Georgia Senate race cliffhanger

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lizkat

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If a mob riots out in the open then you water cannon them into submission to regain control of the situation. That is the rule of law. These people are terrorists who attempted to overthrow the gov't today so you must put that insurrection down immediately to regain control. The rule of law says to regain control by that means necessary - when you cross into that building then that is death. These terrorists should have been shot dead by DC police.

There is a fundamental difference between a mob rioting and a First Amendment protected assembly in the USA. When that difference is elided by violence in an erstwhile protected assembly, law enforcement in the USA doesn't automatically shift to a war footing, they shift to defense of life and limb and property.
 
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SuperMatt

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There is a fundamental difference between a mob rioting and a First Amendment protected assembly in the USA. When that difference is elided by violence in an erstwhile protected assembly, law enforcement in the USA doesn't automatically shift to a war footing, they shift to defense of life and limb and property.
These people are armed and violent. The first amendment protects peaceful assemblies.
 

lizkat

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These people are armed and violent. The first amendment protects peaceful assemblies.

Exactly but when it's not peaceful then it's unlawful, not automatically a matter of warfare or treason or terrorism. Those charges get made later. First restore peace and try to do it with minimal injury to all parties.

If somebody breaks into another’s house, they can kill them in self-defense. These terrorists publicly stated they are there to overturn the government, and entered the Capitol by force. It would be reasonable for the police to start shooting the minute they busted through the door.

That being said, I am glad they didn’t fire on the terrorists. The Capitol police were WOEFULLY unprepared for something like this. They should have expected it and had far more robust procedures in place. It wasn’t a surprise that thousands were here with insurrection on their mind.

No one wanted to play into a scene where armed troops were taking on supposedly unarmed protesters. Of course Trump has wanted an excuse to declare martial law and suspend habeas corpus and all that, but the DoD knew that and declined to send out Nat Guard.. which is why the DC mayor and Gov of VA made the alternate arrangements. She is who asked for the Guard and got a response.
 

dogslobber

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There is a fundamental difference between a mob rioting and a First Amendment protected assembly in the USA. When that difference is elided by violence in an erstwhile protected assembly, law enforcement in the USA doesn't automatically shift to a war footing, they shift to defense of life and limb and property.
They're terrorists. We don't give in to terrorists. We execute them.
 

Arkitect

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So the Dems w/ VP-Elect Harris as the tie breaker will run the table in the 117th Senate.


I hope they make the most of it.
 

lizkat

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If a mob riots out in the open then you water cannon them into submission to regain control of the situation. That is the rule of law. These people are terrorists who attempted to overthrow the gov't today so you must put that insurrection down immediately to regain control. The rule of law says to regain control by that means necessary - when you cross into that building then that is death. These terrorists should have been shot dead by DC police.

Maybe you were not around for Kent State University shooting by National Guardsmen of unarmed students at an antiwar rally in 1970. A lot of things changed after that in how protests that get out of hand are managed in order to avoid escalation of violence from what BEGAN as protected assembly.

Yeah the responses can get out of hand, e.g. what happened on the West Coast.

They're terrorists. We don't give in to terrorists. We execute them.

We don't run rule of law from the streets as prosecutor, judge, jury, executioner. We don't change our view of rule of law just because we may not like who shows up to a protest. There are prescribed ways to deal with a protest gone bad and charges to be brought up later (and amended as necessary).
 

lizkat

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I hope they make the most of it.

Shit for my money they can start by demonstrating an efficient trial and removal of the current president of the United States of America after Pelosi's chamber brings new, simple impeachment charges. I am pretty sure by this time they could round up the extra GOP Senators they need to get.that.done...
 

Scepticalscribe

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I hope they make the most of it.

Shit for my money they can start by demonstrating an efficient trial and removal of the current president of the United States of America after Pelosi's chamber brings new, simple impeachment charges. I am pretty sure by this time they could round up the extra GOP Senators they need to get.that.done...

That would be a very fitting example of how the rule of law might work.
 

SuperMatt

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Shit for my money they can start by demonstrating an efficient trial and removal of the current president of the United States of America after Pelosi's chamber brings new, simple impeachment charges. I am pretty sure by this time they could round up the extra GOP Senators they need to get.that.done...
Ilhan Omar is already calling for an impeachment.
 

lizkat

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Ilhan Omar is already calling for an impeachment.

I'm surprised McConnell didn't beat her to it !!! He probably was trying to reach Pelosi but there are protesters in her office and the whole building will need to be fumigated for covid thanks to mask-free BS artists roaming around in there all day.
 

dogslobber

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We don't run rule of law from the streets as prosecutor, judge, jury, executioner. We don't change our view of rule of law just because we may not like who shows up to a protest. There are prescribed ways to deal with a protest gone bad and charges to be brought up later (and amended as necessary).
I respect your opinion but I disagree with how you should treat these people enacting what they did.
 

lizkat

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I respect your opinion but I disagree with how you should treat these people enacting what they did.

Well personally I feel like sitting them down and putting their arms and legs in stocks out on the Mall for a couple weeks. Maybe Donald Trump could arrange to have fast food and diet sodas delivered.

But Kent State protest was an irreparable tragedy and no one wanted to have anything like that again.

People have a right to protest peacefully. This protest was permitted, and then got out of bounds and out of hand entirely. It's questionable whether it was ever wise to jack up the permitted crowd limit to 30k from 5k without the Capitol police suggesting that the DC mayor make advance arrangements to have more security brought in from Virginia or Maryland.

Of course I am not at all sure some of the folks heading to the DC protest today ever meant to behave peacefully. But that's not my call and it can't afford to be the call of some hapless officer on the Capitol Police force, so they're going to resist using more force than they've been taught to use at protests. Shooting instead of gassing, for instance, is not going to be the tactic of choice. Their biggest problem was not having enough warm bodies on their side. This could have been prevented with better advance prep. It's not like they didn't have issues before with some Proud Boys and so forth earlier on. So they knew to expect trouble even without Trump egging them on for this event.

But Trump... should pay big time for this. Never run for public office again.
 

lizkat

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Annnnd... no recount expected on Jon Ossoff's Senate seat win in Georgia. His margin is now well above the .5% mark for required recount and climbing as remaining and heavily Democratic-inclined ballots are being counted. The NYT has estimated his final margin over David Perdue will be about 1.1%.

 

thekev

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She's the new kid on the Glock!

I have always thought of myself as the man with the golden pun. I guess this is the forum version of the end of that movie.

Normally I'm for a balance of power in the House and Senate but after the way they've blown up this country handing the keys of the whole thing over to Democrats is the only way we're ever going to get through this. Struggling people need that stimulus, not huge corporations and the rich. We also need a comprehensive rollout and distribution of the vaccine on a federal level, something they haven't and never would've never done.

Sorry Republicans, you've fucked up royally and it's time the people were represented by their government.

That's silly. This isn't imbalanced. The balance as it stands isn't at a point where it allows Democrats to completely ignore others, and even then, the Democratic party is not dominated by its liberal members.
 

lizkat

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Well it's possible the Dems will blow up the filibuster and then they can do whatever they like, which might or might not be a great idea with nearly half the country potentially quite unhappy over some of it. And much less great when they lose the Senate again and its the right doing whatever it likes with 51 votes.

At this red hot moment though, that's irrelevant since it's the Republican Party being dominated by that obstinate son of a so and so Senator Josh Hawley... else the electoral votes count for Biden's inevitable victory confirmation would be continuing in the joint session, but no they have withdrawn once again to separate chambers to debate objections to Pennsylvania's votes.

Missouri should rue the day they replaced Sen.McCaskill by Hawley: a clueless, feckless wannbe inheritor of Trump's base.
 
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