Do men really have it easier? From a transgender point of view.

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Scepticalscribe

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I found this read to be very interesting, since we barely hear about Trans men point of view.


In recent years, I have read a few articles on this subject, and - condensing the conclusions - the findings seemed to be that professionally, life became considerably easier when one presented as male - you weren't spoken over or condescended to in meetings, your ideas were taken seriously and assumed to be yours, your "no" to silly requests was accepted immediately without pushback, physically, the space you occupied was not challenged or threatened, you were assumed to have a right to be there without explanation, justification, or propitiation.

However, personally, matters remained complicated.
 

P_X

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I was intrigued by the subject. Then stopped by the paywall. And then put off by the video title. So ultimately it's a no for me in terms of going forward.
It's a good one though:

What continues to strike me is the significant reduction in friendliness and kindness now extended to me in public spaces. It now feels as though I am on my own: No one, outside of family and close friends, is paying any attention to my well-being...

Apparently, people were only holding the door for me because I was a woman rather than out of common courtesy as I had assumed. Not just men, women too. I learned this the first time I left the house presenting as male, when a woman entered a department store in front of me and just let the door swing shut behind her. I was so caught off guard I walked into it face first.


I can't read it in Safari but Chrome works all the time.
 

Scepticalscribe

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It's a good one though:

"What continues to strike me is the significant reduction in friendliness and kindness now extended to me in public spaces. It now feels as though I am on my own: No one, outside of family and close friends, is paying any attention to my well-being..."

That is not terribly surprising, as strange men are perceived - even unconsciously - as a possible, or potential, "threat" (to women) in the public space.

After all, they dominate, define and control access to - the public space, and if women do extend kindness or friendliness, and are subsequently attacked, or assaulted, the blame will immediately and automatically be placed on the woman (what was she thinking? didn't she know better? why didn't she take precautions?) unless social class and/or race/ethnicity are factored into this equation.

It's a good one though:

"Apparently, people were only holding the door for me because I was a woman rather than out of common courtesy as I had assumed. Not just men, women too. I learned this the first time I left the house presenting as male, when a woman entered a department store in front of me and just let the door swing shut behind her. I was so caught off guard I walked into it face first."

Actually, while I usually hold the door for whoever comes behind me, the question I would ask here is whether he would expect men to hold the door open for him (as a fellow-male) and why does he expect women to do so?
 

P_X

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I found this read to be very interesting, since we barely hear about Trans men point of view.

Thanks! I enjoyed this a lot. But one thing people don't take into consideration in these experiences: Perceived attractiveness by others. That's one of the differences that are not really understood by ""attractive"" people (double quotation marks because Americans love to imply that attractiveness is an objective rather than cultural thing; utter BS in my opinion). Someone may be perceived significantly more or less attractive after transitioning, something that will define their experience. Testosterone definitely boosts confidence, and per some psych experiments, it also increases willingness to make decisions and take risks. It doesn't boost one thing: people being right about their decisions, lol. One of the societal issues is the confusion of confidence with correctness. I told my 5' boss, who is one of the 5 smartest people I know and happens to be a female that being a short female has a lot of advantages, except for when it comes to leadership perception. We had a good laugh, and she told me how thin is the threshold for her to be called bitchy by others. Then we laughed again because she gets shit done like nobody else.

That is not terribly surprising, as strange men are perceived - even unconsciously - as a possible, or potential, "threat" (to women) in the public space.

After all, they dominate, define and control access to - the public space, and if women do extend kindness or friendliness, and are subsequently attacked, or assaulted, the blame will immediately and automatically be placed on the woman (what was she thinking? didn't she know better? why didn't she take precautions?) unless social class and/or race/ethnicity are factored into this equation..
Of course, but I also hope to eliminate the perception that men's emotional well-being doesn't matter. In America, I actually find it tiresome interacting with young females who perceive themselves as attractive, because they'll think basic kindness or directness means I'm into them, and I really want to avoid any such perception.

Actually, while I usually hold the door for whoever comes behind me, the question I would ask here is whether he would expect men to hold the door open for him (as a fellow-male) and why does he expect women to do so?
I have a bodycheck policy, I'm heavier than most other people so I let everyone in front of me than squeezing someone half my weight to the side of the door. I hold the door for guys too, because men need the kindness too, and you know, men will be pleasantly surprised and not think I held the door for them because I'm into them.
 
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Scepticalscribe

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Thanks! I enjoyed this a lot. But one thing people don't take into consideration in these experiences: Perceived attractiveness by others. That's one of the differences that are not really understood by ""attractive"" people (double quotation marks because Americans love to imply that attractiveness is an objective rather than cultural thing; utter BS in my opinion). Someone may be perceived significantly more or less attractive after transitioning, something that will define their experience. Testosterone definitely boosts confidence, and per some psych experiments, it also increases willingness to make decisions and take risks. It doesn't boost one thing: people being right about their decisions, lol. One of the societal issues is the confusion of confidence with being correct (just see our president). I told my 5' boss, who is one of the 5 smartest people I know and happens to be a female that being a short female has a lot of advantages, except for when it comes to leadership perception. We had a good laugh, and she told me how thin is the threshold for her to be called bitchy by others, and we laughed again, because we know she gets shit done like nobody else.




Of course, but I also hope to eliminate the perception that men's emotional well-being doesn't matter. In America, I actually find it tiresome interacting with young females who perceive themselves as attractive, because they'll think basic kindness or directness means I'm into them, and I really want to avoid any such perception.


I have a bodycheck policy, I'm heavier than most other people so I let everyone in front of me than squeezing someone half my weight to the side of the door. I hold the door for guys too, because men need the kindness too, and you know, men will not think I held the door for them because I'm into them.

Oh, gosh, yes, agreed.

Of course, men's emotional well-being matters, it is just that it should not be up to women to address that need in the public space.

The "attractiveness" argument - or, the assumption of attractiveness argument - (well, the US is "different") has left me gobsmacked.

Certainly, as a woman, neither my mother nor I would ever have considered that anyone was ever "into" either of us, or deemed us attractive, if they were kind enough to hold open a door to permit us passage. A polite smile and gracious thanks by way of response - an acknowledgement of the courtesy extended - usually sufficed.

In my teens, as a passionate feminist, I went through a phase of angrily snarling "I'm liberated" to anyone who thought to open a door for me; now, while I am still a passionate feminist, I merely treat it as a thoughtful courtesy, an expression of manners, kindness and consideration for others (even if ever so slightly gendered) and accept it, and acknowledge it, with polite gratitude.

However, in my student days, I did notice that men were - somewhat quicker, shall we say - to spontaneously leap into action re door-holding, and tendering other small but similar courtesies, if the lady approaching this particular door was deemed attractive in that specific cultural context.
 
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P_X

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The "attractiveness" argument - or, the assumption of attractiveness argument - (well, the US is "different") has left me gobsmacked.
Oh, it's a thing. Lot's of obsession with perfect teeth here. It's a status symbol and a prime determinant of perceived attractiveness (IMHO). Had lot's of conversations about this back in my postdoc days with a Psych PhD student who was also the quintessential frat boy type. Issue with psychology experiments, is that they tend to use American college students to generalize to the world. I think a lot of the findings are real, like the Dunning-Kruger phenomenon, but culture dependent, and should be treated as such unless proven otherwise.

Certainly, as a woman, neither my mother nor I would ever have considered that anyone was ever "into" either of us, or deemed us attractive, if they were kind enough to hold open a door to permit us passage. A polite smile and gracious thanks by way of response - an acknowledgement of the courtesy extended - usually sufficed.
Agree. It's an issue for deprived men, and a propeller for the Incel movement. The thing is that some young people think if they don't find you attractive, you must be deprived. In reality, if the general level of kindness from women is higher, then men won't get that impression, and if women do you basic kindness to send signal (which they do), then it's very confusing signaling to men. I learned it early on to set my threshold very very high to consider some additional motive behind kindness, and it led me to have beautiful (platonic) friendships with women, which I enjoy to date. Female friendships are much higher maintenance though and that's what I see with my wife's friendships too. Male friendships are like, we catch up 5 years of not meeting in 5 minutes like no time has elapsed.


In my teens, as a passionate feminist, I went through a phase of angrily snarling "I'm liberated" to anyone who thought to open a door for me; now, while I am still a passionate feminist, I merely treat it as a thoughtful courtesy, an expression of manners, kindness and consideration for others (even if ever so slightly gendered) and accept it, and acknowledge it, with polite gratitude.

However, in my student days, I did notice that men were - somewhat quicker, shall we say - to spontaneously leap into action re door-holding, and tendering other small but similar courtesies, if the lady approaching this particular door was deemed attractive in that specific cultural context.
Such courtesies do favor attractive women, and this is one of the notions I was eluding to. Those who enjoy these small gestures tend to take them as a given, so when these stop they are surprised. My policy is to treat everyone equally the best I can.

Well, maybe __most__ men, but me? I think we both know ...
I always found it hilarious to be hit on by men, it's like YEAH PEARSONX you've still got it!

It is somewhat disingenuous to suggest that someone who has transitioned to male will naturally be treated as male. It is not about man vs. woman, it is about being transgendered.
It really depends how well they can pull it off by the perception of others. The burly transgender guy harassed by the cops is probably indeed treated like a man, sadly in the worst sense.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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Hahaha, one of our gay friends was like, "If you haven't been hit on by a gay man ..."
I'm a straight man but admit to finishing the night at a gay bar occasionally to offset the ego-bruising with the ladies earlier in the night. Attention is attention.

Generally speaking, I do think it's fair to say women often feel they are the target of attention when out and about while men feel they are invisible. Both have their positive and negative aspects, but I think it's one of the reasons the opposite sexes can't relate, thinking "must be nice" about the other's reality.
 

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Generally speaking, I do think it's fair to say women often feel they are the target of attention when out and about while men feel they are invisible. Both have their positive and negative aspects, but I think it's one of the reasons the opposite sexes can't relate, thinking "must be nice" about the other's reality.
exactly
 
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