Billionaire Space Race Fight

lizkat

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There are good billionaires and multi-billionaires? o_O

Heh, well at least Jack Dorsey threw Trump off Twitter for keeps.

Scanning through the 2020 list of Forbes billionaires though, I see the point of your skepticism. Some of them do generous things and for the public good with some of their money, for sure, but how got the dough to do that can be a less attractive part of their stories.

 

B S Magnet

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Heh, well at least Jack Dorsey threw Trump off Twitter for keeps.

That isn’t even a low bar. That’s the complete absence of a bar.

There are no immanently “good” billionaires or even multi-millionaires. The only feature having the distinction of monetary wealth correctly connotes is a hoarding problem which capitalism waives as such.

Scanning through the 2020 list of Forbes billionaires though, I see the point of your skepticism. Some of them do generous things and for the public good with some of their money, for sure, but how got the dough to do that can be a less attractive part of their stories.

Philanthropy for the multi-millionaire or billionaire is a kind of laundering, and with it comes enabling kickbacks (tax deductions and breaks being the implicit driver) which serve the private self-interest of the philanthropist via their public gestures of benevolence.
 

Yoused

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As I see it, we can argue all we want about good and evil, but for every item we can catalogue, there always may be debate about which side of the ledger each belongs on. Which is to say, a thing that I call evil may well be seen as good by another party. There is simply no objective way to declare the moral validity of just about anything.

The metric I use to assess these things is power. "Evil" cannot be effected in absence of some sort of imbalance of power. The more power you see associated with a thing, the more likely that thing is ultimately toward the "evil" side.

Now consider that no person needs a billion dollars. At around $20 million or so the multi-millionaire is pretty well set and not needing more to satisfy their personal needs. Once they are pursuing a hundred million and beyond, it is no longer really about money, it is about power. What else does a billion dollars represent except your power over other people.

And since power fuels the worst in us, the billionaire situation cannot be good. Nevermind the fact that the wealthier people are, the more out of touch with reality they become. Hence, the power in our society is being wielded by those least equipped for the task.
 

B S Magnet

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Now consider that no person needs a billion dollars. At around $20 million or so the multi-millionaire is pretty well set and not needing more to satisfy their personal needs. Once they are pursuing a hundred million and beyond, it is no longer really about money, it is about power. What else does a billion dollars represent except your power over other people.

From this vantage, the hoarding of money and the hoarding of power become indistinguishable.
 

Scepticalscribe

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I'm a huge fan of space travel, and technology and all the amazing things that came from the investments in the space race of my youth.

...but I'm totally 110% turned off by the billionaire c**k measuring contest here.

There are so many incredibly serious and heartbreaking issues impacting us all here on Earth that any mega billionaire with any sense of gratitude and empathy should be trying to solve.

I'm sorry. I know many like Tesla's as cars and probably conflate that love with Elon himself.

But I find Elon, Richard and Jeff to be sociopathic egomaniacs with zero redeeming qualities at all.
We wouldn't spend one moment of air time on guys like this if they hadn't tax avoided and hoarded their way to mega wealth.

It's disgusting.

Just the few media clips I saw and heard re: Branson the other day made me want to vomit.
The "script" they wrote and gave to Colbert was the most laughably out of touch and self centered bunch of BS.

It was like the Onion wrote it to be satirical.
My sentiments exactly, and very well said.

I love - and have always loved, and thrilled to - space travel, exploration, technology, (the moon landings, trips to Mars, NASA, the Voyager fly-pasts, etc) - and adored the Star Trek universe, but this is just disgusting, narcissistic, self-indulgent and sociopathic behaviour.
 
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Scepticalscribe

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An excellent thread, by the way, and the well argued and thoughtfully expressed contributions are one of the reasons that I like this site so much.

The fact that I find myself in complete agreement with almost everything that has been posted in this thread, probably has something to do with it, as well.
 

quagmire

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I'm a huge fan of space travel, and technology and all the amazing things that came from the investments in the space race of my youth.

...but I'm totally 110% turned off by the billionaire c**k measuring contest here.

There are so many incredibly serious and heartbreaking issues impacting us all here on Earth that any mega billionaire with any sense of gratitude and empathy should be trying to solve.

I'm sorry. I know many like Tesla's as cars and probably conflate that love with Elon himself.

But I find Elon, Richard and Jeff to be sociopathic egomaniacs with zero redeeming qualities at all.
We wouldn't spend one moment of air time on guys like this if they hadn't tax avoided and hoarded their way to mega wealth.

It's disgusting.

Just the few media clips I saw and heard re: Branson the other day made me want to vomit.
The "script" they wrote and gave to Colbert was the most laughably out of touch and self centered bunch of BS.

It was like the Onion wrote it to be satirical.

No doubt Elon is a sociopathic egomaniac himself, but unlike with Bezos and Branson SpaceX's goal isn't about sending Elon himself up to space. If it was Musk would already be booked on one of the private crew Dragon missions. Elon's focus is getting people to Mars and bringing the cost of space down.

For the most part Starship is privately funded( Starship has yet to see money from its HLS award due to Blue Origin's protest) so it isn't like we are seeing taxpayer money being spent to send Elon to space.

Again Elon can be an asshole to anyone that dares to get in his way( see his response to COVID restrictions preventing him from operating Fremont to build cars). So I am not trying to be an Elon fanboy here. But SpaceX has a different focus than being involved in this billionaire's space race fight like Virgin Galactic and Blue Origin.

Also for those that are fans of the Apollo program and old enough to be around during its day, can you recall your views of it back then? Because I think a lot tend to forget the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo programs were under water in their public perception with many citing what you're currently citing as to why this race to space is disgusting due to current issues here on Earth, etc. It wasn't until the 80's did public view start to turn and Apollo had positive polling.
 

lizkat

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That isn’t even a low bar. That’s the complete absence of a bar.

There are no immanently “good” billionaires or even multi-millionaires. The only feature having the distinction of monetary wealth correctly connotes is a hoarding problem which capitalism waives as such.



Philanthropy for the multi-millionaire or billionaire is a kind of laundering, and with it comes enabling kickbacks (tax deductions and breaks being the implicit driver) which serve the private self-interest of the philanthropist via their public gestures of benevolence.

Points taken except that in the back of my mind I'll never be ungrateful for the existence of some of the results of outsized philanthropic gestures, even if they were about laundering money, or at least trying to offset public distaste for how rich guys made their dough.

Personally I'm able to separate how I feel about a CEO having a thumb on the competition and hauling off a fat share of the company's profits, versus how I feel about the existence of a medical facility or a library or museum into which that deep-pocketed person dumps some of that too much dough.

It's the wealthy individual's choice within the law to do whatever he wants with his disposable funds. Whether the laws should be how they are is another question. A further question of course is how much of law is written for the upper crust to begin with, or enforced with a wrist slap to the rich later on if a law is broken and proves inconvenient.​

Now to me it seems true, as some will argue, that most plain Americans are not going to avail themselves of a particular symphony hall or hospital wing or an art museum, and so by the extremely wealthy not paying their fair share of taxes, they end up with dough to spend "philanthropically" that in fact may only benefit other pretty wealthy people. I mean not that many of us land in box seats in some orchestra hall on a regular basis, right? If higher taxes were paid instead by these wealthy individuals, it's possible every American might benefit by how we ourselves ---through our elected officials in Congress-- might decide to spend that money.

And It's also true that "no good deed goes unpunished". So for instance, even with the acknowledged beneficial impact that money from Bill Gates and his wife have made in reducing deaths from malaria, AIDS and TB in countries of sub-Saharan Africa, it's been noted that there are "unintended victims" of that largesse , in that the Gates-funded efforts can end up negatively disrupting overall function of healthcare facilities and their resources.


Still, I see more public benefit to what Gates has done with his monies pumped into that foundation versus what Bezos has done with some well-publicized philanthropic grants made just in advance of his privatized suborbital space adventure...


These guys are always going to do something with a chunk of their money besides just pass it on to heirs. That at least some of it ends up in the public square is a plus. That more of it could end up in the public square if we insisted that Congress revisit "tax reform", well... that's up to the voters.
 

SuperMatt

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Interesting video talking about how the “self-made billionaire” is a myth.



Most people will probably know that most billionaires started with a big chunk of inherited wealth, or that they exploit workers to get super rich. But I didn’t consider how much direct help the government gives them. Elon Musk who constantly whines about the government gladly takes about $5 billion from them for SpaceX.
 

quagmire

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Interesting video talking about how the “self-made billionaire” is a myth.



Most people will probably know that most billionaires started with a big chunk of inherited wealth, or that they exploit workers to get super rich. But I didn’t consider how much direct help the government gives them. Elon Musk who constantly whines about the government gladly takes about $5 billion from them for SpaceX.


In return the government gets a product. A lot cheaper than the cost plus programs do( SLS/Orion).

Musk’s issue is companies getting tossed money for nothing in return. The $5 billion SpaceX gets us sending astronauts to the ISS, goes towards development of the lander that will put astronauts back on the moon as a part of the Artemis program, etc. It’s not just tossed to SpaceX. A lot cheaper than the competition too. Boeing’s contract for Starliner is $4.6 billion. SpaceX’s for crew dragon is $2.1 I believe. SpaceX’s bid for HLS with starship was around $3-4 billion while the closest bidder Blue Origin was around $7-8 billion.
 

DT

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I've seen financial analysis of a millionaire vs. a billionaire, and it's astounding the difference [...]

= Temporarily edited for future revision =
 
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SuperMatt

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I've seen financial analysis of a millionaire vs. a billionaire, and it's astounding the difference, even though really reductive math might suggest otherwise, i..e, 100K to 1M is 10X, and while 1M to 1B is also a factor of 10, the investment/capital, call it, "financial energy" required is so much more, it's nearly impossible to do it having started from 0 (if that makes sense).
1 million to 1 billion is a factor of 1000, not 10.
 

DT

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1 million to 1 billion is a factor of 1000, not 10.

Yep, clearly, blew through and attempted to summarize a slightly more complicated article and got the math/general concept all F-ed up. I'll revise later.

(Short version: many of us can reach "self-made" millionaire status, billionaire is nearly unattainable without a significant jumpstart so to speak).
 
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