Does the GOP even have an alternative to Trumpism?

[SuperMatt]

The republicans got 74 million votes with the worst candidate in history.

We are now the only good guys but we need to be smart about framing.

There are a -load of racists in this country. Do you think they all just magically stopped being racist when segregation was ended? Anybody who voted for Trump is either a racist, or is ok with the fact that he is a racist. It’s one or the other. Let’s face it; a lot of people fit that description. They didn’t vote to oppose defund the police or medicare for all. In fact, many of Trump’s voters support some kind of universal healthcare! They went out because of the hate and culture wars that were smoldering before but ignited by the gasoline of Trump’s divisive rhetoric. If George Wallace had the social media machine behind him during his time, he would have won at least one term too.

 

[Eraserhead]

There are a -load of racists in this country. Do you think they all just magically stopped being racist when segregation was ended? Anybody who voted for Trump is either a racist, or is ok with the fact that he is a racist. It’s one or the other. Let’s face it; a lot of people fit that description. They didn’t vote to oppose defund the police or medicare for all. In fact, many of Trump’s voters support some kind of universal healthcare! They went out because of the hate and culture wars that were smoldering before but ignited by the gasoline of Trump’s divisive rhetoric. If George Wallace had the social media machine behind him during his time, he would have won at least one term too.

Let’s agree to disagree.

 

[Zoidberg]

I think a bigger problem in 2016 was that it appeared the whole left was more concerned about gender neutral bathrooms than any issues of substance.

And while trans issues are important it’s difficult to justify putting the whole focus on an issue that affects 1/500 people. Now maybe they make up a much larger percentage in the justice system or suicides but then the issue needs suitable framing.

It’s like the defund the police stuff this time - yes America is over policed but we still want the cops to come when there’s a home invasion or whatever. Rural America could move towards a model like mountain rescue where it’s mostly volunteer led - perhaps with a man and woman leading a two officer team that works one day a week with volunteers as backup. But you’ve got to sell that sensibly - and defund the police doesn’t do that. I mean here in the UK a rural town with 10k people probably has less than 10 crimes a month. If rural America is worse that’s probably because they are arresting people for minor offences that don’t matter.

Exactly.

Here's a good Planet Money episode about what happens when the Police loses its funding.

Who Pays For The Police? : The Indicator from Planet Money

Police fines and fees have helped to fill city coffers, but they've done serious damage to community relations.

www.npr.org

In short: fees and fines increase on the most vulnerable.

Also linked to that defund the police idiocy, here's the interest in "Antifa" on Google Trends:

It was basically non-existent before Trump's term. Then, as they needed a new boogeyman to keep their followers scared, out of nowhere pops this nebulous Antifa people.

I know this is a very unpopular opinion, but I think the protesters this year (including the BLM movement) were just useful idiots. Most of them well meaning, certainly, but idiots nonetheless: they didn't achieve much, and they only made Trump stronger (luckily not strong enough for Biden to lose).

In 2016 the IRA and their ancillary troll farms organised both BLM protests and anti-BLM protests, and it worked. Then BLM went almost dormant for three years until this election year when they energised them again, and again, it worked.

 

[User.45]

Exactly.

Here's a good Planet Money episode about what happens when the Police loses its funding.

Who Pays For The Police? : The Indicator from Planet Money

Police fines and fees have helped to fill city coffers, but they've done serious damage to community relations.

www.npr.org

In short: fees and fines increase on the most vulnerable.

Also linked to that defund the police idiocy, here's the interest in "Antifa" on Google Trends:

View attachment 1690

It was basically non-existent before Trump's term. Then, as they needed a new boogeyman to keep their followers scared, out of nowhere pops this nebulous Antifa people.

I know this is a very unpopular opinion, but I think the protestors this year (including the BLM movement) were just useful idiots. Most of them well meaning, certainly, but idiots nonetheless: they didn't achieve much, and they only made Trump stronger (luckily not strong enough for Biden to lose).

In 2016 the IRA and their ancillary troll farms organised both BLM protests and anti-BLM protests, and it worked. Then BLM went almost dormant for three years until this election year when they energised them again, and again, it worked.

The irony is that I had a friend who traveled as an antifascist to clash with neonazis in Germany in the early 2000s, so to me, antifa' have long been the guys who, you'll be surprised, fight fascism. It's amazing how this sentiment got flipped into something negative I mean, they've always been trouble makers, but dude, they wouldn't even exist without nazis.

 

[Zoidberg]

The irony is that I had a friend who traveled as an antifascist to clash with neonazis in Germany in the early 2000s, so to me, antifa' have long been the guys who, you'll be surprised, fight fascism. It's amazing how this sentiment got flipped into something negative I mean, they've always been trouble makers, but dude, they wouldn't even exist without nazis.

It's been a thing in Europe (where I live) for a while, so I was familiar with it as well (hence why I limited the search on Google Trends to the US). But I am also pragmatic. I always look at the bottom line (whether it's in a political party, in a leader, or in a protest) and by that metric BLM has been –at least in the short term– counterproductive.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Keep in mind we all base your decisions on the information we receive. With Facebook and the multitude of alt-right outlets that have popped up in the last 8 years that have made it so easy to push out perfectly targeted agitprop and have diluted the meaning of journalism, from their standpoint, Trumpists are also taking a very logical decision in their support for fascism, and the same goes for libertarians. From the moment they get up to the moment they go to sleep, they are exposed to as much disinformation as they can take.

They are using the freedom of press we enjoy in Western countries against ourselves, and they are winning. As long as people like Murdoch and his talking heads are not held accountable for what they have been doing for decades, they will keep gaining ground. And don't get me started on RT and their satellite outlets, I'm tired of explaining that to my friends.

The news media used to control the lies and kept them comparatively sane. Now social media pulls the lies out of their ass and the news media regurgitates them, going as far as advertising a single nobody's tweet as the most informed person on the topic.

 

[SuperMatt]

I do not believe that silencing progressive voices will cause Trump backers to switch sides.

The idea that protests against police brutality should be avoided or else the GOP wins? We saw how kowtowing to the right helped Obama, right? They didn’t care at all and dumped on him no matter what. Bending over backwards to avoid “scaring” voters away from the Democratic party into the safe, warm arms of Donald Trump and his ilk is a losing strategy. Let the progressives have their say, but for the top job of President, nominate a moderate such as Biden. This should allow things to slowly move leftward instead of the far-right system we have now.

 

[Zoidberg]

I do not believe that silencing progressive voices will cause Trump backers to switch sides.

The idea that protests against police brutality should be avoided or else the GOP wins? We saw how kowtowing to the right helped Obama, right? They didn’t care at all and dumped on him no matter what. Bending over backwards to avoid “scaring” voters away from the Democratic party into the safe, warm arms of Donald Trump and his ilk is a losing strategy. Let the progressives have their say, but for the top job of President, nominate a moderate such as Biden. This should allow things to slowly move leftward instead of the far-right system we have now.

It's not about silencing progressive voices. It's about being strategic, about not falling into their trap. When your opponent controls the media, protests must be totally peaceful or they will make things worse.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

It's not about silencing progressive voices. It's about being strategic, about not falling into their trap. When your opponent controls the media, protests must be totally peaceful or they will make things worse.

Honestly both sides won't condemn their more violent base because they want to hold that "conditions drove them to this" card, even though there will never be a could time to play that card, which is ironic considering how much violence we drop outside our borders without a second thought.

 

[User.45]

It's not about silencing progressive voices. It's about being strategic, about not falling into their trap. When your opponent controls the media, protests must be totally peaceful or they will make things worse.

I disagree. It doesn't matter, because nothing matters to the GOP base as long as they live in an information vacuum. Again, we had the West's most abysmal COVID response in the USA and all it did was flipping 120K strategic votes for an electoral college victory. Senate victory was anticipated based on winning seats in deeply red states. Didn't happen. 2022 will be different because the GOP will have 2x seats up.

So yeah, of course I disagree with violent protests, and I maintain that mass gatherings for any purpose are generally a bad idea this year, but I also think that mutuality puts "com" in compromise, so why bother to change your values for the other side, when all they'll do is start caring about the deficit, COVID, and corruption in a flick of a switch.

 

[Eraserhead]

I disagree. It doesn't matter, because nothing matters to the GOP base as long as they live in an information vacuum. Again, we had the West's most abysmal COVID response in the USA and all it did was flipping 120K strategic votes for an electoral college victory. Senate victory was anticipated based on winning seats in deeply red states. Didn't happen. 2022 will be different because the GOP will have 2x seats up.

So yeah, of course I disagree with violent protests, and I maintain that mass gatherings for any purpose are generally a bad idea this year, but I also think that mutuality puts "com" in compromise, so why bother to change your values for the other side, when all they'll do is start caring about the deficit, COVID, and corruption in a flick of a switch.

The Democratic Party also had strategy issues where really they are still campaigning like it’s 2005 and not doing digital properly - https://www.ocasiocortez.com/ is way more sophisticated than Joe Bidens website, plus almost all people in the Democratic Party didn’t do much if any digital spending. Plus unlike the GOP they didn’t campaign in person which is also important.

The other 2020 disadvantage is that as people have been hanging out a lot less in person it’s hard for people’s more politically aware friends to correct misinformation.

 

[lizkat]

Let’s agree to disagree.

Wow. You are here, that is so fine. I have not been paying enough attention. Or it's the brain fog of pre-solstice.

Anyway, welcome.

(and now back to wherever this thread was when I saw yer moniker go by)

 

[lizkat]

There’s also the belief that even if Trump doesn’t run whoever does will need to have Trump’s blessing in order to get Trump’s voters. Even Trump’s niece who wrote the family tell all book fears this scenario as the next candidate with Trumps blessings would have Trump’s leanings but be a lot more skilled and mature about getting their way than Trump’s rule by tantrum.

Yeah, my fear. A competent fascist would have run the table better for his 2020 chances than Trump was ever capable of doing. He did hang onto his hardcore base though. But there are likely future leaders of Trump followers out there with the skill and connections to take this country willingly into a repudiation of democracy as we still know it at this moment.

Maybe that can't happen in 2024 assuming a reasonable recovery from the ravages of covid-19 (which is a big project) during the next couple years. More like in some later time of discontent as in the landscapes of 2016, where there were angry populists on both ends of the political spectrum in the USA.

A charismatic, ambitious and younger guy who has learned his way around American congressional and agency politics, stepping up to claim Trump's blessing and his crowd of authoritarian followers... there's a ready-made force to appeal to lots of young and unhappy populists who were not active in 2016-20 Trump adulation.

I hope the Dems are able to pass some legislation that tightens up executive branch options for a rogue president, someone who turns to self-dealing and runs the administration as if he had absolute power, the way Trump often tried to play it. It's tricky and against usual norms, but this is the time to review all that because of what we just lived through.

 

[thekev]

I hope the Dems are able to pass some legislation that tightens up executive branch options for a rogue president, someone who turns to self-dealing and runs the administration as if he had absolute power, the way Trump often tried to play it. It's tricky and against usual norms, but this is the time to review all that because of what we just lived through.

It should be easier for them to pass this when a Democrat is in power, even if they can understand the intention. It's not like Biden is going to go all Futurama Nixon's head on them.

 

[Eraserhead]

Yeah, my fear. A competent fascist would have run the table better for his 2020 chances than Trump was ever capable of doing. He did hang onto his hardcore base though. But there are likely future leaders of Trump followers out there with the skill and connections to take this country willingly into a repudiation of democracy as we still know it at this moment.

Maybe that can't happen in 2024 assuming a reasonable recovery from the ravages of covid-19 (which is a big project) during the next couple years. More like in some later time of discontent as in the landscapes of 2016, where there were angry populists on both ends of the political spectrum in the USA.

A charismatic, ambitious and younger guy who has learned his way around American congressional and agency politics, stepping up to claim Trump's blessing and his crowd of authoritarian followers... there's a ready-made force to appeal to lots of young and unhappy populists who were not active in 2016-20 Trump adulation.

I hope the Dems are able to pass some legislation that tightens up executive branch options for a rogue president, someone who turns to self-dealing and runs the administration as if he had absolute power, the way Trump often tried to play it. It's tricky and against usual norms, but this is the time to review all that because of what we just lived through.

Yeah but the GOP is going to have a hard time keeping their Latino voters given they’ve just attempted to undermine democracy and the Democratic Party seems to have FINALLY understood how to campaign in the 2010s.

Plus I think if Biden thinks the senate will open up in 6-8 months - is that when McConnell will be joining Trump in jail?

 

[lizkat]

It should be easier for them to pass this when a Democrat is in power, even if they can understand the intention. It's not like Biden is going to go all Futurama Nixon's head on them.

Yeah the question become whether the Dems figure hey first do our king of the castle thing and then haul the ladders up and burn them.

Plus I think if Biden thinks the senate will open up in 6-8 months - is that when McConnell will be joining Trump in jail?

McConnell has ninety-nine lives, probably. He is certainly an even better weasel with words than a guy like Lindsey Graham. His response to news of the expected electoral vote totals yesterday was a masterpiece of welcoming the opposition into the fortress but signaling it was still maybe just a tour of the lobby, and prefacing all that with a heartfelt round of praise for the emperor who if you squint still has some clothes on even if most of his stuff is in a moving van already.

There was no crude "well we'll see about that" from McConnell, the way Cruz and Mo Brooks were still carrying on casting shade on Biden's victory.

And McConnell was not openly threading a needle the way Trump lackey Graham was with his bootlicking "It’s a very, very narrow path for the president, but having said that, I think we’ll let those legal challenges play out.”

Nope, McConnell simply said “Many of us had hoped the presidential election would yield a different result, but our system of government has the processes to determine who will be sworn in on Jan. 20. The Electoral College has spoken.”

He left it to the likes of Mo Brooks to play up the remote possibility that Congress may yet somehow decline to count those EVs on Jan 6 and certify a 306-232 victory for Biden.

But McConnell didn't put a public rejection of that idea out there either, and just the fact that he said our system "has the processes to determine who will be sworn in on Jan 20" and tacked on "The Electoral College has spoken" --as if that's one of several processes?-- does still let Trump fanatics look to January 6th as the day of reckoning when all will be made clear yada yada."​

But at least McConnell did congratulate the President-Elect and VP-Elect and noted that Harris becomes our first female VP. Nothing was said about her race. Zero. Too soon for the GOP to get that into the frame of the new family photo?

And everything he did say about the winning team followed a fervid recounting of how great has been Donald Trump and his "endless accomplishments" over the past four years. It was a pivot, though, of sorts, with something of the structure of an opera.

Man these GOP guys are some hardcore sore losers.

McConnell warns GOP off Electoral College brawl in Congress

WASHINGTON (AP) — Fending off a messy fight that could damage Republicans ahead of Georgia Senate runoffs, Majority Leader Mitch McConnell warned fellow GOP senators on Tuesday not to join President Donald Trump’s extended assault on the Electoral College results.

apnews.com

 

[thekev]

Yeah the question become whether the Dems figure hey first do our king of the castle thing and then haul the ladders up and burn them.

No idea, but it may depend on how well they anticipate doing in midterm elections.

McConnell has ninety-nine lives, probably. He is certainly an even better weasel with words than a guy like Lindsey Graham.

I take it you still haven't watched Star Trek?

But at least McConnell did congratulate the President-Elect and VP-Elect and noted that Harris becomes our first female VP. Nothing was said about her race. Zero. Too soon for the GOP to get that into the frame of the new family photo?

If he commented on that, even in a positive light, he would have gotten shit for it. I imagine it would have been perceived as pandering.

McConnell has ninety-nine lives, probably. He is certainly an even better weasel with words than a guy like Lindsey Graham. His response to news of the expected electoral vote totals yesterday was a masterpiece of welcoming the opposition into the fortress but signaling it was still maybe just a tour of the lobby, and prefacing all that with a heartfelt round of praise for the emperor who if you squint still has some clothes on even if most of his stuff is in a moving van already.

There was no crude "well we'll see about that" from McConnell, the way Cruz and Mo Brooks were still carrying on casting shade on Biden's victory.

As much as I hate all of them and noted that Cruz really grew into the name "Lyin' Ted," McConnell tends to be more on the bureaucratic side. He was the one who shot down Trump's idea that we should delay the election, a few months back. I expect he still won't confirm liberal cabinet members.

 

[Eraserhead]

No idea, but it may depend on how well they anticipate doing in midterm elections.




I take it you still haven't watched Star Trek?

If he commented on that, even in a positive light, he would have gotten shit for it. I imagine it would have been perceived as pandering.



As much as I hate all of them and noted that Cruz really grew into the name "Lyin' Ted," McConnell tends to be more on the bureaucratic side. He was the one who shot down Trump's idea that we should delay the election, a few months back. I expect he still won't confirm liberal cabinet members.

There’s a hell of a lot of perfectly pleasant perfectly nice little old ladies and men who vote for conservative candidates. I don’t believe any of them are down with the democracy denial coming out of the Republican party these days.

Plus it makes it harder to split the Democratic Party activists in two because sticking together is the only way to save democracy and it makes them more likely to campaign and donate.

If these guys didn’t have serious, serious dirt against them Trump would have gone under the bus in mid November.

To be honest I’m still surprised they didn’t impeach Trump. Sure they’d have got fewer voters but so would Biden.

EDIT: And I’m sure a fair few of the little old ladies and men are a little racist. But I doubt they are generally white suprematists.

 

[lizkat]

I take it you still haven't watched Star Trek?

Guilty! But the winter is young!

McConnell has pretty much sewed up the federal judiciary so he can afford to be seen in the next administration working across the aisle with Biden on a few things even if the Senate remains blue... especially if somehow they bring goodness to Kentucky and the Dems don't reopen investigation of his wife (Elaine Chao) as head of the DoT, regarding state of Kentucky as beneficiary of assorted transportation projects that got the green light after she was confirmed in her post.

Trump had summarily fired the DoT's acting IG over that gig back in May, nominating a pre-vetted e.g. Trump-loyal permanent replacement for the Senate to consider, also sidelining a qualified deputy from promotion and installing a political appointee in the meantime to take over the acting IG slot at Transportation. (That appointee was from within DoT and so ended up having oversight over his own corner of the agency, atop the Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration. He continued to wear both hats.)

Anyway if Biden manages to get McConnell to work across the aisle with Dems to "get things done for America," I sure do hope he keeps washing his hands when he heads back to the White House at night.

 

[Huntn]

Trumpism is a dead end, a death‘s head end.

Just listened to Biden address the crowd in Georgia, the difference in address tone (as compared to ) is stark, the difference between a empathetic, respectable, caring leader, and a raving, teeth nashing, user-loser conman and psychopath, a spewer of poison and lies with every breath.

And there are millions who apparently continue to choose the latter, simultaneously uplifting that the dark has been pushed back and dismal that corrupt darkness is the choice of many Americans. It’s like people among us have a group death wish, because regardless of what $$ advantage you see in corruption, how can that trump losing your metaphorical soul which represents whatever goodness you process?

One of the talking heads said “we are waiting for the (Trump) fever to break”, yes... we are.