A case for Trump supporters

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Scepticalscribe

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Clearly you don't understand the point and if you haven't gotten it by now you won't. Therein lies the true ignorance.

@ericgtr12: It is one thing (or perspective) to attempt to - if not reach out, at least recognise, or acknowledge the concerns of the 'Other Side" - once the election is over, and the new administration has taken office, but this lot (the GOP, fellow-travellers and foul enablers) don't recognise the result, (or haven't) as yet even acknowledged the validity of the result, and are doing everything in their power (which is considerable) to reject the outcome, frustrate the transition, undermine democratic institutions, and to deny the legitimacy of the ballot.

Seriously, what case have they?
 
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PearsonX

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The point is that dismissing over 70 million people is myopic by any stretch, particularly when such a large swath of them were previously Obama supporters or Democrats before 2016. What do you say to those people? Are they all suddenly the haters we see in the videos posted, are the ALL racist bigots?

Joe Biden has made it clear that he's going to reach out to this constituency, are you calling him ignorant as well?
It really depends. Your point would be valid if there were minimum decency standards being adhered to. There aren't. Trump hasn't conceded yet, and the videos posted by @JayMysteri0 suggest there's a significant minority of people who agree with this kind of approach. It's an issue. He and I have also dealt a lot with people like TShrimp labeling BLM a borderline terrorist group, whereas the same behavior by PB is being nodded to. It's a problem.

So what @Scepticalscribe points out, decent guys expecting decency for people who defy such concept any step of the way is something that will lead to no results.
 

Edd

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The point is that dismissing over 70 million people is myopic by any stretch, particularly when such a large swath of them were previously Obama supporters or Democrats before 2016. What do you say to those people? Are they all suddenly the haters we see in the videos posted, are the ALL racist bigots?

Joe Biden has made it clear that he's going to reach out to this constituency, are you calling him ignorant as well?
I wouldn’t call Biden ignorant. He’s doing as he should, and what I’d do if I were in his position. I like the optimism of swaying Trump supporters but my sense of logic tells me it’s naive.

I’m a broken record on conservative media, but its only tightened its grip since Obama ran for president. We don’t have an answer for it. Biden surely doesn’t, I reckon.
 

Huntn

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There's a point I want to make here, especially to @JayMysteri0 as to why posting a bunch of videos in response to a thread that just asks us to look at it from the other side. My ex old best friend of some 35 years always had racist tendencies and we would have heated discussions from time to time, it wasn't until he started sharing youtube videos of black people beating on white people that I had to distance myself from him.

There are no shortage of these videos and he would use them to point out how all black people are thugs, I even brought up the black man who once bought a handcuff belt buckle and was stopped a block later and questioned how he got the money to pay for it and my friend's response was "then he should tell his people to quit being thieves so he wouldn't be targeted". It was the straw that broke the camels back, we haven't spoken in years now and he's a hard core Trump guy as you might guess.

In my view, responding with these videos to label all those who voted for Trump with this broad brush is no different, how does this make us better than them?
You made this point before and I don’t think you are really trying to argue we should overlook racism so we can be friends. And I‘ve talked about and asked what makes an individual a racist? Is it having racist feelings yourself, or not caring enough about ethnic groups who are discriminated against because personal advantage is perceived? And if not a racist, what excuse, gullible, ignorant, etc?

The essence of the argument becomes what deficiency can we overlook that heals the nation? Regarding broad brushes, even if it is not an exact equivalence, how would we regard supporters of Hitler?

Part of finding common ground, there has to be enough common ground for a healthy relationship to begin with. My guess is in post Nazi Germany, supporters of Hitler had to either disavow Hitler, or at least lock this part of themselves away keeping their terrible thoughts to themselves. They certainly can’t be out pushing their corrupt agenda, for healing, and this is exactly what the die hard Trump supporters are doing. I am very concerned that these people have broken from reality to such an extent they pose a threat to our system of government. What is to be done about stupid and gullible?

Now regarding the people who supported Trump because they thought they financially benefitted, but are willing to let him go, there is the possibility of a future, unless they continue to push the standard of corrupt as the path forward for the Nation, then imo for both of these cases we are in deep trouble.

It’s as if someone said I want to be friends, you just have to give up these silly notions, of honestly, integrity, morality, and stop expecting competence, and then we can be best friends, ok? Is there a basis for a relationship? Someone has to change, who, and by how much?
 
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ericgtr12

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@ericgtr12: It is one thing (or perspective) to attempt to - if not reach out, at least recognise, or acknowledge the concerns of the 'Other Side" - once the election is over, and the new administration has taken office, but this lot (the GOP, fellow-travellers and foul enablers) don't recognise the result, (or haven't) as yet even acknowledged the validity of the result, and are doing everything in their power (which is considerable) to reject the outcome, frustrate the transition, undermine democratic institutions, and to deny the legitimacy of the ballot.

Seriously, what case have they?
They lost, thankfully. And to be clear I think Trump is the worst thing since Hitler if I'm being honest, it also seems like his supporters are behind an idea as much as the man and it's a swing we haven't seen since the uprising of the tea party, who were equally as awful. My entire point though is that there are so many of them and to not acknowledge it is a mistake, Democrats still have work to do here.
 

ericgtr12

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It really depends. Your point would be valid if there were minimum decency standards being adhered to. There aren't. Trump hasn't conceded yet, and the videos posted by @JayMysteri0 suggest there's a significant minority of people who agree with this kind of approach. It's an issue. He and I have also dealt a lot with people like TShrimp labeling BLM a borderline terrorist group, whereas the same behavior by PB is being nodded to. It's a problem.

So what @Scepticalscribe points out, decent guys expecting decency for people who defy such concept any step of the way is something that will lead to no results.
Well, to be fair I'm talking about those who voted for him, not the man himself who is obviously a mentally unstable monster who is fortunately about to be shown the door, though the exit will be ugly from the looks of it. Why they support this sort of person is the question I would love to see a sane answer to but is the crux of this thread.

No Republican will talk to the press about it either, they still worship him even though he lost and it's all something I cannot wrap my head around. I get the frustration and bewilderment.
 

Scepticalscribe

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Well, to be fair I'm talking about those who voted for him, not the man himself who is obviously a mentally unstable monster who is fortunately about to be shown the door, though the exit will be ugly from the looks of it. Why they support this sort of person is the question I would love to see a sane answer to but is the crux of this thread.

No Republican will talk to the press about it either, they still worship him even though he lost and it's all something I cannot wrap my head around. I get the frustration and bewilderment.

Not until the election has been recognised as valid, democratic institutions upheld, and the new administration has been allowed to take office.

Until then, talking to them about anything other than recognising the election as valid, and the conditions of transition, strike me as a complete waste of time.

This is because, while they may whinge about the (disturbingly) high vote that Mr Trump - and his foul minions - achieved, they overlook the fact that Mr Biden - who, let us not forget, has received the highest vote recorded in US history - has, therefore, secured a serious mandate. They deny that at their peril.

And both @PearsonX and @Huntn make excellent points.
 
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SuperMatt

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Obama made the mistake that Eric is making. Try to be nice to them and maybe they will come around. Make the ACA full of GOP-acceptable ideas and they will support it. Nominate moderate circuit court judges and justices for the Supreme Court and they will confirm them. Propose legislation that is bipartisan and they will approve it.

In the end, the GOP cared nothing about their nation or compromising. As Mitch put it, his only priority was to make Obama a 1-term president. When that failed, he simply blocked everything he wanted to do.

As soon as the Dems get power, aggressively push a progressive agenda and if you have the votes, forget about the Republicans.

As for the voters, I agree - don’t paint them with too broad a brush. If you make good policies that make people’s lives better, the votes will follow.
 

ericgtr12

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Obama made the mistake that Eric is making. Try to be nice to them and maybe they will come around. Make the ACA full of GOP-acceptable ideas and they will support it. Nominate moderate circuit court judges and justices for the Supreme Court and they will confirm them. Propose legislation that is bipartisan and they will approve it.

In the end, the GOP cared nothing about their nation or compromising. As Mitch put it, his only priority was to make Obama a 1-term president. When that failed, he simply blocked everything he wanted to do.

As soon as the Dems get power, aggressively push a progressive agenda and if you have the votes, forget about the Republicans.

As for the voters, I agree - don’t paint them with too broad a brush. If you make good policies that make people’s lives better, the votes will follow.
Reminds me of a statement I recently heard "Democrats try to play fair, Republicans play to win". What you're describing about Obama is one of his best characteristics IMO, he kept things high-brow and tried to do the right thing but when you're against Republicans who just want to kneecap everything it's a huge challenge, but points for his optimism.

Considering how many jumped from Obama to Trump though, it seems wise to at least understand where these inroads were made and what we can do to reverse some of it during the Biden administration.
 

lizkat

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As for the voters, I agree - don’t paint them with too broad a brush.

Yah, a vote for Trump (even in 2020) does not necessarily equate to support for Trump's brand of governance. To think so would be a strategic error on the part of what's left of GOP leadership.

Some conservatives have been appalled by Trump's failure to lead on covid response, but voted for Trump anyway because most of all they did not want to see a blue White House AND a blue Senate given that they lost the House in 2018 and at least in runup to the elections there seemed to be a chance the Senate might flip blue, which would have left Trump in a precarious position if he went on to win a second term.

Given that the polls may have undersampled folks voting for Trump on policy considerations rather than on any focus on Trump himself, it has seemed to me that in 2020 as in 2016 but for different reasons, one cannot reliably separate out the "Trump vote" motivations. There wasn't as much animosity against Biden as there had been against Clinton in 2016. The focus of the right seemed to be more one about potential for "socialist" policies if Biden led a government with a growing progressive wing among Dems in the House.

R-leaning voters sometimes seem unable to sort out the unlikelihood of "extreme" progressive measures reaching status of law in a country that has seen legislation negotiated at center right now for decades. Think that comes from media coverage of controversial issues versus the more mundane legislation passed in Congress, often enough with bipartisan approval.

Clickbait... it works for the media, but at expense of critical thinking by the clickers.
 

JayMysteri0

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The troll level is strong in this thread. Let me know when these people represent the entire 72 million who voted for Trump.
There's a point I want to make here, especially to @JayMysteri0 as to why posting a bunch of videos in response to a thread that just asks us to look at it from the other side. My ex old best friend of some 35 years always had racist tendencies and we would have heated discussions from time to time, it wasn't until he started sharing youtube videos of black people beating on white people that I had to distance myself from him.

There are no shortage of these videos and he would use them to point out how all black people are thugs, I even brought up the black man who once bought a handcuff belt buckle and was stopped a block later and questioned how he got the money to pay for it and my friend's response was "then he should tell his people to quit being thieves so he wouldn't be targeted". It was the straw that broke the camels back, we haven't spoken in years now and he's a hard core Trump guy as you might guess.

In my view, responding with these videos to label all those who voted for Trump with this broad brush is no different, how does this make us better than them?
The point is that dismissing over 70 million people is myopic by any stretch, particularly when such a large swath of them were previously Obama supporters or Democrats before 2016. What do you say to those people? Are they all suddenly the haters we see in the videos posted, are the ALL racist bigots?

Joe Biden has made it clear that he's going to reach out to this constituency, are you calling him ignorant as well?

Wow. 😗

I'm not really sure where this is going. I'm especially confused with the constant assertion that anyone said what's been referred to as ALL 45 fans, by what I have posted. From my very first post here, I put that sign specifically about "Not all 45 supporters", but you seem to be personally offended by my spotlighting the portion of 45 supporters who fall in the zealot category. My point is & always has been if you want to preach "turning the other cheek", make sure you are cognizant of who else you are choosing to turn that cheek too. Because that crowd isn't turning a cheek, unless it's to tell you to kiss their "45 loving ass".

That is still NOT a dismissal, it's a reminder that while you want to give a pass & try to embrace a silent majority, that is the same group also voted for the guy who's shit we are trying to swim out of. I personally can't & won't let that go. From that same group you want to bend over backwards to, is the same group that helped vote this catastrophe into existence. AND THEY DID IT AGAIN!! 😫 Yes, despite the warnings from others & the man himself, they voted for the man a first time. They then got to see the man in all his vileness & incompetence for four years, and thought, "WTF? Lets do THAT again!"

They went with 'F' all for how horrible it was for others, "for ME it wasn't so bad, so why not?"



I'm sorry, but no.

It's commendable. It's aspirational on your part. But I also feel it's playing into the democrats favorite role of America/Charlie Brown to Susan Collins/Lucy Van Pelt. I've had too many friends & people I follow who've been on the shit end of the emboldened 45 fanatic. Those fanatics didn't discover those small pellets between their legs were actually testicles, without the tacit support of the very crowd you are so sympathetic for, and displeased I don't assume they want to hang out at my next "Kumbaya campfire sing along".

Keep in mind, while you imagine it's trolling to illustrate that mass that was happy with the racism, child imprisonment, corruption, and ineptitude with a pandemic, at least they have the sack to own it. That group you want to give a great big hug to & "it'll be alright, I feel your pain" pat on the back, isn't saying a G- D@MN thing about the crapfest they willingly helped create that we are all in now. Not a bleeping word. Not even a "my bad". Just silence, looking longingly for your forgiveness, and waiting to vote the same d@mn way again. Even if it's against their greatest self interests.

But I'M the bad guy here. 😒 I'm going to assume you must have a way to peer into the same souls who hated 'Obamacare', but then sought the flesh of their beloved congress people who were preventing them from having ACA. So you are sure those same souls can be swayed? Please understand my doubts.

I'm sorry. Those people you hate seeing me emphasize are the proud ones who want to be seen & thought of as representing 45ism & their idea of America. That's the face that's out there, that those you want to 'reach' are hiding behind, acting like a vote for 45 was no big deal.

As others have pointed out, this incessant need by some to be the 'bigger guy' only goes so far, and you have to realize the persons you are trying to be bigger than aren't even bothering to stand. Right now they are flailing away on the ground kicking & screaming & throwing a fit, because in their world they only lose when the contest is rigged. At some point everyone has to accept reality that some people ( please for the love of Pete don't say I'm saying ALL again ) are just assholes. You deal with that fact move on, and you take care of your own & who you made promises to first. Hopefully along the way the more sensible of the 45 bunch can consider working together even if it doesn't get THEM ALL they want, is better than getting nothing more than judges elected.

So once again, I'll have to ask for your forgiveness, but I do see ALL 45 supporters who made a choice that voting for an administration that has no issues with racism, corruption, & who the frik knows what else in THAT light. Not only that, but they did it 2 FUCKING TIMES!!! That's not something I can easily get over. I commend you for wanting to do that heavy work. It's something I warned early on in the other place. ALL who voted for this guy have to accept that some of us will NOT be able to look at them the same. It's the same as when you find out someone you think you knew is actually a racist, and it tears at you for thinking you were a fool & that they had a good laugh at your expense. It's just a realization that's very difficult to accept. It's the same for me & 45 supporters.

Do I think they are all like the virulent mob walking around in their feelings proudly waving flags with 45's face ( the irony of THAT crowd who cried tears of blood that Kaepernick disrespected the flag, puts a reality TV star on the flag proudly ) on it? No. I do think however that like that mob, racism an issue very important to me, was not. It's NOT me saying they are ALL racists, it's me saying that racism is NOT a thing for ALL of them, and THAT for me is a thing.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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I have some sympathy for this guy because he's not frothing at the mouth, has clearly been fed bullshit from the news sources he respects, and spends a lot of time with the interviewer who is being somewhat condescending in his responses and questions. He's just a simple guy who wants his problems addressed and the establishment before Trump offered him nothing including acknowledgement. IMO this is what has made Trump even more of a despicable human being and president. He cares nothing about these people (or anyone for that matter) and took advantage of their simple needs and worldview to build a divide to its breaking point.

 

ericgtr12

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I have some sympathy for this guy because he's not frothing at the mouth, has clearly been fed bullshit from the news sources he respects, and spends a lot of time with the interviewer who is being somewhat condescending in his responses and questions. He's just a simple guy who wants his problems addressed and the establishment before Trump offered him nothing including acknowledgement. IMO this is what has made Trump even more of a despicable human being and president. He cares nothing about these people (or anyone for that matter) and took advantage of their simple needs and worldview to build a divide to its breaking point.

These people at these rallies believe whatever Trump says without question and when you confront them with the truth it's like shooting fish in a barrel, they're willfully ignorant and more than happy to let the world know it. You give this guy more credit than I ever could, he has a choice to believe the actual truth that's right in front him or not. It's just embarrassing to watch.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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These people at these rallies believe whatever Trump says without question and when you confront them with the truth it's like shooting fish in a barrel, they're willfully ignorant and more than happy to let the world know it. You give this guy more credit than I ever could, he has a choice to believe the actual truth that's right in front him or not. It's just embarrassing to watch.
But those are also the views of people who are becoming less and less relevant in the bigger picture nationally and globally who are either being completely ignored or are told by their politicians and news media that they don't need to adapt. They're golden just because they are American. Republicans have largely depended on this to get votes.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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I’m a broken record on conservative media, but its only tightened its grip since Obama ran for president.
That's a huge part of the problem right there, reflexive contrarian "news". They say it's white, well I'm telling you it's black. They say it's not a problem, well I'm telling you it is. They say this rarely happens, well I'm going to show you 2 examples that proves it always happens.
 

niji

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@ericgtr12 @Edd @PearsonX @Scepticalscribe @lizkat @Chew Toy McCoy @Huntn @JayMysteri0 @SuperMatt @Thomas Veil @Alli @Clix Pix @theSeb

this is a great thread. thanks.

i think BIden will have a similar approach as Obama. and i appreciate that very much. its what is needed.

i think BIden/Harris need to ensure that the centre-most R voters who voted for trump realise that the D platform is not a socialist agenda. they were lied to by trump and R about this.
its about making Obama-care better and bringing health care costs down for everyone.

Barack was not a union guy. Biden is. Get unions stronger. And bring back jobs to red states and inner cities. Thats classic D party platform, bread & butter D. Its also 100% different from what R/trump has their voters believing.

not all trump voters are racist.
but many many many many are.
i have long thought that about 35% of USAmericans are in fact racist. i call this 35% trump's base.
but the other 15% of the electorate who voted this time for trump (the last 2 presidential elections show its about an equal split between D and R with about D50-53%/R50-47%) these 15% of the electorate must be understood and coaxed back to our D party through actual on-the-ground policies that work.
we D can and must do something to help the non-racist voters. they represent 15% of the American electorate.
we need to show them our values in action.

green policies can and will bring jobs to most states. this is Biden at his best.
effective crime and justice policies will help all of America. this is Biden at this best.
modifying Obamacare to be stronger. this is Biden at his best.

Moscow Mitch will NEVER cooperate in public with Biden. its not just trump that plans to treat the Biden admin as illegitimate. its most of the R senators as well. they won't even confirm his cabinet for many positions.
forget any public R cooperation. that's why we must win those 2 senate seats in Georgia.

we must be true to our actual D ways. we are a Big Tent party. and that must never be forgotten.

and yes. the trump-maniacs standing in front of ballot counting centres saying "so much fraud - but i don't know what fraud - but i gurantee there is fraud because trump can't lose" these people are of course just idiots. not necessarily outwardly racist idiots but idiots who tolerate racists in government. i count these idiots in with the trump base of 35% of racist Americans.
 
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PearsonX

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@ericgtr12 @Edd @PearsonX @Scepticalscribe @lizkat @Chew Toy McCoy @Huntn @JayMysteri0 @SuperMatt @Thomas Veil @Alli @Clix Pix @theSeb

this is a great thread. thanks.

i think BIden will have a similar approach as Obama. and i appreciate that very much. its what is needed.

i think BIden/Harris need to ensure that the centre-most R voters who voted for trump realise that the D platform is not a socialist agenda. they were lied to by trump and R about this.
its about making Obama-care better and bringing health care costs down for everyone.

Barack was not a union guy. Biden is. Get unions stronger. And bring back jobs to red states and inner cities. Thats classic D party platform, bread & butter D. Its also 100% different from what R/trump has their voters believing.

not all trump voters are racist.
but many many many many are.
i have long thought that about 35% of USAmericans are in fact racist. i call this 35% trump's base.
but the other 15% of the electorate who voted this time for trump (the last 2 presidential elections show its about an equal split between D and R with about D50-53%/R50-47%) these 15% of the electorate must be understood and coaxed back to our D party through actual on-the-ground policies that work.
we D can and must do something to help the non-racist voters. they represent 15% of the American electorate.
we need to show them our values in action.

green policies can and will bring jobs to most states. this is Biden at his best.
effective crime and justice policies will help all of America. this is Biden at this best.
modifying Obamacare to be stronger. this is Biden at his best.

Moscow Mitch will NEVER cooperate in public with Biden. its not just trump that plans to treat the Biden admin as illegitimate. its most of the R senators as well. they won't even confirm his cabinet for many positions.
forget any public R cooperation. that's why we must win those 2 senate seats in Georgia.

we must be true to our actual D ways. we are a Big Tent party. and that must never be forgotten.

and yes. the trump-maniacs standing in front of ballot counting centres saying "so much fraud - but i don't know what fraud - but i gurantee there is fraud because trump can't lose" these people are of course just idiots. not necessarily outwardly racist idiots but idiots who tolerate racists in government. i count these idiots in with the trump base of 35% of racist Americans.
I agree with 99% of what you are saying, but I'm a man of statistics too. It is very unlikely for those GA senate seats to go Democrats. Even one of them would be a significant success. Getting two is in the range of statistical improbability. I'm saying this because the Rs lost due to people voting Libertarian. These are the people who are R at heart, but cannot stomach Trump. Dems can only win if they get practically ALL 3rd party votes. These people who are Republican at heart will not have the same motivation with senate voting, and may even feel that as Trump is removed, the Senate needs to balance the Dems out. So unless there are vast troves of first ever voters who didn't participate in November, it will not work.

What we need to make happen in 2022 is 1) Defend the House (i'm more worried about this), and 2) Win the Senate (statistically Dems will have a decent position for such).
 

lizkat

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Yeah I think we might be stuck w/ McConnell for two years. Hope I'm wrong but just the fact that so much D money is pouring in from high and low dollar donors at the moment is likely enough to get some wavering R voters' backs up on the Georgia runoffs and they'll vote R just to show outsiders where the exit door is.

So much outside-the-state money comes off like carpetbagging, which is basically what it is. And it's more noticeable in runoffs or special elections because that's all that's on the menu for voters and kibitzers.

That said, I cheerfully bit into the December groceries for a couple bucks to both Democrats in the two Georgia runoffs. Being a carpetbagger has been fun in 2020. Gonna do it again in 2022 God willing and the creeks don't rise.
 
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