Electric Scooters

Nycturne

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Key bit in what I said before being speed limited. I don’t need or want a 28+mph top speed. (To be fair, not sure I want to go much faster than 16-18mph on the Ninebot Max)

So I’ve been looking more closely at the other options available to see what is available that meets my wants, and I’m kinda digging what Varla has on offer.

Leaning towards selling the Ninebot for a Pegasus. For a bit more it adds suspension and dual motors. It can do 28mph, but can be limited to 10 or 16mph using the “PAS” setting (it repurposes some e-bike components for the display and motor controls) according to the manual. A reviewer was able to do 14mph up a 22% grade hill with a 180lb rider, so it has plenty of oomph there. Main downside is that it tends to get 15-23mi range in the real world, with the sort of riding I’d be doing being 20-23mi. So not as good range, but still enough for the trips I’m interested in.
 

Eric

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So I’ve been looking more closely at the other options available to see what is available that meets my wants, and I’m kinda digging what Varla has on offer.

Leaning towards selling the Ninebot for a Pegasus. For a bit more it adds suspension and dual motors. It can do 28mph, but can be limited to 10 or 16mph using the “PAS” setting (it repurposes some e-bike components for the display and motor controls) according to the manual. A reviewer was able to do 14mph up a 22% grade hill with a 180lb rider, so it has plenty of oomph there. Main downside is that it tends to get 15-23mi range in the real world, with the sort of riding I’d be doing being 20-23mi. So not as good range, but still enough for the trips I’m interested in.
Please keep us updated on your decision here, I hope I didn't mislead you with the Ninebot but understand it may not good fit, particularly with the lack of suspension which I've also found to be really rigid and inability to climb hills.
 

fooferdoggie

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So I’ve been looking more closely at the other options available to see what is available that meets my wants, and I’m kinda digging what Varla has on offer.

Leaning towards selling the Ninebot for a Pegasus. For a bit more it adds suspension and dual motors. It can do 28mph, but can be limited to 10 or 16mph using the “PAS” setting (it repurposes some e-bike components for the display and motor controls) according to the manual. A reviewer was able to do 14mph up a 22% grade hill with a 180lb rider, so it has plenty of oomph there. Main downside is that it tends to get 15-23mi range in the real world, with the sort of riding I’d be doing being 20-23mi. So not as good range, but still enough for the trips I’m interested in.
ya thats a lot of torque. my ebiek doing a 22% grade I have to put out at least 420 watts to get about 7mph.
 

Nycturne

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Please keep us updated on your decision here, I hope I didn't mislead you with the Ninebot but understand it may not good fit, particularly with the lack of suspension which I've also found to be really rigid and inability to climb hills.

Eh, it happens. I more am annoyed at the decline of brick and mortar to be honest, since that would have saved me money being able to try in person. But I don’t think I would have known what to look for right now without the 100+ mi on the Ninebot Max or some other scooter. At least with the Ninebot, I don’t feel too bad selling it on, as it’s still good for what it sets out to do, and I’m pretty sure I can find a good home for it.

The Pegasus is tempting precisely because it is more aimed at people like me, and has the extra bits that are useful in my situation: damped steering for stability at speed, suspension for the inevitable cracks in the pavement, solid tires so you don’t get stuck during a commute (although maybe not as fun offroad), and more control over the acceleration curve and top speed so I can strike that balance for the shared use paths I would spend most of my time on. The whole thing is tuned for stability and ride at 10-25mph, which seems like exactly what you want on this sort of paved-road commuting vehicle.

ya thats a lot of torque. my ebiek doing a 22% grade I have to put out at least 420 watts to get about 7mph.

It is using dual 500W motors to do that, so sounds about right. It’s one reason I want some way to cap the speed as a safety feature. So many advertise the top speed and power, but not enough on the safety features outside the brakes used. There’s a couple other scooters in this price range that would also do pretty well for my wants, but they don’t say what the speed settings actually do in any detail, unlike Varla’s manuals which are quite good.
 

fooferdoggie

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E

It is using dual 500W motors to do that, so sounds about right. It’s one reason I want some way to cap the speed as a safety feature. So many advertise the top speed and power, but not enough on the safety features outside the brakes used. There’s a couple other scooters in this price range that would also do pretty well for my wants, but they don’t say what the speed settings actually do in any detail, unlike Varla’s manuals which are quite good.
no way to brake fast on a standup scooter.
 

Nycturne

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no way to brake fast on a standup scooter.

There’s a lot of variability on the brake quality on these things. A reviewer was able to stop the Pegasus from about 27mph to 0 going downhill in around a second (would need a proper distance measurement), which is better than I expected. It puts it in a similar category to an e-bike of similar weight like the one I ride regularly. Varla claims the Pegasus also has ABS, but not sure how well that would work in practice.

But of course all the more reason to be using them at sensible speeds, yes? Don’t outspeed your ability to stop in current conditions?
 

fooferdoggie

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This is simply not true at all, I can stop that thing on a dime pretty much anytime I want, even at 18 or 19 MPH.
stopping that fast on one will toss you right off the front. stopping is always limited to what you can do without loosing control. but it also depend on how much you weigh too.
 

Eric

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stopping that fast on one will toss you right off the front. stopping is always limited to what you can do without loosing control. but it also depend on how much you weigh too.
I get you have an issue with scooters but don't presume to tell me what my experience is with them. This is a factually incorrect statement with clear bias.
 

fooferdoggie

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I get you have an issue with scooters but don't presume to tell me what my experience is with them. This is a factually incorrect statement with clear bias.
I don't have an issue with scooters. but they have a lot of limitations. I have ridden on the road for many years from regular bikes to recumbents to scooters stand up and sitdown and e bikes.
 

Nycturne

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stopping that fast on one will toss you right off the front. stopping is always limited to what you can do without loosing control. but it also depend on how much you weigh too.

Not to be too much of a dogpile, but good braking technique when doing emergency braking helps a lot here. ~10 foot braking from 15mph to 0 is absolutely doable on pavement with the right technique and brakes. (YouTube link is set to start on the part about braking technique)

 

fooferdoggie

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Not to be too much of a dogpile, but good braking technique when doing emergency braking helps a lot here. ~10 foot braking from 15mph to 0 is absolutely doable on pavement with the right technique and brakes. (YouTube link is set to start on the part about braking technique)


yes it can be but you need to pracice it too. but the grip of the scooter tires and the mass of weight so high its limited. its what you can do in an emergancy that really counts.
 

Nycturne

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yes it can be but you need to pracice it too. but the grip of the scooter tires and the mass of weight so high its limited. its what you can do in an emergancy that really counts.

And the same can be said about bikes. Proper braking technique is required there in emergency conditions too, lest I lock the front wheel and lift the back off the ground in the process. Something I have done. But at the end of the day, I don't see any of this as a compelling argument precisely because it's not really worse than my bikes. The technique is different, but I can still produce a comparable end result. So your comment of "no way to stop fast on a standup scooter" still perplexes me. And I thought the whole point is that we are talking about emergency braking. Nobody should want to be doing this sort of braking all the time.

That said, there's certainly some limitations to the geometry of scooters, stability being the one that jumped out to me the most as I started to learn how to ride (and why having the steering damper on the Pegasus is interesting). But braking technique is actually easier for me because I don't have the scooter itself in the way of me adjusting my center of gravity when I have to. But if I was maybe 20 years older, I probably wouldn't have an easy a time.

In the case of the Ninebot, I suspect the reason it doesn't have a front brake is precisely to make it easier to control in braking situations by avoiding the whole "front wheel locks with good traction and almost all forward momentum gets converted into rotational movement". It isn't perfect in slick conditions, but it still manages to keep up with a lot of dual-brake scooters in the price range in terms of stopping distance.
 

Eric

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And the same can be said about bikes. Proper braking technique is required there in emergency conditions too, lest I lock the front wheel and lift the back off the ground in the process. Something I have done. But at the end of the day, I don't see any of this as a compelling argument precisely because it's not really worse than my bikes. The technique is different, but I can still produce a comparable end result. So your comment of "no way to stop fast on a standup scooter" still perplexes me. And I thought the whole point is that we are talking about emergency braking. Nobody should want to be doing this sort of braking all the time.

That said, there's certainly some limitations to the geometry of scooters, stability being the one that jumped out to me the most as I started to learn how to ride (and why having the steering damper on the Pegasus is interesting). But braking technique is actually easier for me because I don't have the scooter itself in the way of me adjusting my center of gravity when I have to. But if I was maybe 20 years older, I probably wouldn't have an easy a time.

In the case of the Ninebot, I suspect the reason it doesn't have a front brake is precisely to make it easier to control in braking situations by avoiding the whole "front wheel locks with good traction and almost all forward momentum gets converted into rotational movement". It isn't perfect in slick conditions, but it still manages to keep up with a lot of dual-brake scooters in the price range in terms of stopping distance.
Right, the weight balance on the Ninebot is such that it isn't going front end over end as implied. I literally zoom right up to my stopping point and hammer the breaks and it comes to an immediate stop without any issues every time. This claim is pretty much baseless.
 

Nycturne

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Right, the weight balance on the Ninebot is such that it isn't going front end over end as implied. I literally zoom right up to my stopping point and hammer the breaks and it comes to an immediate stop without any issues every time. This claim is pretty much baseless.
Oh, I have no doubt that I could throw myself over the front of the bars in the right conditions if I'm not paying attention. And it is common enough that videos like the one I shared are providing a useful service.

I just don't see this as a novel problem. People need to be trained on safe use of pretty much any vehicle, and they all have quirks and differences.
 

Eric

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Oh, I have no doubt that I could throw myself over the front of the bars in the right conditions if I'm not paying attention. And it is common enough that videos like the one I shared are providing a useful service.

I just don't see this as a novel problem. People need to be trained on safe use of pretty much any vehicle, and they all have quirks and differences.
Fair enough, not having looked at any videos I can only speak for my own experiences and I've never come close to anything like that. At least with my weight (around 175) when I hammer the breaks at full speed I can stop on a dime, even on hills. I would think it would take a lot of force to throw one over the handle bars or even thrust them forward because so much of the weight is in the center to rear.
 

Nycturne

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The Pegasus showed up earlier than I expected today. Early thoughts:

Steering with a damper means you want to lean into turns more, but that combined with the suspension makes it take the poorly maintained roads in my neighborhood quite well. It also is generally more stable up to around 20mph and has less stem “shimmy” at speed (I haven’t even used it on the third “gear” which unlocks the full speed). Climbs hills that the Ninebot stalled on, and does 18mph up hills the Ninebot could only do 6mph on. So far I think the core of what is here is quite good and does address the few complaints.

Acceleration is quite leisurely and picks up the longer you are on the throttle. This can be tweaked, but it works well for cruising, and does help with the default being able to throttle from a dead stop. I might convert it to kick start in the settings. Max speed is higher than the manual states. I was going 12mph and 18-19mph in first and second “gears” which is plenty and I don’t see myself using 3rd without more protective gear.

Bad side is that it is very much cost cut. Rattles here and there from things that are a little loose and could have used a washer or two. You need to take time to adjust the brakes and handlebar for good fit or you will have a bad time (my brake pads were rubbing the rotors out of the box). The kickstand should really be longer. The battery pack seems decent enough but has some noticeable voltage sag (almost 3V) when pulling 1kW out of it. So it clearly isn’t quite on the same level of polish as the Ninebot, but was only 100-200$ more. So not surprising.

That said, the battery is “good enough”, the rattles I can fix cheaply, and really the actual thing itself does fine. They did change the stem lock to make it more trouble free in more recent batches (no reviewer seems to have it and the manual still discusses the old lock) which is a good sign that they are looking at ways to improve the thing. When the battery dies I can replace it with a similar 18650 lithium ion pack using better cells and more range if I want. For now I’ll leave it stock.
 

Eric

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The Pegasus showed up earlier than I expected today. Early thoughts:

Steering with a damper means you want to lean into turns more, but that combined with the suspension makes it take the poorly maintained roads in my neighborhood quite well. It also is generally more stable up to around 20mph and has less stem “shimmy” at speed (I haven’t even used it on the third “gear” which unlocks the full speed). Climbs hills that the Ninebot stalled on, and does 18mph up hills the Ninebot could only do 6mph on. So far I think the core of what is here is quite good and does address the few complaints.

Acceleration is quite leisurely and picks up the longer you are on the throttle. This can be tweaked, but it works well for cruising, and does help with the default being able to throttle from a dead stop. I might convert it to kick start in the settings. Max speed is higher than the manual states. I was going 12mph and 18-19mph in first and second “gears” which is plenty and I don’t see myself using 3rd without more protective gear.

Bad side is that it is very much cost cut. Rattles here and there from things that are a little loose and could have used a washer or two. You need to take time to adjust the brakes and handlebar for good fit or you will have a bad time (my brake pads were rubbing the rotors out of the box). The kickstand should really be longer. The battery pack seems decent enough but has some noticeable voltage sag (almost 3V) when pulling 1kW out of it. So it clearly isn’t quite on the same level of polish as the Ninebot, but was only 100-200$ more. So not surprising.

That said, the battery is “good enough”, the rattles I can fix cheaply, and really the actual thing itself does fine. They did change the stem lock to make it more trouble free in more recent batches (no reviewer seems to have it and the manual still discusses the old lock) which is a good sign that they are looking at ways to improve the thing. When the battery dies I can replace it with a similar 18650 lithium ion pack using better cells and more range if I want. For now I’ll leave it stock.
Great to hear it's a better fit, despite its shortcomings which really don't seem to be too major all considering. The ability to climb hills is important but I would also think a decent suspension makes all the difference in the world, the Ninebot is pretty rigid on bumpy roads and I totally get what you're saying about handle bar shake and the lack of feeling stable at higher speeds.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with us here, I'll definitely keep my eye on this thing.
 

Nycturne

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Great to hear it's a better fit, despite its shortcomings which really don't seem to be too major all considering. The ability to climb hills is important but I would also think a decent suspension makes all the difference in the world, the Ninebot is pretty rigid on bumpy roads and I totally get what you're saying about handle bar shake and the lack of feeling stable at higher speeds.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with us here, I'll definitely keep my eye on this thing.

As I’ve been racking up the miles on this: the suspension works best for the larger things you run across in streets and paths. Roots cracking the pavement, dips and small potholes/etc. Keeps things under control when you have to deal with that. But gravel, dirt and gritty asphalt? The solid tires like to communicate that all right up into the scooter. But overall, it’s still an improvement over no suspension at all. All in all, I feel like I have

Got brave enough to do a little riding at 21mph on this thing on roads I know well. Stable. Even at 15mph, I can lean pretty hard and still get good traction because of the very wide tires. It takes getting used to, but it is interesting once you do.

I took the bottom off to take a look inside the deck. Mostly to see what the battery looked like in terms of size. The battery pack seems to be a bit longer than it needs to be for a 13S6P 18650 pack, and it looks like the battery is padded a bit to take up the space. Could probably fit a 14S6P pack in there and make it a 52V setup for longer range. I wonder why they didn’t do that.

In terms of raw build quality, did notice that one of the kickstand bolt holes wasn’t threaded fully, so the screw can’t fully tighten. The kickstand still works and doesn’t move, but if the one good bolt ever comes loose, so does the kickstand. Might consider getting a slightly shorter bolt so it stays in the threads that are there. There is a tiny bit of play in the stem with the new clamp which doesn’t affect riding (I didn’t even notice it until I had put over 30mi on the thing), which can probably be adjusted. Again, no deal breakers, but it’s a bit clear that this was built to price.

From an engineering perspective though, not bad. The deck casting is done well (other than the thread tapping error) and it is clear that making space for cables and cable routing was a core idea. All the wiring has a place to either go, holders to keep it in place when needed (complete with threaded mounting points in the deck, and channels for wiring heading to the stem or the motors, which is good for a single piece casting like this. Charger wires go straight to the battery pack, using an XT40(?) connector. So clearly the pack itself contains the BMS, which isn’t surprising. Then two XT60 connectors come off the battery pack, each going to a motor controller, one for the front, one for the back. The power connectors off the battery are fused and the fuses replaceable. Neat little addition is the casting of the deck is such that some foam helps hold the battery pack which is encased in insulating epoxy resin boards. And there is a cage that further restrains the battery and prevents it from moving. The bottom half of the deck is plastic, but a metal skid plate helps provide even more protection for the battery and other electronics. About the only complaint about what I saw inside was the motor controllers didn’t seem to have any clear mountings, either they were buried under the routed wires, or they were possibly glued in. I’d be somewhat surprised if they were glued in though, since they would be the only thing glued into the deck other than foam.

Yeah, a little cheap in some component selection (that battery voltage sag…), but I don’t feel like they cut corners on the electrical work and battery protection which is good. I would have put the fuse holders on the other side of the XT60 connectors, so that they don’t add cost to battery replacements since the fuses are replaceable separately, though.

I’m somewhat curious if the system could take 52V or not from the battery (the e-bike controller technically can, but can the motors?) since there is space for a 14S6P pack in the deck. But it would still be possible to go from a 48V/15.6Ah pack (2600mAh cells) to a 48V/20.7Ah pack (3450mAh cells) at roughly the same weight down the road.
 

Nycturne

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I've seen good reviews on various sites, some people cite less well known brands as "better value", but I've heard Segue has excellent customer service, so that factors into the price (vs. an AliExpress Special :D) Good specs, excellent range, and close to 20MPH top speed on a scooter is pretty quick!

I think this is the crux of it, honestly. And it reveals something I kinda hate about how markets work these days. These other brands can be very good platforms, and very good spec sheet value per dollar, but there's a very myopic "value/dollar" thing going on. 3D printers are kinda the same way right now. I get some of it is due to rising economic inequality that makes it such that mass market products are going to be more like this, but it honestly sucks. It reminds me of the bit about how the rich person who can afford the nicer shoes spends less on shoes than the poor person.

But here's the thing that I think Segway does really well and doesn't get nearly enough credit for: Holistic thinking about the product. The P100S is a 25mph (30mph unlockable) scooter with proper turn signals (hell, those are useful at 15mph on residential roads where you will encounter cars, but few scooters have them at all). Speed restriction features to keep it under 20mph you can toggle from the app. Brakes that aren't cheap and squeaky. Better battery cells that make range estimation easier. Build quality to match. Not as cheap as the competition, but the competition generally builds to hit spec targets and make it as cheap as possible once the spec targets are met, so it's not going to be easy to build for a quality target and be price competitive against that these days.

While I do think the Varla Pegasus is a good scooter for what it offers, I don't think I'd recommend it over the Segway if price isn't your key concern. And looking what it would take to address the brakes, give it a larger battery, etc, etc... I'm not that far off the price of just a better scooter (or the P100S during the pre-order sales). So I'd honestly rather just recommend people spend up for quality, rather than modify a scooter (unless you already have a scooter you like).
 
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