Biden kills Keystone XL pipeline, Canada has mixed reactions

lizkat

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Officially, Canada accepts that Biden had that option. In the oil sands provinces, they're unhappy.

Well not all of "them" are unhappy. These critters understand they won one.

and the winners are... .jpg
 
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lizkat

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And furthermore....


As a candidate, Mr. Biden had said he would push the country to “transition away from the oil industry” because of its pollution, and he has acted more swiftly and broadly to do that than many expected.

In addition to the moratorium on oil and gas leasing, Mr. Biden is expected to set a goal of protecting 30% of federal land and water by 2030, the people said. The president is also planning to re-establish a White House council of science advisers that was established during the Obama administration. Mr. Biden’s plans were reported earlier by Bloomberg News and other publications.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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Well, unless he plans to lay waste to what has already been built, I feel like we're heading into a long history of undo/redo by new presidents when the party switches.

My only possible comfort is that Trumpism may split the Republican party to the point that they are no longer viable in a national election.
 
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lizkat

lizkat

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Well, unless he plans to lay waste to what has already been built, I feel like we're heading into a long history of undo/redo by new presidents when the party switches.

My only possible comfort is that Trumpism may split the Republican party to the point that they are no longer viable in a national election.

Well taking those in reverse order.. first of all yeah I hope he does split the party... but I read today that McCarthy is meeting with Trump in Florida soon and I would expect will be trying to find a way to keep the hassle with Liz Cheney and similar minded Republicans in the House smoothed over and not hostile to Trump at least in the short term.

As for the raft of EOs Trump signed and now Biden signs to reverse, it may not be such a precedent setting thing for our future. It may look that way now, but primarily because Trump was about cosmetics and wrote up more EOs with fewer legislative backups than are usual.

Congress declined to back up many of the EOs Trump signed that did require further underwriting by that branch of government. As a result, Biden has far less trouble reversing by EO what Trump did not manage to convert into lasting policy changes. Even one of his own former advisor had joked that everything except the judicial picks would be gone by sunrise this past Monday. Not quite true, but that pile of EOs Biden is tackling is quite a stack. Some will end up in court. A lot of Trump's did as well.

On the matter of the pipeline halt: oil sands extraction in Canada is a fairly dirty process involving strip mining, heavy reliance on fresh water supplies while producing both toxic emissions, toxic tailings and waste ponds that threaten migrating birds. It's also a fairly expensive process for those very reasons (or to mitigate them), at least compared to the less well tested but far less disruptive and less toxic extraction process that has been tried in Utah, involving recyclable solvents in a closed system. But it has remained to be seen whether the latter process could profitably be scaled up. Last time I looked into it, only thing I noticed was the company that was trying that out had changed its name from one alphabuzz combo to another...

Process aside, the product that would be shipped via the planned pipeline to the US Gulf of Mexico is diluted bitumen, a problematic fluid in that health risks due to ruptures and emissions at pumping stations are not fully understood.

So when speaking of "laying waste" to what has already been built, it's important to take into consideration what could be laid to waste if the pipeline were to be completed and put into operation.

As for the loss incurred due to project halt: most work on the pipeline extension had already been stopped prior to launch of the Biden administration due to anticipation that the permit would be rolled back. It's true that around 150km of line had already been constructed in Alberta, so yes, TC Energy has now encountered a material downside it had warned could be incurred, and it has said it will not now proceed to lay line in Saskatchewan. Only about 2km of line was laid across the US border as a symbolic move after the Trump administration had withdrawn regulatory resistance.

If we want to get real about climate change mitigation, it's important to leave as much fossil fuel in the ground as possible, and focus on renewables for energy production. To meet demand for plastics, we should already be reserving petroleum-based formulations for critical supplies like IV tubing snd not be using it needlessly for making toys, or even in consumer products packaging in most instances.
 

Eraserhead

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Well, unless he plans to lay waste to what has already been built, I feel like we're heading into a long history of undo/redo by new presidents when the party switches.

My only possible comfort is that Trumpism may split the Republican party to the point that they are no longer viable in a national election.
We must be pretty close to peak oil. The real danger with keystone xl is that it’ll never actually be used to full capacity so will leak a lot more than other pipelines as the rough edges won’t be fixed.

Micro mobility (e bikes etc) and electric cars are coming pretty fast down the track. Micromobility makes it much easier to handle gaps in public transport than before and electric cars are pretty close to cost neutral with petrol cars over their lifetime.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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I understand the environmental and climate reasons for stopping it, but also something needs to be done about the "thousands of jobs lost!" narrative, and it can't be some "If we don't act now there won't be a planet left to have a job on!" hyperbole. Like get these thousands of people renewable energy jobs asap.

The best way to keep policy from being reversed by another administration is to also put something in that's popular and/or successful making the detractors look like super villains if they try to reverse it. The main reason, and I'd argue the only reason, Obamacare wasn't repealed and replaced is because it's already full of corruption goodies for their donors. Republicans couldn't outdo those and they sure as fuck aren't going to offer something that actually serves the people better. The end result, we still have some semblance of a public health option to improve on.
 

SuperMatt

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I understand the environmental and climate reasons for stopping it, but also something needs to be done about the "thousands of jobs lost!" narrative, and it can't be some "If we don't act now there won't be a planet left to have a job on!" hyperbole. Like get these thousands of people renewable energy jobs asap.

The best way to keep policy from being reversed by another administration is to also put something in that's popular and/or successful making the detractors look like super villains if they try to reverse it. The main reason, and I'd argue the only reason, Obamacare wasn't repealed and replaced is because it's already full of corruption goodies for their donors. Republicans couldn't outdo those and they sure as fuck aren't going to offer something that actually serves the people better. The end result, we still have some semblance of a public health option to improve on.
The job gains from spinning up alternative energy sources, improving infrastructure, etc... will dwarf the minor job losses from cancelling that pipeline.
 
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We must be pretty close to peak oil. The real danger with keystone xl is that it’ll never actually be used to full capacity so will leak a lot more than other pipelines as the rough edges won’t be fixed.

Micro mobility (e bikes etc) and electric cars are coming pretty fast down the track. Micromobility makes it much easier to handle gaps in public transport than before and electric cars are pretty close to cost neutral with petrol cars over their lifetime.
Once people realize how much more fun it is to drive an electric car, nobody will want the rumble of ICE cars back.

Well taking those in reverse order.. first of all yeah I hope he does split the party... but I read today that McCarthy is meeting with Trump in Florida soon and I would expect will be trying to find a way to keep the hassle with Liz Cheney and similar minded Republicans in the House smoothed over and not hostile to Trump at least in the short term.

As for the raft of EOs Trump signed and now Biden signs to reverse, it may not be such a precedent setting thing for our future. It may look that way now, but primarily because Trump was about cosmetics and wrote up more EOs with fewer legislative backups than are usual.

Congress declined to back up many of the EOs Trump signed that did require further underwriting by that branch of government. As a result, Biden has far less trouble reversing by EO what Trump did not manage to convert into lasting policy changes. Even one of his own former advisor had joked that everything except the judicial picks would be gone by sunrise this past Monday. Not quite true, but that pile of EOs Biden is tackling is quite a stack. Some will end up in court. A lot of Trump's did as well.

On the matter of the pipeline halt: oil sands extraction in Canada is a fairly dirty process involving strip mining, heavy reliance on fresh water supplies while producing both toxic emissions, toxic tailings and waste ponds that threaten migrating birds. It's also a fairly expensive process for those very reasons (or to mitigate them), at least compared to the less well tested but far less disruptive and less toxic extraction process that has been tried in Utah, involving recyclable solvents in a closed system. But it has remained to be seen whether the latter process could profitably be scaled up. Last time I looked into it, only thing I noticed was the company that was trying that out had changed its name from one alphabuzz combo to another...

Process aside, the product that would be shipped via the planned pipeline to the US Gulf of Mexico is diluted bitumen, a problematic fluid in that health risks due to ruptures and emissions at pumping stations are not fully understood.

So when speaking of "laying waste" to what has already been built, it's important to take into consideration what could be laid to waste if the pipeline were to be completed and put into operation.

As for the loss incurred due to project halt: most work on the pipeline extension had already been stopped prior to launch of the Biden administration due to anticipation that the permit would be rolled back. It's true that around 150km of line had already been constructed in Alberta, so yes, TC Energy has now encountered a material downside it had warned could be incurred, and it has said it will not now proceed to lay line in Saskatchewan. Only about 2km of line was laid across the US border as a symbolic move after the Trump administration had withdrawn regulatory resistance.

If we want to get real about climate change mitigation, it's important to leave as much fossil fuel in the ground as possible, and focus on renewables for energy production. To meet demand for plastics, we should already be reserving petroleum-based formulations for critical supplies like IV tubing snd not be using it needlessly for making toys, or even in consumer products packaging in most instances.
These news are actually making me very happy because this is the only issue more important than COVID.
 
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lizkat

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The job gains from spinning up alternative energy sources, improving infrastructure, etc... will dwarf the minor job losses from cancelling that pipeline.

Yes and not only are the pipeline construction jobs temporary, their estimate appears to have mushroomed over time. Per a CNN report when Trump had signed off on the pipeline, there was once a State Department estimate during the Obama administration of "3,900 direct construction jobs if it was built over one year, or 1,950 if the work was spread over two years."

So it was only later that people talked about 11000 jobs. I figure that's because of the indirect jobs component of the construction work, also temporary. And once that thing was built some said only around 35 to 50 full time jobs would exist. Some said more. Highest estimate I saw there was 300 if regulations about pumping station emissions and inspections went back to full enforcement.

Tempest in a cancelled pipeline or tempest in a teapot? Either way Biden needs to get some jobs visibly turning up, so to be able to put this tin of red herring back in the cupboard.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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The job gains from spinning up alternative energy sources, improving infrastructure, etc... will dwarf the minor job losses from cancelling that pipeline.
Once people realize how much more fun it is to drive an electric car, nobody will want the rumble of ICE cars back.


These news are actually making me very happy because this is the only issue more important than COVID.

We need to see some big positive changes in the next 6 months or so. There are still plenty of loons and rubes out there ready to return us to obstruction and Trumpville via midterm elections.

I don't think you can rest comfortably just seeing some things you agree with being pushed to the front of the queue now. I don't think we can take our eye off Trumpism or something like it until Trump or somebody like him runs for top office again and gets definitively crushed in the election. If the last 3 days of Republican rhetoric and action is any indicator, they aren't exactly interested in removing that cancer.
 

thekev

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So it was only later that people talked about 11000 jobs. I figure that's because of the indirect jobs component of the construction work, also temporary. And once that thing was built some said only around 35 to 50 full time jobs would exist. Some said more. Highest estimate I saw there was 300 if regulations about pumping station emissions and inspections went back to full enforcement.

It's the result of applying a disingenuous analysis to the thing. If they were forced to actually employ 11,000 people for the next 5-10 years upon making such a claim, they would back away from it. There aren't any real downsides to using such claims to apply political pressure.
 
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We need to see some big positive changes in the next 6 months or so. There are still plenty of loons and rubes out there ready to return us to obstruction and Trumpville via midterm elections.

I don't think you can rest comfortably just seeing some things you agree with being pushed to the front of the queue now. I don't think we can take our eye off Trumpism or something like it until Trump or somebody like him runs for top office again and gets definitively crushed in the election. If the last 3 days of Republican rhetoric and action is any indicator, they aren't exactly interested in removing that cancer.
Trump has a limited longevity. I'd be shocked if he'd stay in well-enough shape to run in 2024, TBH.
I agree however, it's not over yet.
 

SuperMatt

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It's the result of applying a disingenuous analysis to the thing. If they were forced to actually employ 11,000 people for the next 5-10 years upon making such a claim, they would back away from it. There aren't any real downsides to using such claims to apply political pressure.
The keystone jobs have not been lost. They never existed. Phantom jobs. The same as these infamous 30,000 jobs in Wisconsin.


I say completely ignore the whining from the right about the phantom lost Keystone jobs. They don’t seem to give a flying frack about the Wisconsin disaster, and will instantly change the topic if you bring it up. Or, if they say it, just mention the 30,000 Foxconn jobs that so far are actually only 281.
 

thekev

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The keystone jobs have not been lost. They never existed. Phantom jobs. The same as these infamous 30,000 jobs in Wisconsin.


I say completely ignore the whining from the right about the phantom lost Keystone jobs. They don’t seem to give a flying frack about the Wisconsin disaster, and will instantly change the topic if you bring it up. Or, if they say it, just mention the 30,000 Foxconn jobs that so far are actually only 281.

Classic example of disingenuous reasoning. Wisconsin should probably structure their contingencies based on tax receipts or something harder to game. If they haven't rescinded such benefits, they probably should.
 

Eraserhead

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I understand the environmental and climate reasons for stopping it, but also something needs to be done about the "thousands of jobs lost!" narrative, and it can't be some "If we don't act now there won't be a planet left to have a job on!" hyperbole. Like get these thousands of people renewable energy jobs asap.

The best way to keep policy from being reversed by another administration is to also put something in that's popular and/or successful making the detractors look like super villains if they try to reverse it. The main reason, and I'd argue the only reason, Obamacare wasn't repealed and replaced is because it's already full of corruption goodies for their donors. Republicans couldn't outdo those and they sure as fuck aren't going to offer something that actually serves the people better. The end result, we still have some semblance of a public health option to improve on.
It wasn’t repealed because even the republicans couldn’t take healthcare away from 20-30 million Americans. And they had no alternative plan because Obamacare is the Republican plan.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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It wasn’t repealed because even the republicans couldn’t take healthcare away from 20-30 million Americans. And they had no alternative plan because Obamacare is the Republican plan.

That's what I'm saying. Expedite moving fossil fuel and manufacturing workers to renewable energy and infrastructure jobs. So if the Republicans gain control again they can't sell their lies about saving those jobs or bringing them back because nobody will care.
 
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That's what I'm saying. Expedite moving fossil fuel and manufacturing workers to renewable energy and infrastructure jobs. So if the Republicans gain control again they can't sell their lies about saving those jobs or bringing them back because nobody will care.
Irony is, even during the Trump admin, there were more solar jobs created than coal jobs (which ended net neg AFAIK).
It would be great to have coal miners retrained and employed in solar/renewable programs.
 

Edd

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Trump has a limited longevity. I'd be shocked if he'd stay in well-enough shape to run in 2024, TBH.
I agree however, it's not over yet.
Feel the same about Biden myself.

About him, I’m getting the sense he’ll be more progressive than I initially believed. He’s old and may give zero fucks anymore.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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Irony is, even during the Trump admin, there were more solar jobs created than coal jobs (which ended net neg AFAIK).
It would be great to have coal miners retrained and employed in solar/renewable programs.

The Republican’s main job is to obstruct change until their rich donors have bled every last penny out of an industry.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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Feel the same about Biden myself.

About him, I’m getting the sense he’ll be more progressive than I initially believed. He’s old and may give zero fucks anymore.

Since it looks like the Republicans are going to refuse to hold Trump accountable with the second impeachment, that will free up Biden to do whatever the fuck he wants in the last couple of weeks of his presidency with zero accountability. He might go crazy and do something that is popular among the common citizens.
 
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