A depressing thought for progressives

Chew Toy McCoy

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If Democrats lose big in 2022 and/or lose the Presidency in 2024 the establishment won’t consider for a minute that it was over their failure to pass progressive or even widely popular legislation. They’ll come to the opposite conclusion. They’ll conclude they probably talked about it too much and failed to win over centrist and right voters. So they’ll continue to move even further to the right than they already are to court voters who aren’t insane Trumpists.

Meanwhile the American people suffer due to inaction by the Democrats and obstruction by the Republicans. Exhausting people through uncertainty, chaos, and confusion is right out of the fascist playbook so they can create a messiah people will turn to just for some sense of stability and centralized leadership. Personal rights will become secondary to this desire.

Republicans already know they can no longer have control while hiding behind a democratic sham that existed until now. So fascism it is.
 

Herdfan

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If Democrats lose big in 2022 and/or lose the Presidency in 2024 the establishment won’t consider for a minute that it was over their failure to pass progressive or even widely popular legislation. They’ll come to the opposite conclusion. They’ll conclude they probably talked about it too much and failed to win over centrist and right voters. So they’ll continue to move even further to the right than they already are to court voters who aren’t insane Trumpists.

I see it as the exact opposite. While no idea how 2024 will shake out, I think the Dems are going to get thumped in 2022, especially in the House.

It won't be because they didn't pass progressive legislation, it will be because they tried. I don't think the majority of the country is ready for some of the ultra progressive policies like Defund the Police. I also don't think they will turn right, but instead take a harder left thinking they didn't go far enough and that the people don't understand what they are trying to do. Rinse and Repeat.
 

Eric

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I see it as the exact opposite. While no idea how 2024 will shake out, I think the Dems are going to get thumped in 2022, especially in the House.

It won't be because they didn't pass progressive legislation, it will be because they tried. I don't think the majority of the country is ready for some of the ultra progressive policies like Defund the Police. I also don't think they will turn right, but instead take a harder left thinking they didn't go far enough and that the people don't understand what they are trying to do. Rinse and Repeat.
We also historical data on this that suggests the party in power almost always loses seats in the midterms, I agree here, it's not going to be pretty for Democrats. Personally, hate the thought of one party dominating everything and I know that my friends on the left may not agree but this country is basically split down the middle and both sides need representation. In the end it typically balances out.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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I see it as the exact opposite. While no idea how 2024 will shake out, I think the Dems are going to get thumped in 2022, especially in the House.

It won't be because they didn't pass progressive legislation, it will be because they tried. I don't think the majority of the country is ready for some of the ultra progressive policies like Defund the Police. I also don't think they will turn right, but instead take a harder left thinking they didn't go far enough and that the people don't understand what they are trying to do. Rinse and Repeat.

AFAIK there’s no legislation out there to defund the police. The right-wing media just can’t stop talking about it. Similarly left-wing media praises Democrats for legislation that hasn’t actually passed. So at this point people are just freaking out over hypotheticals.

I can’t think of any examples of hard left legislation that has actually passed. I’m also basing my view on the 2016 election where it is now well known the strategy was to convert right leaning voters since they felt they had lefties in the bag already. I don’t think we can get much from the 2020 election as it was mostly Trump/ists vs sane people. I don’t know if that focus is going to carry over to 2022 and beyond.
 

Herdfan

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AFAIK there’s no legislation out there to defund the police. The right-wing media just can’t stop talking about it. Similarly left-wing media praises Democrats for legislation that hasn’t actually passed. So at this point people are just freaking out over hypotheticals.

Shall the Minneapolis City Charter be amended to strike and replace the Police Department with a Department of Public Safety which could include licensed peace officers (police officers), if necessary,

If necessary? Who gets to decide necessary? I'm pretty sure I don't want to live in a city like Minneapolis if there are no licensed peace officers.

I can’t think of any examples of hard left legislation that has actually passed. I’m also basing my view on the 2016 election where it is now well known the strategy was to convert right leaning voters since they felt they had lefties in the bag already. I don’t think we can get much from the 2020 election as it was mostly Trump/ists vs sane people. I don’t know if that focus is going to carry over to 2022 and beyond.

There hasn't been much, if any. Doesn't stop them from trying. And talking about it, turning off 70-80% of the country that isn't ultra progressive.

I think Afghanistan is going to hurt the Dems in 2022 even though most rank and file members had nothing to do with it. That plus inflation, which can easily be hung on an incumbent President Even if they really aren't responsible, they do get hung with it. Facebook will be full of posts of gas prices on November 6th 2020 and gas prices today. People are stupid and will eat it up.

Now 2024 will be a different story. Will we still be dealing with COVID? Has then been a major terror attack on US soil? How is the economy? Way too many unknowns to project out that far.
 

SuperMatt

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I see it as the exact opposite. While no idea how 2024 will shake out, I think the Dems are going to get thumped in 2022, especially in the House.

It won't be because they didn't pass progressive legislation, it will be because they tried. I don't think the majority of the country is ready for some of the ultra progressive policies like Defund the Police. I also don't think they will turn right, but instead take a harder left thinking they didn't go far enough and that the people don't understand what they are trying to do. Rinse and Repeat.

If anybody takes a truly honest look at where politics sit on the right/left spectrum, they’d see that even Reagan, the right-wing hero would be too far left to be a Republican by today’s standards. Can you imagine a right-winger today offering amnesty to immigrants? Liz Cheney isn’t far right enough to be a true Republican anymore for crying out loud.

When your party is that far to the right, moderate people appear to be far-left.

Asking for strong measures on climate change and healthcare for all Americans is not a far-left idea. Almost every country with similar amounts of GDP per capita has healthcare provided for their citizens.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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If necessary? Who gets to decide necessary? I'm pretty sure I don't want to live in a city like Minneapolis if there are no licensed peace officers.

I don't think even you believe it would be a zero police with nobody enforcing laws situation. To me it sounds like an interesting alternative that removes the burden from the police for some situations that they even agree they aren't equipped to handle, especially as the nation becomes increasingly mentally unstable. If anything it's a good example of what defund the police was supposed to mean, reallocating funds to different departments that are better equipped to handle specific public safety issues. I don't think you would have an issue with that. If somebody in your family is having a mental breakdown that could include some level of non-lifethreating violence I assume you wouldn't want the people showing up to have shooting them as their first trained response.
 

SuperMatt

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If necessary? Who gets to decide necessary? I'm pretty sure I don't want to live in a city like Minneapolis if there are no licensed peace officers.



There hasn't been much, if any. Doesn't stop them from trying. And talking about it, turning off 70-80% of the country that isn't ultra progressive.

I think Afghanistan is going to hurt the Dems in 2022 even though most rank and file members had nothing to do with it. That plus inflation, which can easily be hung on an incumbent President Even if they really aren't responsible, they do get hung with it. Facebook will be full of posts of gas prices on November 6th 2020 and gas prices today. People are stupid and will eat it up.

Now 2024 will be a different story. Will we still be dealing with COVID? Has then been a major terror attack on US soil? How is the economy? Way too many unknowns to project out that far.
Ilhan Omar doesn’t care what people outside of her district think. That should be extremely obvious by now. She doesn’t care what 70-80% of the country thinks. She answers to her constituents. She is going to support what they want. That is how the system works.

Did you have plans to retire to Minnesota and you suddenly cancelled them because you think it’s going to be “Lord of the Flies” there without the Minneapolis Police?

This proposal has little to do with anybody outside of Minneapolis. Right-wing media is trying to get people hot and bothered about it, but one can see it doesn’t eliminate police.

Considering the history of the police in Minneapolis, will anybody shed a tear for the force being disassembled and replaced with something else?

Will there be some erstwhile Democrats in Arkansas who flip out about Ilhan Omar and switch their vote to Republican? Possible but unlikely. Just like there might be Republicans in Connecticut who decide to vote Democrat when they see right-wing politicians from Alabama doing things that appeal to their base. I doubt either is likely. They will be voting for the representative in their district.

It’s funny to me that the people most opposed to the ”defund” movement don’t live anywhere near the cities where such things are being proposed. And the (intentional?) misunderstanding of what defund generally means when it comes down to policy is part of this too. Any jurisdiction looking at “defunding“ the police is talking about diverting some resources away from police forces towards mental health response units, social workers, etc. while simultaneously removing responsibilities from the police to handle those situations for which they are ill-equipped.
 

Herdfan

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Ilhan Omar doesn’t care what people outside of her district think. That should be extremely obvious by now. She doesn’t care what 70-80% of the country thinks. She answers to her constituents. She is going to support what they want. That is how the system works.

Did you have plans to retire to Minnesota and you suddenly cancelled them because you think it’s going to be “Lord of the Flies” there without the Minneapolis Police?

This proposal has little to do with anybody outside of Minneapolis. Right-wing media is trying to get people hot and bothered about it, but one can see it doesn’t eliminate police.

Considering the history of the police in Minneapolis, will anybody shed a tear for the force being disassembled and replaced with something else?

Will there be some erstwhile Democrats in Arkansas who flip out about Ilhan Omar and switch their vote to Republican? Possible but unlikely. Just like there might be Republicans in Connecticut who decide to vote Democrat when they see right-wing politicians from Alabama doing things that appeal to their base. I doubt either is likely. They will be voting for the representative in their district.

It’s funny to me that the people most opposed to the ”defund” movement don’t live anywhere near the cities where such things are being proposed. And the (intentional?) misunderstanding of what defund generally means when it comes down to policy is part of this too. Any jurisdiction looking at “defunding“ the police is talking about diverting some resources away from police forces towards mental health response units, social workers, etc. while simultaneously removing responsibilities from the police to handle those situations for which they are ill-equipped.

What I think is irrelevant. @Chew Toy McCoy said:

AFAIK there’s no legislation out there to defund the police. The right-wing media just can’t stop talking about it. Similarly left-wing media praises Democrats for legislation that hasn’t actually passed. So at this point people are just freaking out over hypotheticals.

I was just showing him there was. And you confirmed I wasn't just reading it wrong. So thank you!
 

SuperMatt

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What I think is irrelevant. @Chew Toy McCoy said:



I was just showing him there was. And you confirmed I wasn't just reading it wrong. So thank you!
This is not federal legislation. It is just the city of Minneapolis. Perhaps you can explain how this will affect federal Congressional elections, because I’m not seeing it. This thread is about the 2022 Congressional elections... not Minneapolis city council elections. “Defund” already happened in some cities before, but again - that is not related to elections for the House or Senate.
 

Herdfan

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This is not federal legislation. It is just the city of Minneapolis. Perhaps you can explain how this will affect federal Congressional elections, because I’m not seeing it. This thread is about the 2022 Congressional elections... not Minneapolis city council elections. “Defund” already happened in some cities before, but again - that is not related to elections for the House or Senate.

Because I can guarantee you the GOP will try to hang the whole Defund the Police movement on the Dems. So when you have a sitting House member supporting it, it is not too far of a stretch.
 

SuperMatt

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Because I can guarantee you the GOP will try to hang the whole Defund the Police movement on the Dems. So when you have a sitting House member supporting it, it is not too far of a stretch.
One Democrat supporting “defund" is somehow the end of the world to the GOP base... but a majority of their caucus supporting the overturning of a free and fair election is “hey cool!". Just more evidence of how full of 💩 Republicans are.
 

Thomas Veil

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One Democrat supporting “defund" is somehow the end of the world to the GOP base... but a majority of their caucus supporting the overturning of a free and fair election is “hey cool!".
Exactly.

"Defund the police" is going absolutely nowhere in Congress, or anywhere else except possibly Minneapolis, no matter how loud a handful of members scream.

That is, however, going to stop Republicans from running around with their hair on fire acting as if the apocalypse is upon us. It is the old GOP trick of focusing on one small issue and making it look like Godzilla stomping Tokyo into the ground.

On the other hand, Republicans (on a state basis) have shown success at passing legislation to fix elections and just about ban abortion. Those are genuine existential threats to the Constitution and to women's right to choose. They are far right positions, and the GOP has a good shot at following through on them not because they represent the will of the people, but because they keep rigging the election process to keep their own party in office.
 

SuperMatt

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Exactly.

"Defund the police" is going absolutely nowhere in Congress, or anywhere else except possibly Minneapolis, no matter how loud a handful of members scream.

That is, however, going to stop Republicans from running around with their hair on fire acting as if the apocalypse is upon us. It is the old GOP trick of focusing on one small issue and making it look like Godzilla stomping Tokyo into the ground.

On the other hand, Republicans (on a state basis) have shown success at passing legislation to fix elections and just about ban abortion. Those are genuine existential threats to the Constitution and to women's right to choose. They are far right positions, and the GOP has a good shot at following through on them not because they represent the will of the people, but because they keep rigging the election process to keep their own party in office.
The fact that it’s about Ilhan Omar is even more interesting. Don’t forget, a lot of Republicans still think Obama is bad because he is a “Muslim sympathizer,” so what do you expect their opinion of an actual Muslim to be? Trump’s campaign promise to ban Muslims from coming to America was very popular among his voters. Freedom of religion only means freedom of Christians to them apparently.
 

Herdfan

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One Democrat supporting “defund" is somehow the end of the world to the GOP base... but a majority of their caucus supporting the overturning of a free and fair election is “hey cool!". Just more evidence of how full of 💩 Republicans are.

They still get to vote. So matter how much you disagree with the whole premise, the GOP is going to do its best to tie this to Dems. Politics is ugly.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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Exactly.

"Defund the police" is going absolutely nowhere in Congress, or anywhere else except possibly Minneapolis, no matter how loud a handful of members scream.

That is, however, going to stop Republicans from running around with their hair on fire acting as if the apocalypse is upon us. It is the old GOP trick of focusing on one small issue and making it look like Godzilla stomping Tokyo into the ground.

On the other hand, Republicans (on a state basis) have shown success at passing legislation to fix elections and just about ban abortion. Those are genuine existential threats to the Constitution and to women's right to choose. They are far right positions, and the GOP has a good shot at following through on them not because they represent the will of the people, but because they keep rigging the election process to keep their own party in office.

If Republicans keep getting wins and there’s no political (or legal) cost then there’s no incentive for them to stop. They couldn’t give less of a shit about the constitution or specific rights they don’t agree with. You don’t win against “I don’t give a shit” with “Well, you should” with these people. Insulting them more is just going to entrench them further.

If you want to win these people over (and yes, they do need to be won over) then you need to show empathy and understanding of their problems even if you completely disagree with what they think the reasons and solutions are. Start from there. The biggest threat to our fucked up system is people uniting over shared problems regardless of personal politics. Step back and remember somebody calling you an idiot didn’t persuade you to their side of view either.

I shall no go to another thread to rant about idiots. 🙃
 
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I see it as the exact opposite. While no idea how 2024 will shake out, I think the Dems are going to get thumped in 2022, especially in the House.

It won't be because they didn't pass progressive legislation, it will be because they tried. I don't think the majority of the country is ready for some of the ultra progressive policies like Defund the Police. I also don't think they will turn right, but instead take a harder left thinking they didn't go far enough and that the people don't understand what they are trying to do. Rinse and Repeat.
Nah, Americans don't fix issues, just segregate them*. We all know if we want to fix gun violence on all levels, we should maybe figure out something so there aren't millions and millions of "lost" guns floating around.

As said above, the GOP is so far right, they are ranked on the same end of right as some parties in the EU that were founded by former neonazi skinheads (I wish I made this up...).


*Like poverty, gang violence, HIV, COVID or climate change.
 
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SuperMatt

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They still get to vote. So matter how much you disagree with the whole premise, the GOP is going to do its best to tie this to Dems. Politics is ugly.
Sure, people in Wyoming can anger-vote for their right-wing candidate as a protest against Ilhan Omar. However, it‘s not going to move the needle. The contested races in districts that aren’t “safe” for one party or the other are where seats can flip. I argue that moderates in those “swing” districts probably aren’t even aware of this situation in Minnesota. The people who are tracking stuff like this and are angry about it are already entrenched republicans.
 

MEJHarrison

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“Defund” already happened in some cities before...

From everything I've read, the Cahoots program in Eugene OR has been a huge success for over 30 years now. This is one of my favorite topics and I can go on and on. But this isn't the place for that, so I'll just say Google it if you're interested in what a successful Defund the Police program looks like.
 
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Sure, people in Wyoming can anger-vote for their right-wing candidate as a protest against Ilhan Omar. However, it‘s not going to move the needle. The contested races in districts that aren’t “safe” for one party or the other are where seats can flip. I argue that moderates in those “swing” districts probably aren’t even aware of this situation in Minnesota. The people who are tracking stuff like this and are angry about it are already entrenched republicans.
I'll add that we reached the level of absurdity most of us had seen coming. Republicans are dying at such disproportionate rate that may actually impact house seats with narrow margins.
 
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