with this beast; then you can look for a replacement. Just don't let you get distracted from the upcoming AS Mac Pro. They will be super efficient, but also super expensive. I for one will envy you, compared to my Kabylake Hackintosh (at least mine is in an nice old g5 case ;)).
 

Colstan

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Thank you to everyone that has been following this saga of mine. If you want to see the original post, it was quoted in its entirety by @Cmaier, but I thought the order was canceled, so I asked Eric to delete this post, but he wanted to keep it up. This was premature, much like my nervous breakdown, because they didn't cancel the order, it was just a stupid clerical error on the shipping label. They got the weight wrong and forgot to require a signature upon delivery. That's kinda important.

While I've done good business with this company through Ebay before, I think they are getting spread too thin, because they managed to screw both themselves and a long-time customer at the same time. The original Mac Pro listing never showed up when searching for "2019 Mac Pro" in the Ebay search bar. It had a "buy it now" price of $7,000 and a starting bid of $2,000. I've been casually following prices for these for the past year or more, and the cheapest model I've ever seen sell was for $3,200 for a base model without a GPU. (That excludes the many scam listings that go for much less.) So, you can imagine my shock when I got a high-end premium model for $2,000. While there were other folks watching the bid, I think I was the only one who wanted a Mac Pro, and just stumbled upon it.

Reposting specs:

3.2Ghz 16-core Xeon W-3245
96GB RAM
2TB SSD
RX 580X GPU

After tax, that's $10,000 on Apple's website. The catchy named W-3245 is a $2,000 upgrade alone. Yes, much of that includes the Apple tax and is brand new, not used, but this model typically sells for substantially more than I paid for it. That's how the company screwed themselves. They screwed me by mucking up the shipping label and having to redo it. So, unless something else happens, it should ship today.

Going back to the original topic, you can probably see that the GPU is the only weak spot. I plan on using it to play PC games, which this Mac Pro is overkill for, but I want it, so if I get it, I'm keeping it. Since Apple is killing off the Intel line, and this is the only remaining model yet to meet the hangman's noose, Apple hasn't updated drivers to support the RDNA2 refresh, despite being a simple driver ID adjustment. So, no 6950XT, etc. That's okay, I understand why Apple is doing it, it's a dead product, it just hasn't realized that Apple already killed it. So, that leaves the 6600, 6800, and 6900 as the only options.

The 6600 is a bad match for a system like this. Hence, I'm deciding between a 6800 and a 6900. I've seen the 6900 on sale for as low as $700, but most cards won't fit inside the Mac Pro because of the giant heat sinks that AIB partners use. The 6800 can be had for $600. I did the math, and the 6900 is exactly 10% faster than the 6800, while the price difference is 15%. Therefore, the better price/performance value is the 6800, and honestly, I doubt I'd notice the 10% difference, especially since I'm using one of the last affordable "Retina" monitors, the LG 21.5-inch UltraFine which maxes out at 60Hz. (Which I also got new off of Ebay for half the original MSRP.) If I had one of those insane 240Hz gaming monitors, then I might be more concerned. Also, I'm not rich, just lucky that I get all this stuff at good prices, so that $100 can go to games and such.

This whole journey has been nerve wracking, so I'm just going to make my life easy and grab a Sonnet 6800XT off of their website, since they are trying to sell off stock and already stopped selling the 6900. Of course, this is Apple, so I'll need adapter cables for the Mac Pro's proprietary power supply. Obviously, I'm not going to order this until I have the Mac Pro in my possession and can verify that it is fully operational.

I've got the new tracking number from UPS, and I should get it next week. That's assuming a piano doesn't fall on my head first.
 

Colstan

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Just don't let you get distracted from the upcoming AS Mac Pro. They will be super efficient, but also super expensive.
Despite (apparently) getting an Intel Mac Pro, I'm very interested in the Apple Silicon model, simply because I enjoy technology, and Apple is at the top of its game. There's no way I would purchase one, both because of the price and having no idea what to do with it. If I hadn't snagged this x86 MP for cheap, or for some reason it doesn't work out, then I had planned on getting a Mac mini with an M3 Pro, assuming Apple makes such a model. If not, then it would have been a Mac Studio with an M3 Max. That's the level of performance that I'd be looking for.

Now, I'm not sure what my next Mac will be. I think I can get a good four years out of this, at the very least, then give it to my nephew for gaming. So, bizarre as it sounds, my next Mac may feature an M6 or M7. That's kinda hard to wrap my brain around.
 

Colstan

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Our story begins in a wild, untamed land. A land of moors, scrub brush, misty swamps, ice-capped mountains, and barren desert hellscapes; a blasted plane which is only spoke of in hushed tones. The ancients would scribe "here be dragons" upon their maps, warning all to avoid, lest they pay the ultimate price. The bravest of sailors would avoid its coastal waters at all cost. Today, not even the U.S. Navy would approach its brackish shores. Parents would warn their children to stay clear, for it hosts the city known as the "serial killer capital of the world". This is where my technological beast, a gewgaw of great might, is originating from. Yes, I speak of the much talked about but rarely visited badlands of Cleveland, Ohio.

ontheway.jpg

expectedarrival.jpg
 

Colstan

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Before I continue with this postmortem, I wanted to thank everyone who followed my saga to purchase a 2019 Mac Pro. The ups and downs were killing me, but you good folks kept me grounded, so I appreciate it, very much so. This whole endeavor reeked of "if it's too good to be true...", with me as the only bidder on a $2,000 Mac Pro, which is currently about $10,000 if configured new on Apple's website. Instead of me bloviating for multiple paragraphs, I decided that I'd let the screenshots do the talking for me.

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Now, keep in mind that I'm coming from a 2018 base model Mac mini, with a Core i3 without Hyper-threading, a 128GB SSD, and an RX 580 eGPU. To say that this is an upgrade is an understatement. Just the CPU alone, 4C/4T to 16C/32T is nuts.

I haven't done a lot of benchmarking yet, but ran Geekbench 5. Here's a few screenshots from that.

Geekbench1.jpg


I assume that the Mac Studio with an M1 Ultra is the best Apple Silicon computer to compare to this Mac Pro.

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Obviously, Apple is firing on on cylinders with the M-series, and that's just the opening broadside.

In addition to the $2,000 that I spent on the Mac Pro itself, I got a closeout sale on a Sonnet Radeon RX 6800 XT, for $600 plus $35 for power cable adapters for Apple's proprietary power supply. I couldn't justify the added expenditure of the 6900 XT, given that it has exactly 10% greater performance, before factoring in overall system performance charateristics, yet has a much higher price/performance disadvantage. This is why I typically purchase at least one notch below the top-end product. Apple didn't release driver support for the RDNA2 refresh (6950 XT, etc.) and I see no indication that they are going to release RDNA3 products, so this was an easy decision for the graphics card to replace the stock Radeon 580X that came inside this Mac Pro.

Here is the Metal score from Geekbench for this Sonnet GPU, compared to the average of other 6900/6800 systems, along with the M1 Ultra:

GPUresults.jpg


While the M1 Ultra is impressive, GPU performance appears to be the area where Apple needs to improve the most when compared to the PC industry.

For whatever reason, my Sonnet 6800 XT outperforms both the average 6800, but also 6900, according to Geekbench. Also, as can be seen, the small performance difference between the 6800 and 6900 isn't worth the increased price, in my opinion. Also, as seen in a previous image, I'm using the last affordable "Retina" monitor, the 21.5-inch LG UltraFine, which I got brand new last year for half the original MSRP. It maxes out at 60Hz, so the differential between the 6800 and 6900 isn't going to be as obvious compared to someone who is using a 240Hz gaming monitor.

And so, that concludes my Mac Pro adventure, with great success. I know that this is entirely overkill for what I do. The only intensive task that I do is gaming. Much of this beastly machine is wasted on that purpose. Still, one can never have too much performance.

In summation, I captured the unicorn. I got a Ferrari for the price of a Pinto. Ever since I switched to the Mac back in 2005, I have always wanted a Mac Pro, but could never justify the price. Now, I feel very fortunate to have one.

My primary interest in the 2019 Mac Pro is because it is the last of its kind. It's the final Apple model that can be both a Mac and a PC, without compromise. Concerning the future, I'm hoping that our esteemed @Cmaier is correct about Apple's interest in gaming, and I trust what he says on the matter, this purchase simply buys me time, being able to run both macOS and Windows. Hopefully, once Apple gets its gaming plans in order, I'll be able to move on from x86 and Windows, but until then I will have this Mac Pro to allow for that functionality. Since Metal 3 includes drivers for the AMD Vega and 5000/6000 series, I'll be able to support Mac gaming by purchasing the latest titles such as Resident Evil Village, No Man's Sky, and Moonbreaker, even though I haven't moved to Apple Silicon yet. It's easy to forget that Metal 3 hasn't dropped support for all x86 Macs, and I want to support developers who support the Mac.

This whole scenario does feel a bit odd, seeing how I've been wanting to transition to Apple Silicon, but given my needs, and the stupid low price I got this 2019 Mac Pro for, there's no way I could have passed it up. I figure I can get at least four years out of it; I know Apple is going to try to kill off x86 releases of macOS as soon as possible, but support should be available long enough to get a decent useful life out of this machine. So, this has put off my move to Apple Silicon, for a time. In fact, my next Mac will probably have something like an M6 or M7 inside of it, as hard as that is to fathom.

Until then, I just have to figure out what I'm supposed to do with this monster.
 

Citysnaps

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Until then, I just have to figure out what I'm supposed to do with this monster.

I suspect that would be an outstanding machine for running X-Plane - especially X-Plane 12 which is in public beta now.

Any desire learning to fly?
 

DT

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Nice! Wow! Even after it finally shipped I had some doubts, what an awesome deal. Is that GPU better than you originally indicated?
 

Colstan

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Any desire learning to fly?
Unfortunately, I think I'm more likely to sink, but I appreciate the suggestion.
Nice! Wow! Even after it finally shipped I had some doubts, what an awesome deal. Is that GPU better than you originally indicated?
Yeah, like I said, this is nuts. This is my "million dollar dream" purchase. We all have one, if we suddenly somehow win the lottery, a Mac Pro had always been the one item that I assumed would forever be illusory to me, just beyond my grasp. Somehow, I got one thanks to a search term error. The same company that I purchased this one from has another Mac Pro listed with identical specs currently selling for $7,000. I'm fortunate that they didn't try to back out of it, because they must have taken a bath on it.

I still can't completely believe it myself. The Sonnet GPU is a bit noisy when under load, but all GPUs of that power level are. I'm going to have to move the Mac Pro under my computer desk, which should help. Also, setting the fan curves with various utilities may be worth trying.

I don't know exactly why this Sonnet 6800 XT is benchmarking as it is, since it's just the AMD reference design, with different fans. Maybe the Mac Pro itself has superior cooling, letting it boost a bit higher than the other 6800s and 6900s that show up in Geekbench. The fact that it is performing higher than a 6900 XT is remarkable.

I was concerned that I was going to get a lemon graphics card, which would suffer from coil whine, or obscenely high-pitched fans. However, they aren't annoying, just loud, which I should be able to control with things like MSI Afterburner, I assume.

If anyone has any suggestions for a good fan control program for Windows and/or macOS, and how to properly use them, then I'm all ears. I haven't overclocked anything for about 17 years now, since I switched to the Mac, hence much of this is completely new to me. I've heard undervolting the GPU can also produce good results. I'm more concerned with keeping temperatures and therefore noise down, rather than getting ultimate performance. I'd gladly give up 10% GPU speed for a reduction in decibels, which is another reason I avoids the top-end cards. Any suggestions or feedback in this regards would be much appreciated.

Of course, any other general feedback or suggestions are most welcome, as well.
 

Cmaier

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For just a few minutes last night, as I was re-installing Monterey in recovery mode on my 2016 Intel MBP that wouldn’t boot for some reason, I was thinking of @Colstan as I contemplated buying a Mac Studio to replace the old thing.

Alas, reinstalling the OS allowed the thing to boot, so I was saved from my own folly.
 
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