Iranian Nuclear Scientist Assassinated, Israel Blamed

Huntn

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If so, is the terrorist label applicable?

 

Mark

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extra-judicial killings are universally illegal.

the USA and the Western aligned democracies will rue the day they do not condemn, and follow up with sanctions against, any nation or quasi-nation state that asssinates people.

Israel is infamous for this. and the USA has resorted to this tactic frequently.

there is moral equivalence between killing this Iranian nuclear scientist and Russia killing its émigrés living in the UK.

if your moral stance allows for war to be conducted against adversaries who are threatening you, then the only way such an act should be carried out is if there is a war stance against that adversary. war means war. but peace should mean peace. peace means discussions and treaties. like the one trump pulled the USA out of.

Iran retuning the act of aggression the USA did by assassinating one of its Generals while in Iraq makes all Americans targets anywhere.
the opaque greyness of "in-between" wars increases international chaos, and will lead to just more war.
 

iMi

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I will only say this — we need to stop supporting Israel. They are not allies and certainly not acting in our best interest. I am tired of seeing our tax dollars sent to them and our bombs killing Palestinian citizens. What exactly is Israel doing for us or the rest of the world? Just to be clear — I am not an antisemite. These views are not driven by some Nazi ideology.

Then we deal with Iran on our own terms and in partnership with our allies. Obama had it right. We need to go back to the Iranian deal and work to de-escalate. Besides, I am a lot more worried about Pakistan and India. If a nuclear war breaks out, it will be there.
 
U

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I respect your opinion but I support Israel and glad the United States does as well.
I will only say this — we need to stop supporting Israel. They are not allies and certainly not acting in our best interest. I am tired of seeing our tax dollars sent to them and our bombs killing Palestinian citizens. What exactly is Israel doing for us or the rest of the world? Just to be clear — I am not an antisemite. These views are not driven by some Nazi ideology.

Then we deal with Iran on our own terms and in partnership with our allies. Obama had it right. We need to go back to the Iranian deal and work to de-escalate. Besides, I am a lot more worried about Pakistan and India. If a nuclear war breaks out, it will be there.
Israel and the Middle East are generally topics I prefer to avoid because it's full of bat shit craziness, and I often have a difficult time telling who are the sane folks. I have a lot of Jewish and a lot of Palestinian friends, and many of these friends of mine are friends of each other too. I'm glad that Israel exists and although I've never visited (yet), to me it is a n absolutely fascinating thing to see how the jewish diaspora blends together in one focal point. I've heard stories from both sides and I would never want to be stuck in the middle of conflicts that I don't fully grasp. Yet, human rights violations are human rights violations and we need to call them out no matter who commits them. I think under Trump and the evangelicals the USA-Israel relationship took some really weird directions and I can't really make a rational sense of it. Funny enough, the craziest viewpoint I've heard came from a libertarian who told me that NYC's enforcement of the COVID restrictions on the Hasidic community was antisemitic and that Palestine is a terrorist nation. C'mon.
 

iMi

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I respect your opinion but I support Israel and glad the United States does as well.

Why do you support Israel?

Israel and the Middle East are generally topics I prefer to avoid because it's full of bat shit craziness, and I often have a difficult time telling who are the sane folks. I have a lot of Jewish and a lot of Palestinian friends, and many of these friends of mine are friends of each other too. I'm glad that Israel exists and although I've never visited (yet), to me it is a n absolutely fascinating thing to see how the jewish diaspora blends together in one focal point. I've heard stories from both sides and I would never want to be stuck in the middle of conflicts that I don't fully grasp. Yet, human rights violations are human rights violations and we need to call them out no matter who commits them. I think under Trump and the evangelicals the USA-Israel relationship took some really weird directions and I can't really make a rational sense of it. Funny enough, the craziest viewpoint I've heard came from a libertarian who told me that NYC's enforcement of the COVID restrictions on the Hasidic community was antisemitic and that Palestine is a terrorist nation. C'mon.

It's a dicey topic, I get it.

Let me add some perspective on my viewpoints. I was born and raised in Europe. Everyone on Grandma's side was jewish and she was one of the few who survive the war. She had frost bites on her feet from digging trenches for the Germans. On my father's side, his grandfather was in the resistance. They sheltered and moved jews, while engaging Nazis. Our grand-uncle was a pilot and after Poland fell he fought with the French until he escaped to England, where he has fought and died in the Battle of Britain. Our family has a long tradition of fighting for the right of jews to exist and live free lives. I would say collectively we've lost 70% of our family prior to my father's generation.

Having said all that, I don't support Israel for several reasons and will be happy to articulate them.
  • They are a bully. They hide behind the holocaust and the 1947 partition of Palestine. They resettle jews, sanctioned by us and UN, in what has been a sovereign, native land of the Palestinians. It's really not all that different from what we've done to the native people here.
  • They use our money and our weapons to oppress Palestinians indiscriminately at a rate of 10 to 1 because of the military advantage they have.
  • They have squandered every opportunity at peace and continue to expand into West Bank despite global community asking them to refrain from doing so until an agreement can be reached. They are now in the 500,000 of occupying population, last I remember. It also violates International laws.
  • They took a religion and turned it into a State with land and boarders. I personally oppose such views.
  • They violate international laws, including several provisions of the Geneva convention.
  • Their Prime Minister delivered a diplomatic slap in the face to what is supposed to be their "closest ally" by forgoing a meeting with our head of state, Barack Obama, to meet with Congressional Republicans instead. A move widely criticized by pretty much every other power in the world. It was a shameful display of partisanship and division.
This does not mean that I endorse or support Palestine, either. It doesn't mean that I don't think Israel should not exist.
 
U

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Why do you support Israel?



It's a dicey topic, I get it.

Let me add some perspective on my viewpoints. I was born and raised in Europe. Everyone on Grandma's side was jewish and she was one of the few who survive the war. She had frost bites on her feet from digging trenches for the Germans. On my father's side, his grandfather was in the resistance. They sheltered and moved jews, while engaging Nazis. Our grand-uncle was a pilot and after Poland fell he fought with the French until he escaped to England, where he has fought and died in the Battle of Britain. Our family has a long tradition of fighting for the right of jews to exist and live free lives. I would say collectively we've lost 70% of our family prior to my father's generation.

Having said all that, I don't support Israel for several reasons and will be happy to articulate them.
  • They are a bully. They hide behind the holocaust and the 1947 partition of Palestine. They resettle jews, sanctioned by us and UN, in what has been a sovereign, native land of the Palestinians. It's really not all that different from what we've done to the native people here.
  • They use our money and our weapons to oppress Palestinians indiscriminately at a rate of 10 to 1 because of the military advantage they have.
  • They have squandered every opportunity at peace and continue to expand into West Bank despite global community asking them to refrain from doing so until an agreement can be reached. They are now in the 500,000 of occupying population, last I remember. It also violates International laws.
  • They took a religion and turned it into a State with land and boarders. I personally oppose such views.
  • They violate international laws, including several provisions of the Geneva convention.
  • Their Prime Minister delivered a diplomatic slap in the face to what is supposed to be their "closest ally" by forgoing a meeting with our head of state, Barack Obama, to meet with Congressional Republicans instead. A move widely criticized by pretty much every other power in the world. It was a shameful display of partisanship and division.
This does not mean that I endorse or support Palestine, either. It doesn't mean that I don't think Israel should not exist.
Dicey indeed:) I think jewish people with liberal and conservative views may have opposing opinions on these matters too. Obama was sometimes labeled antisemitic, which cracked me up.

@Gutwrench, I'm also curious to read your elaboration.
 

iMi

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Dicey indeed:) I think jewish people with liberal and conservative views may have opposing opinions on these matters too. Obama was sometimes labeled antisemitic, which cracked me up.

@Gutwrench, I'm also curious to read your elaboration.

President Obama rightfully in my opinion questioned our allegiance to Israel, which of course Republicans immediately turned into an accusation of anti-semitism. It has been perhaps the biggest Obama scandal next to the tan suite fiasco that has nearly destroyed America's standing in the world.

Seriously though, this blind alliance to Israel doesn't make sense. They are not the strategic partner in the region some claim. What have they done? Nothing. What part of our defensive strategy do they play? I'm not sure. Maybe someone can share things I'm unaware of at the moment. What role are they playing in making the world a more peaceful, fair place? No clue. Are we getting oil from them? Nope. Why are we sending them billions of dollars a year while we're running a massive deficit? That's what I'd like to know. If someone can justify it, I'll respectfully listen and reconsider my position. Until then, I think we should stop supporting them.
 

Huntn

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President Obama rightfully in my opinion questioned our allegiance to Israel, which of course Republicans immediately turned into an accusation of anti-semitism. It has been perhaps the biggest Obama scandal next to the tan suite fiasco that has nearly destroyed America's standing in the world.

Seriously though, this blind alliance to Israel doesn't make sense. They are not the strategic partner in the region some claim. What have they done? Nothing. What part of our defensive strategy do they play? I'm not sure. Maybe someone can share things I'm unaware of at the moment. What role are they playing in making the world a more peaceful, fair place? No clue. Are we getting oil from them? Nope. Why are we sending them billions of dollars a year while we're running a massive deficit? That's what I'd like to know. If someone can justify it, I'll respectfully listen and reconsider my position. Until then, I think we should stop supporting them.
Yes, great question, why are we subsidizing Israel + look at these other countries. I’ll ask why are these countries on the list?

  1. Afghanistan ($5.94 billion)
  2. Israel ($3.11 billion)
  3. Jordan ($1.67 billion)
  4. Egypt ($1.23 billion)
  5. Iraq ($1.18 billion)
  6. Ethiopia ($878 million)
  7. Syria ($835 million)
  8. Kenya ($824 million)
  9. Nigeria ($820 million)
  10. South Sudan ($789 million).
 

Gutwrench

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Israel has been overtly and covertly attacked by their regional neighbors since becoming a state. Israel is not blameless but to turn one’s back on history is unproductive. Israel has used great restraint far less than their neighbors would have if given the opportunity.
 

iMi

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Yes, great question, why are we subsidizing Israel + look at these other countries. I’ll ask why are these countries on the list?

  1. Afghanistan ($5.94 billion)
  2. Israel ($3.11 billion)
  3. Jordan ($1.67 billion)
  4. Egypt ($1.23 billion)
  5. Iraq ($1.18 billion)
  6. Ethiopia ($878 million)
  7. Syria ($835 million)
  8. Kenya ($824 million)
  9. Nigeria ($820 million)
  10. South Sudan ($789 million).

I can see why we would offer some funds to Iraq and Afghanistan. We did spend $2 trillion of Chinese dollars blowing that place up, so they may need some pocket change to rebuild. The rest, with the exception of some of the African countries where we fund live-saving operations, are a complete mystery to me.
 

iMi

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Israel has been overtly and covertly attacked by their regional neighbors since becoming a state. Israel is not blameless but to turn one’s back on history is unproductive. Israel has used great restraint far less than their neighbors would have if given the opportunity.

I agree we shouldn't turn our back on history but there are limits here. Let's start with the 1947 partition of Palestine by United Nations. It's the end-game of Zionism. If we sanction Jewish settlements in Jerusalem, then we should also allow Native Americans, and frankly anyone with any link to the land, to come and reclaim our own homes and backyards. That's the equivalent of what Jewish settlers are doing.

Should UK invade and "take back" France, since it was once ruled by the British crown?
Should Poland invade and "take back" Ukraine and parts of Slovania along with the easter part of Germany and most of Austria because it was their land for 100s of years?
Should Mexico "take back" California, parts of Texas, New Mexico, parts of Nevada and who knows what else since it was their native land?

See, that's the problem with religion. Jewish people have convinced themselves they are "the chosen people" and they act accordingly. It's not any different from the bigotry you see from the "righteous" Christians. They were so righteous and just in spreading the redeeming word of Jesus Christ that they murdered anyone who refused. Or the radical Islamists, who took one of the worlds most peaceful religions and turned into an ideological war machine.
 
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I can see why we would offer some funds to Iraq and Afghanistan. We did spend $2 trillion of Chinese dollars blowing that place up, so they may need some pocket change to rebuild. The rest, with the exception of some of the African countries where we fund live-saving operations, are a complete mystery to me.
Nigeria has oil too, so it's totally justified...lol
 

iMi

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Nigeria has oil too, so it's totally justified...lol

The fastest way for a "shit hole" country to become America's closest ally and key strategic partner in the region is to discover oil...
 

Gutwrench

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I agree we shouldn't turn our back on history but there are limits here. Let's start with the 1947 partition of Palestine by United Nations.

Palestine (and Arab countries) rejected the 1947 resolution. If Palestine had accepted it and not gone to war against Israel they would have enjoyed statehood for nearly 75 years.
 
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