Derailed into transgender sports thread.

Chew Toy McCoy

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This will probably be an ongoing thread as Fox's "No other news source is talking about this (to our slanted level of apoplectic outrage)!!! So we're going to beat it into the dirt with an onslaught of articles at the top of our site!" focus changes.

Currently it's Cuomo's Covid F'up and coverup. 10 related articles at the top for you.

Edit: Fixed the thread title. Carry on.
 
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This will probably be an ongoing thread as Fox's "No other news source is talking about this (to our slanted level of apoplectic outrage)!!! So we're going to beat it into the dirt with an onslaught of articles at the top of our site!" focus changes.

Currently it's Cuomo's Covid F'up and coverup. 10 related articles at the top for you.
Cuomo deserves some heat for for not clarifying the NH mortality data appropriately (NY isn't the only state that didn't include hospital deaths in their NH mortality data) but I suspect they didn't cover the part where the OAG's report find no evidence of his policy causing excess NH mortality, unlike the federal blunder with the testing early on...

This is where I got sick of my MR frenemy....He's been whining about media pushing narratives, but didn't take the time to go over the OAG's report, which has been misrepresented left and right.
 

SuperMatt

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Right now it’s ”We must put John Kerry in jail because he is exactly the same as Michael Flynn.” And there are STILL Rush Limbaugh tributes happening.

Also, Biden hates women because he pulled the DoJ out of a transgender case involving women’s sports… that Barr and Trump had inserted themselves into for no reason other than to score political points with the anti-transgender crowd.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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At the time of this post 9 new Cuomo articles at the top, One even dedicated to how other news sources aren't making this the top story of the 21st century like Fox is attempting to do.
 
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Right now it’s ”We must put John Kerry in jail because he is exactly the same as Michael Flynn.” And there are STILL Rush Limbaugh tributes happening.

Also, Biden hates women because he pulled the DoJ out of a transgender case involving women’s sports… that Barr and Trump had inserted themselves into for no reason other than to score political points with the anti-transgender crowd.
I didn't follow the case, but transgender competitive sports is very problematic. If you go through puberty as a male and transition afterwards, you'll be objectively stronger than your peers who went through puberty as females. It's just not fair for these peers to compete in the same group. Full contact martial arts is even worse, where male facial bone structure is an additional advantage (thicker bones).
 
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At the time of this post 9 new Cuomo articles at the top, One even dedicated to how other news sources aren't making this the top story of the 21st century like Fox is attempting to do.

LOL. Have they already covered how the OAG didn't find corroborative evidence for the accusations excess avoidable NH mortality due to Cuomo's orders? That's gonna be my new measure of neutral reporting on this topic.
 

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Chew Toy McCoy

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LOL. Have they already covered how the OAG didn't find corroborative evidence for the accusations excess avoidable NH mortality due to Cuomo's orders? That's gonna be my new measure of neutral reporting on this topic.

I don't know but I'm fairly confident I can say no.

Here are some fun studies over the years.



 

SuperMatt

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I didn't follow the case, but transgender competitive sports is very problematic. If you go through puberty as a male and transition afterwards, you'll be objectively stronger than your peers who went through puberty as females. It's just not fair for these peers to compete in the same group. Full contact martial arts is even worse, where male facial bone structure is an additional advantage (thicker bones).
The interesting thing is that many women’s sports leagues (women’s pro hockey, women’s ultimate) are inclusive of transgender players. It’s the Fox-news types that are making it problematic, especially when you consider how few people this really affects.
 
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The interesting thing is that many women’s sports leagues (women’s pro hockey, women’s ultimate) are inclusive of transgender players.
This makes me happy. It should be fine in non-competitive sport as long as there isn't excessive risk of injury involved. Transgender life isn't trivial, but it should be all good as long as everybody's approaching it with goodwill.
 

SuperMatt

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This makes me happy. It should be fine in non-competitive sport as long as there isn't excessive risk of injury involved. Transgender life isn't trivial, but it should be all good as long as everybody's approaching it with goodwill.

 
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Eligibility Guidelines

Considering the most up-to-date medical and expert information available at the time of the implementation of this policy, participation is open to:

1. People designated female at birth, regardless of their gender identity.

1.1 The athlete may not take testosterone hormone therapy. Athletes transitioning to male who undergo hormone therapy will be ineligible to compete.

2. Those who transition from male to female are eligible to compete under the following conditions:

2.1. The athlete has declared that her gender identity is female. The declaration cannot be changed, for sporting purposes, for a minimum of four years.

2.2. The athlete must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum is within typical limits of women athletes.

2.3. The athlete's total testosterone level in serum must remain in the typical range of women athletes throughout the period of desired eligibility to compete in the female category.

2.4. Compliance with these conditions may be monitored by testing. In the event of non-compliance, the athlete’s eligibility in the league will be suspended for 12 months.

This seems fair and likely sufficient in a sports where pure physical strength is not the main/sole determinant of performance. Wouldn't work in power lifting or athletics for example. I like the
 

thekev

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The interesting thing is that many women’s sports leagues (women’s pro hockey, women’s ultimate) are inclusive of transgender players. It’s the Fox-news types that are making it problematic, especially when you consider how few people this really affects.

They have policies regarding testosterone levels and other things in an effort to be inclusive. You still see complaints by competitors though. The underlying question is whether trans athletes are more likely to injure their opponents.


I vaguely recall other comments by Rousey around that time, something about "never having been hit that hard...". I can't find the exact quote, so I may be off on this one.

Fox has also experienced this obsession, particularly as an athlete. Pseudo-scientific arguments have been used, including by potential opponents, to argue that Fox has an unfair advantage. UFC fighter Ronda Rousey has been repeatedly quoted arguing that Fox has greater bone density and developed a bone structure that gives her an advantage. It’s hard not to see these arguments as a strategic move. “They just want me out of the way, which is tragic,” says Fox.
 
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They have policies regarding testosterone levels and other things in an effort to be inclusive. You still see complaints by competitors though. The underlying question is whether trans athletes are more likely to injure their opponents.


I vaguely recall other comments by Rousey around that time, something about "never having been hit that hard...". I can't find the exact quote, so I may be off on this one.
She should not compete in a women's league. Competitive sports are messed up anyway...for example if you use an anabolic steroid in your boot camp during off season, they will be undetectable later, but the muscle performance benefit will still last then. I suspect many strength based olympians train like this. This is why the next olympics will be interesting where such meticulously timed doping will not work.
 

SuperMatt

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They have policies regarding testosterone levels and other things in an effort to be inclusive. You still see complaints by competitors though. The underlying question is whether trans athletes are more likely to injure their opponents.


I vaguely recall other comments by Rousey around that time, something about "never having been hit that hard...". I can't find the exact quote, so I may be off on this one.
The top argument I see from right-wingers (who oppose abortion and even employer-paid contraception in some cases) is that they are defending “women’s rights” from the evil men pretending to be transgender for the purpose of: going into women’s bathrooms, and unfairly winning at women’s sports. “I support women’s rights!” Um yeah ok whatever, same person who whined that their boss MADE them hire a woman for a job.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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Maybe an all-new all-inclusive sport can be created. There, I solved it.

This is not the most important issue according to Fox. If you scrolled more than an inch down their main page then you are getting into 2nd tier grievances, which there are many, but aren't the headliner.
 

Eraserhead

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The transgender issue is super, super complex and has no easy answers. These sport issues are tough.

That said we should be kind to people and flexible where possible.
 

thekev

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The top argument I see from right-wingers (who oppose abortion and even employer-paid contraception in some cases) is that they are defending “women’s rights” from the evil men pretending to be transgender for the purpose of: going into women’s bathrooms, and unfairly winning at women’s sports. “I support women’s rights!” Um yeah ok whatever, same person who whined that their boss MADE them hire a woman for a job.

Some of your examples have probably happened, as there are many people in the US. I'm not sure how often they happen though. Lazy hiring practices can happen in cases where employers want to market their diversity. Personally, I think staffing processes are garbage in general. Being forced to skew hiring decisions on the basis of sex/gender is just a single example of this (and really, there should be better ways to balance hiring practices).

She should not compete in a women's league. Competitive sports are messed up anyway...for example if you use an anabolic steroid in your boot camp during off season, they will be undetectable later, but the muscle performance benefit will still last then. I suspect many strength based olympians train like this. This is why the next olympics will be interesting where such meticulously timed doping will not work.

They probably do, and it's pretty fucked up, given the increased health risks to these people later in life. I recall the example of Junior Seau. It doesn't involve trans athletes, but the example still comes to mind.


part I'm referring to..
GREENE: Seau's brain was studied after his death. And there was CTE - chronic brain damage caused by repeated blows to the head. It's been found in dozens of deceased NFL players. Seau's family has brought a wrongful death suit against the NFL, claiming the league knew the danger of concussions but hid it from players. Now, during his career, Junior Seau, like so many other players, downplayed or even hid his injuries.


On a side note, like everything else, the issue of transgender athletes reminds me of Futurama.

 
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