Fighting in Israel

[User.45]

Imagine if some Mexican terrorists launched rockets into Texas and America responded by leveling high-rise buildings in Mexico City. This is unconscionable. I was opposed to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, but at least America tried to abide by the LOAC. (Law of Armed Conflict) Targeting civilian buildings with the excuse that Hamas is hiding there is just wrong. And despite destroying these buildings, the rockets keep coming. The point is to make Palestinians suffer, not to stop the rockets directly. Counter-terrorist operations would focus on infiltrating their networks and stopping them. Bombing civilians does nothing except breed more terrorists.

http://www.genevacall.org/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2013/11/The-Law-of-Armed-Conflict.pdf

The IDF's stance is that Hamas places rocket launching stations near or on civilian buildings, so that if Palestinians suffer civilian casulties Israel gets bad press. Now some of these statements are corroborated by the UN, confirming such near schools and a hospital. The extent is a question though that I couldn't find an exact answer to. Now the article I cited just illustrates that IDF is certainly into the "look what you made me do" business. They told international media that they entered Gaza and moved their tanks to the edge of the border, making Hamas attack tanks and reveal their positions, which the IDF then bombed to rubble.

 

[Huntn]

When Western powers carved out a slice of the Middle East post WWII as a homeland for Jews, I think at this point it can be argued that it was well meaning but not well thought out. My main critique is that while I don’t consider this all Israel’s fault, their moves to ”protect“ themselves and never be taken advantage of again, seems to mean depriving their Arab neighbors of their rights. The idea of basically stealing more land for expanded settlements seems to be the height of folly, along with depriving Arab neighbors of the right to happy lives In the name of my security.

I am not happy with Biden’s statement simply that Israel has a right to defend itself. Now it’s possible he said more on the topic that I have not heard. When one party keeps the neighbors under their thumb long enough and violence breaks out, you just can’t say oh they are defending themselves, or have a right to defend themselves, you have to examine the root causes and assign blame where it belongs, and Israel would get a fair share of the blame.

WATCH: Huge explosion as Israel destroys Hamas-affiliated bank

A crowd watched as warning missiles struck a high-rise housing the Intaj Bank in Gaza City, before an airstrike leveled the entire building.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[SuperMatt]

The IDF's stance is that Hamas places rocket launching stations near or on civilian buildings, so that if Palestinians suffer civilian casulties Israel gets bad press. Now some of these statements are corroborated by the UN, confirming such near schools and a hospital. The extent is a question though that I couldn't find an exact answer to. Now the article I cited just illustrates that IDF is certainly into the "look what you made me do" business. They told international media that they entered Gaza and moved their tanks to the edge of the border, making Hamas attack tanks and reveal their positions, which the IDF then bombed to rubble.

Well I guess the IDF should just bomb every single school and hospital in one massive offensive since that’s where the terrorists are. Who cares if you kill every child in Palestine? Syria took this strategy and they won their civil war, so Netanyahu can join Bashar Al-Assad as another middle eastern leader who successfully quelled an uprising.

America is just about the only country left supporting Israel and its war crimes. If America withdrew its unconditional support for Israel, it might actually lead to some peace talks. But as long as Israel with its superior military can keep this up, they have no reason to stop. So far in this conflict, the casualty ratio is something like 100 to 1? Why would Israel NOT bomb Palestinian buildings at will if America keeps supporting them?

 

[User.45]

Well I guess the IDF should just bomb every single school and hospital in one massive offensive since that’s where the terrorists are. Who cares if you kill every child in Palestine? Syria took this strategy and they won their civil war, so Netanyahu can join Bashar Al-Assad as another middle eastern leader who successfully quelled an uprising.

America is just about the only country left supporting Israel and its war crimes. If America withdrew its unconditional support for Israel, it might actually lead to some peace talks. But as long as Israel with its superior military can keep this up, they have no reason to stop. So far in this conflict, the casualty ratio is something like 100 to 1? Why would Israel NOT bomb Palestinian buildings at will if America keeps supporting them?

From many respects, this is similar to cops terrorizing the civilian population in the USA. There are some people who blindly accept police accounts with statements like "XY overwhelming force has the right to self-defense" (remember @Gutwrench pulling this again and again), whereas the raw numbers of casualties clearly indicate that there is a systemic issue pointing beyond mere self-defense issues.

 

[JayMysteri0]

Imagine if some Mexican terrorists launched rockets into Texas and America responded by leveling high-rise buildings in Mexico City. This is unconscionable. I was opposed to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, but at least America tried to abide by the LOAC. (Law of Armed Conflict) Targeting civilian buildings with the excuse that Hamas is hiding there is just wrong. And despite destroying these buildings, the rockets keep coming. The point is to make Palestinians suffer, not to stop the rockets directly. Counter-terrorist operations would focus on infiltrating their networks and stopping them. Bombing civilians does nothing except breed more terrorists.

http://www.genevacall.org/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2013/11/The-Law-of-Armed-Conflict.pdf

For me though, you have to add one more bit.

Imagine if Texas decided it needed MORE land, so it went over the border kicked out the few people living on the habitable land to move Texans in, and the United States extended it's border to absorb that. Now imagine some enraged Mexicans who decide on Terrorism to voice their obvious issue with what Texas did so they launched rockets. In response claiming to defend Texas, the US responded by leveling high rise buildings.

Oh, did I leave out the Border Patrol storming a Mexican church during worship, because the Mexicans had the audacity to be mad at being kicked from THEIR homes?!

The point is also to prop up their version of 45, to get the country to rally behind a corrupt leader. What's basically happening there is the worst fear we had here, that 45 would start a war to stay in power.

Once again I hard pressed to understand how there isn't more sympathy for the Palestinians who are being killed in excessive numbers to the number killed in Israel. That's just not a narrative I can believe anyone swallows as Israel being the victims here.

This is the international version of the thing that triggers me the most. I started a fight intentionally, and THEN "I became in fear for my life" to justify deadly force. Yes, I get HAMAS is a blight, but this war by Israel is basically HELPING them gain more influence.

 

[SuperMatt]

The scariest bit about the support of Israel is that it’s mostly coming from the right these days, and part of the reason is based on fundamentalist religious interpretations of end-times prophecies.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/half-of-evangelicals-support-israel-because-they-believe-it-is-important-for-fulfilling-end-times-prophecy/

Why is Jerusalem so important to American Evangelical Christians?

The Holy Land plays important role in US evangelical Christians' view of end-times

www.independent.co.uk

 

[JayMysteri0]

The scariest bit about the support of Israel is that it’s mostly coming from the right these days, and part of the reason is based on fundamentalist religious interpretations of end-times prophecies.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/05/14/half-of-evangelicals-support-israel-because-they-believe-it-is-important-for-fulfilling-end-times-prophecy/

View attachment 5157

Why is Jerusalem so important to American Evangelical Christians?

The Holy Land plays important role in US evangelical Christians' view of end-times

www.independent.co.uk

I believe also in their "stories" in involves a whole lot of Jewish people dying at the end.

What a "happy" fricken story that is.

 

[JayMysteri0]

Again. This is defense?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1393621238476591107/

Still looks like you know you're doing wrong, and want to discourage reporting on it.

 

[User.45]

Again. This is defense?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1393621238476591107/

Still looks like you know you're doing wrong, and want to discourage reporting on it.

AP is now pushing back on the claims of having "Hamas offices" in the building. It's a very good point that an agency that's in the intel business would be A) unaware or B) jeopardize the security of their employees by allowing such hazard as a shared space with a potential military target...

 

[SuperMatt]

Again. This is defense?

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1393621238476591107/

Still looks like you know you're doing wrong, and want to discourage reporting on it.

Yeah looks like a lot of rockets are being launched out of that office building… NOT.

 

[User.45]

Yeah looks like a lot of rockets are being launched out of that office building… NOT.

AP often used the roof for live coverage of Gaza... So it's quite absurd.

 

[JayMysteri0]

AP is now pushing back on the claims of having "Hamas offices" in the building. It's a very good point that an agency that's in the intel business would be A) unaware or B) jeopardize the security of their employees by allowing such hazard as a shared space with a potential military target...

Because Israel would be the most reliable of narrators in such a story.



Israel: "Trust us, we know. We wouldn't bomb indiscriminately."

Al Jazeera: "Yes, we know. No one has ever bombed where we are indiscriminately."

 

[JayMysteri0]

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1393976482146492426/

 

[JayMysteri0]

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1394096352657825792/

 

[ouimetnick]

Some atheist from a country with no skin in the game with nothing to lose or gain should be in charge of brokering peace or just making a decision both sides need to live by.

My Trump worshiping Isreali bootlicker friend said

You are literally making no sense with this argument. So I will try to clarify things as simply as possible: Hamas attack Israel with rockets. Israel defend them self with iron dome. Israel retaliates and wipes out aggressor.

This is why it's near impossible to debate Trump **** suckers. They either argue in bad faith or they are being indoctrinated by cable news and are't smart enough.

I asked him why he likes Israel so much, his response

Like I said, I don’t care about the history of the conflict between the two factions. Just understand that if you attack a country, you will be attacked back. I’m not loyal to anyone in that disaster called the Middle East. But I know Israel respects the United States. So I will respect Israel and defend them

He also added that he respects them because they don't stone to death gays, beat woman, etc... Because obviously we all know every Palestinian man does that. /s

I tried to get through to him that not every Palestinian beats their wives and kills gays just like how not every christian owned bakery refuses to serve a gay couple and not every Christian cheats on 3 wives but it didn't get to his head. He also claims the Palestinian children are raised to hate the USA (I told him that if said country was helping another country destroy my home and neighborhood, I would hate said country, and raise my children the same.. oh wait, we already do) We teach people to hate all the time.

No one is born hating someone, hate it taught. Every country teaches it's people to hate another country/religion/group. It's certainly not exclusive to Palestine or Israel.

Just look at the logic and failing of a defense of this Trump ass kisser. I remember Trump said Obama liked Biden cause Biden kissed his ass... Trump must love this kid.And as you can clearly see, I do not like Trump on MacRumors or MacBoomers, I do not like Trump here or there, I do not like him or Jared anywhere, I do not like them in a bar, I do not like them from afar.

 

[Thomas Veil]

AP often used the roof for live coverage of Gaza... So it's quite absurd.

And that’s the point. Or vantage point, if you prefer. As you say, news services often use the roof of the building for live TV coverage. And Israel doesn’t want you seeing what they’re doing.

You got to give the Israelis credit though—they think big. In the United States, when cops want to control the narrative, they turn off their body cameras. Israel blows up entire media centers.

 

[User.45]

And that’s the point. Or vantage point, if you prefer. As you say, news services often use the roof of the building for live TV coverage. And Israel doesn’t want you seeing what they’re doing.

You got to give the Israelis credit though—they think big. In the United States, when cops want to control the narrative, they turn off their body cameras. Israel blows up entire media centers.

This. And the PR cost is being underestimated. Sometimes I can't see what the IDF thinks, disinforming media for military gains but also expecting to be considered credible by the media. In the same conflict?!

 

[User.45]

Some atheist from a country with no skin in the game with nothing to lose or gain should be in charge of brokering peace or just making a decision both sides need to live by.

My Trump worshiping Isreali bootlicker friend said



This is why it's near impossible to debate Trump **** suckers. They either argue in bad faith or they are being indoctrinated by cable news and are't smart enough.

I asked him why he likes Israel so much, his response



He also added that he respects them because they don't stone to death gays, beat woman, etc... Because obviously we all know every Palestinian man does that. /s

I tried to get through to him that not every Palestinian beats their wives and kills gays just like how not every christian owned bakery refuses to serve a gay couple and not every Christian cheats on 3 wives but it didn't get to his head. He also claims the Palestinian children are raised to hate the USA (I told him that if said country was helping another country destroy my home and neighborhood, I would hate said country, and raise my children the same.. oh wait, we already do) We teach people to hate all the time.

No one is born hating someone, hate it taught. Every country teaches it's people to hate another country/religion/group. It's certainly not exclusive to Palestine or Israel.

Just look at the logic and failing of a defense of this Trump ass kisser. I remember Trump said Obama liked Biden cause Biden kissed his ass... Trump must love this kid.And as you can clearly see, I do not like Trump on MacRumors or MacBoomers, I do not like Trump here or there, I do not like him or Jared anywhere, I do not like them in a bar, I do not like them from afar.

Some atheist from a country with no skin in the game with nothing to lose or gain should be in charge of brokering peace or just making a decision both sides need to live by.

My Trump worshiping Isreali bootlicker friend said



This is why it's near impossible to debate Trump **** suckers. They either argue in bad faith or they are being indoctrinated by cable news and are't smart enough.

I asked him why he likes Israel so much, his response



He also added that he respects them because they don't stone to death gays, beat woman, etc... Because obviously we all know every Palestinian man does that. /s

I tried to get through to him that not every Palestinian beats their wives and kills gays just like how not every christian owned bakery refuses to serve a gay couple and not every Christian cheats on 3 wives but it didn't get to his head. He also claims the Palestinian children are raised to hate the USA (I told him that if said country was helping another country destroy my home and neighborhood, I would hate said country, and raise my children the same.. oh wait, we already do) We teach people to hate all the time.

No one is born hating someone, hate it taught. Every country teaches it's people to hate another country/religion/group. It's certainly not exclusive to Palestine or Israel.

Just look at the logic and failing of a defense of this Trump ass kisser. I remember Trump said Obama liked Biden cause Biden kissed his ass... Trump must love this kid.And as you can clearly see, I do not like Trump on MacRumors or MacBoomers, I do not like Trump here or there, I do not like him or Jared anywhere, I do not like them in a bar, I do not like them from afar.

Your friend has never met a single real-life Palestinian. I am definitely surrounded by well-adjusted people, but our team included American-born muslims, religious and atheistic jews, palestinian atheists, etc. We didn't get along just fine; we were like family. The only time I've caught a glimpse of anger was when one of the jewish guys bragged about his "birth-right" trip to Israel in the presence of a palestinian guy, who could not return... Both of them were very open about their feelings and experiences about this and acknowledged each other's viewpoint and we went on like business as usual. There was no ill will, anger or anything to follow this, because we all understand that geopolitical bullshit is geopolitical bullshit.
--------
Regarding Trump's middle east policy, I think it is definitely the most sophisticated thing Trump ever did during his presidency. He legitimized (at least tried to) territories that Israel annexed illegally (as defined by the UN). He stood behind a new map of Palestine some called a "Swiss cheese state" (see photo for illustration). I think one doesn't have to be a geopolitical expert to understand how such layout is prohibitive for infrastructure, commerce, and just free movement and how volatile it would get in an already volatile region. I'm unaware of a country in the world where such layout would not lead to and perpetuate conflict. Trump was good at pulling a carrot on a stick for Saudi Arabia in exchange to pulling other arabic countries into some kind of deals, and I wonder how letting them get away with Khashooghi's murder played a role as leverage. So yes, I think Trump was really good at representing and pushing for Israel's interests in the region. What's more a matter of interpretation is whether 1) Are those really the equivalent of the interests of USA? 2) Would the human rights costs be worth the peace? 3) what would have been the longer term implications of these deals?

I'd love to hear @Scepticalscribe's take on this (if you're willing to weigh in).

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

For me though, you have to add one more bit.

Imagine if Texas decided it needed MORE land, so it went over the border kicked out the few people living on the habitable land to move Texans in, and the United States extended it's border to absorb that. Now imagine some enraged Mexicans who decide on Terrorism to voice their obvious issue with what Texas did so they launched rockets. In response claiming to defend Texas, the US responded by leveling high rise buildings.

Oh, did I leave out the Border Patrol storming a Mexican church during worship, because the Mexicans had the audacity to be mad at being kicked from THEIR homes?!

The point is also to prop up their version of 45, to get the country to rally behind a corrupt leader. What's basically happening there is the worst fear we had here, that 45 would start a war to stay in power.

Once again I hard pressed to understand how there isn't more sympathy for the Palestinians who are being killed in excessive numbers to the number killed in Israel. That's just not a narrative I can believe anyone swallows as Israel being the victims here.

This is the international version of the thing that triggers me the most. I started a fight intentionally, and THEN "I became in fear for my life" to justify deadly force. Yes, I get HAMAS is a blight, but this war by Israel is basically HELPING them gain more influence.

I recently wondered what would happen if the US split up into different red or blue countries. With few exceptions, I have no doubt the red would invade blue when they realize their harsh economic reality.

 

[JayMysteri0]

I recently wondered what would happen if the US split up into different red or blue countries. With few exceptions, I have no doubt the red would invade blue when they realize their harsh economic reality.

I don't remember the stories, but that scenario has been covered a few times in comic books & sci fi.

Basically the country finds itself split into little fiefdoms wanting what the others have.

If it's a story told from the pre Q conspiracy nuts - the big gov't haters, the holy land is always a mythical version of the Pacific Northwest where men can still be men blah blah.