Did COVID Originate in a Wuhan Lab?

Eric

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This is getting some traction, not sure what to make of it and if this is the case I'm not sure what else could have been done. However, IMO it should be fully investigated at all costs, this impacted the entire planet and we all have a right to know.

 
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This is getting some traction, not sure what to make of it and if this is the case I'm not sure what else could have been done. However, IMO it should be fully investigated at all costs, this impacted the entire planet and we all have a right to know.


Very simple: there's insufficient evidence. Which doesn't mean it's impossible, it only means we don't know as of yet.
The indirect data are the following:
1. There's a virology lab in the vicinity of the outbreak
2. It is unheard of that asymptomatic carriers drive a pandemic, which could be a major selective advantage for a lab escape.

That's it. Getting lab employees hospitalized with COVID-like symptoms isn't too informative as this took place at the height of the flu season. So we'd have to know their flu immunization status, age and the exact number of lab workers to be able to tell whether this is a clue or not. It's obvious that the CCP wouldn't cooperate in the full investigation, so this is where intelligence agencies will have to do the groundwork. Until then, it should be considered a natural occurrence until proven otherwise.

I'll have two comments on the big picture item:
1. Regardless of the outcome of the above investigations, pandemics have been identified a major national security risk since the late Bush era. The Trump admin's response has been an absolute national security failure and should even reflect worse on them if the accusations of the virus being man-enhanced turn out to be true. It's especially ironic that the only success they've had was with the vaccines, that relied on the previous admin's infrastructure and the succeeding admin's execution.
2. It's baffling to see how little politicians understand what the WHO does.
 
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Eric

Eric

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Very simple: there's insufficient evidence. Which doesn't mean it's impossible, it only means we don't know as of yet.
The indirect data are the following:
1. There's a virology lab in the vicinity of the outbreak
2. It is unheard of that asymptomatic carriers drive a pandemic, which could be a major selective advantage for a lab escape.

That's it. Getting lab employees hospitalized with COVID-like symptoms isn't too informative as this took place at the height of the flu season. So we'd have to know their flu immunization status, age and the exact number of lab workers to be able to tell whether this is a clue or not. It's obvious that the CCP wouldn't cooperate in the full investigation, so this is where intelligence agencies will have to do the groundwork. Until then, it should be considered a natural occurrence until proven otherwise.

I'll have two comments on the big picture item:
1. Regardless of the outcome of the above investigations, pandemics have been identified a major national security risk since the late Bush era. The Trump admin's response has been an absolute national security failure and should even reflect worse on them if the accusations of the virus being man-enhanced turn out to be true. It's especially ironic that the only success they've had was with the vaccines, that relied on the previous admin's infrastructure and the succeeding admin's execution.
2. It's baffling to see how little politicians understand what the WHO does.

How can we really know when they would not give full access? I don't see how they can be trusted when this is the case, if they really had nothing to hide they would want it all out there.
A team from the World Health Organization that spent two weeks in China earlier this year was not allowed full access to labs studying similar viruses and data about early coronavirus cases, and scientists have called for open, transparent access to such information

The findings show they sought treatment at a hospital and the timeline matches up
The report claims that three Wuhan Institute of Virology employees were hospitalized with possible coronavirus symptoms in November 2019, according to the Wall Street Journal. The report added new information on the details of the timing that the employees were hospitalized, a month before China reported its first infections.

The U.S. previously confirmed that employees at the institute had fallen ill with symptoms consistent with COVID-19 "and common seasonal illness" last fall, according to the State Department during the last days of the Trump administration, but the new report adds that the employees sought treatment in the hospital and that the illness predates China's first reported infections.

According to Chinese data as reported to the World Health Organization, the first COVID cases were identified in December 2019.

We have plenty of reasons to suspect them here, at the very least a full and transparent investigation is warranted and that won't happen as long as they're keeping things from the rest of the world.
 
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How can we really know when they would not give full access? I don't see how they can be trusted when this is the case, if they really had nothing to hide they would want it all out there.
Espionage.

The findings show they sought treatment at a hospital and the timeline matches up
But does it? How many, what kind of treatment, what risk factors, what was the chest imaging like. It was upper respiratory infection season so this is truly insufficient based on the link you posted.

We have plenty of reasons to suspect them here, at the very least a full and transparent investigation is warranted and that won't happen as long as they're keeping things from the rest of the world.
Agree. This became clear when the international inspector team gained - what they learned on site - only partial access over there.

My issue is with people treating suspicions as facts. The investigation was warranted from the get go, and continues to be warranted. Is acting on these suspicions time sensitive? Someone needs to convince me of that.
 
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Eric

Eric

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Espionage.


But does it? How many, what kind of treatment, what risk factors, what was the chest imaging like. It was upper respiratory infection season so this is truly insufficient based on the link you posted.


Agree. This became clear when the international inspector team gained - what they learned on site - only partial access over there.

My issue is with people treating suspicions as facts. The investigation was warranted from the get go, and continues to be warranted. Is acting on these suspicions time sensitive? Someone needs to convince me of that.
I think the biggest question is what do you do even if it is true? IMO litigating it won't do much good at this point, it is what is is and we've done what we had to to stop it. However, it feels like we have a right to know since the impacts of it were so profound, at the very least making sure something like that never happens again.
 

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I was thinking about posting this. I know this has been floating around since the pandemic started. At first I kind of wrote it off as a bunch of conspiracy nutters. But there seems to be more evidence supporting this claim and still a lot we don't know. I would agree this absolutely needs to be investigated until a conclusion is reached. Not sure of what kind of repercussions would happen though.
 

Renzatic

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I think the biggest question is what do you do even if it is true? IMO litigating it won't do much good at this point, it is what is is and we've done what we had to to stop it. However, it feels like we have a right to know since the impacts of it were so profound, at the very least making sure something like that never happens again.

Given that, if it were manmade, it's release was a complete accident, and obviously not an act of war, there isn't much any that can be done against the Chinese other than censure them for trying to cover up their own culpability in the matter.

Though I have severe doubts that it was manmade. The virus has been isolated and studied countless times by this point, and every doctor, scientist, and researcher that's had hands-on time with it has stated that it's far more likely to be naturally occurring, lacking any of the usual tale-tell signs that it's a piece of engineered biotechnology. The evidence stating the possibility of the contrary is fairly thin at the moment.
 
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Given that, if it were manmade, it's release was a complete accident, and obviously not an act of war, there isn't much any that can be done against the Chinese other than censure them for trying to cover up their own culpability in the matter.

Though I have severe doubts that it was manmade. The virus has been isolated and studied countless times by this point, and every doctor, scientist, and researcher that's had hands-on time with it has stated that it's far more likely to be naturally occurring, lacking any of the usual tale-tell signs that it's a piece of engineered biotechnology. The evidence stating the possibility of the contrary is fairly thin at the moment.
I used the term human-enhanced for this reason. All points to the virus being a product of evolution and selection. The accusation at the presence is whether the selection process was enhanced by repeated reinfection of cell cultures.
 

Renzatic

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I used the term human-enhanced for this reason. All points to the virus being a product of evolution and selection. The accusation at the presence is whether the selection process was enhanced by repeated reinfection of cell cultures.

It's possible. Their scientists could have been studying the SARS virus, and due to lax safety measures, and complete lack of ethical concerns the Chinese are now renowned for, ended up creating COVID.
 

Renzatic

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Sure, but maybe they were eating bat wings for lunch bought from the Wuhan live market?

I heard it was because someone had sex with a bat. That theory can't be tested though, cuz all attempts to recreate the conditions that may have lead to covid have all failed because the bats keep flying away.
 
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Eric

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Given that, if it were manmade, it's release was a complete accident, and obviously not an act of war, there isn't much any that can be done against the Chinese other than censure them for trying to cover up their own culpability in the matter.

Though I have severe doubts that it was manmade. The virus has been isolated and studied countless times by this point, and every doctor, scientist, and researcher that's had hands-on time with it has stated that it's far more likely to be naturally occurring, lacking any of the usual tale-tell signs that it's a piece of engineered biotechnology. The evidence stating the possibility of the contrary is fairly thin at the moment.
Whether it came from a wet market or a lab they have some responsibility to keep themselves in check. I don't think we look at this as a happy accident, the entire world has a stake in it and as such should be putting on the pressure, even if it's UN guidelines or whatever but it should be strictly enforced.
 
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I heard it was because someone had sex with a bat. That theory can't be tested though, cuz all attempts to recreate the conditions that may have lead to covid have all failed because the bats keep flying away.
What, someone said "isn't George Clooney so dreamy..... he was batman once you know"... one thing led to another, and.... bat fucking.


I live in S.E.A. I have zero issue believing the 'official' story that it was people eating bats, from a wet market. Even if they didn't say that, if they said "it came from bats" my first guess would probably have been "who tried to eat one?".
 

Renzatic

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I live in S.E.A. I have zero issue believing the 'official' story that it was people eating bats, from a wet market. Even if they didn't say that, if they said "it came from bats" my first guess would probably have been "who tried to eat one?".

This reminds me of a conversation I had with some crazy fuckwit on Facebook the other day. He was talking about how people in Asia were so poor, they were forced to eats cats and dogs.

I explained to him that A. they don't eat cats and dogs because they're poor. They do it because they like the taste. And B. if you're about to get all high and mighty about them eating weird stuff, keep in mind we're not much better. A friend of mine told me his uncle BBQed an armadillo last week because he wanted to see what it tasted like.

...apparently, it was pretty good.
 
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I heard it was because someone had sex with a bat. That theory can't be tested though, cuz all attempts to recreate the conditions that may have lead to covid have all failed because the bats keep flying away.
Ask this guy:
1621965039019.png
 
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