Is it exaggeration to suggest the USA is at a crossroads?

The Future of Democracy in the US is…

  • Sunny skies, rainbows, cream and honey

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Rock roads

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • It’s 50-50

    Votes: 2 10.0%
  • I’m a pessimist, but I could be surprised.

    Votes: 6 30.0%
  • Anticipate some violence

    Votes: 10 50.0%
  • Civil War, We Are Screwed

    Votes: 2 10.0%

  • Total voters
    20
  • Poll closed .

Chew Toy McCoy

Pleb
Site Donor
Posts
7,556
Reaction score
11,803
I disagree with this. We cannot move forward until everybody in both parties condemns the violence on Jan 6. Once that’s done, perhaps “both sides” can admit some fault on other issues. But right now, you’ve got one side refusing to condemn this terrorist attack (and some of them actively supported it). Until the GOP denounces white supremacy and violent overthrow of the duly-elected government, they cannot and should not be apologized to by anybody.

Condemning that one day doesn't solve the major issues that got us here and continue to exist.

Many people voted for Trump because they felt both the Republicans and Democrats failed them. Good luck convincing them a better option is to go right back to the same system that failed them that neither party feels is broken or that they are responsible for any of it. It’s like the day after the Civil War ended the government went “There, we fixed it. Nothing left to address.”
 

SuperMatt

Site Master
Posts
7,862
Reaction score
15,004
Condemning that one day doesn't solve the major issues that got us here and continue to exist.

Many people voted for Trump because they felt both the Republicans and Democrats failed them. Good luck convincing them a better option is to go right back to the same system that failed them that neither party feels is broken or that they are responsible for any of it. It’s like the day after the Civil War ended the government went “There, we fixed it. Nothing left to address.”
Jan 6 wasn’t a one-day random occurrence. It was planned, and the constant anti-democracy rhetoric from Trump leading up to that day intentionally inflamed passions.

Failing to condemn violence by your voters is basically condoning it.

Democrats spoke out against people that used BLM rallies as an excuse for violence. Republicans need to do the same for the Jan 6 insurrection, which was far worse. But if Republicans want to make a false equivalency between the two, then they need to at least condemn Jan 6 violence like Biden and Harris did for looting and violence surrounding BLM protests.



Where are the Republicans condemning the Jan 6 violence? Once they do that, we can all talk about apologies and having a kumbaya moment.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

Pleb
Site Donor
Posts
7,556
Reaction score
11,803
Jan 6 wasn’t a one-day random occurrence. It was planned, and the constant anti-democracy rhetoric from Trump leading up to that day intentionally inflamed passions.

Failing to condemn violence by your voters is basically condoning it.

Democrats spoke out against people that used BLM rallies as an excuse for violence. Republicans need to do the same for the Jan 6 insurrection, which was far worse. But if Republicans want to make a false equivalency between the two, then they need to at least condemn Jan 6 violence like Biden and Harris did for looting and violence surrounding BLM protests.



Where are the Republicans condemning the Jan 6 violence? Once they do that, we can all talk about apologies and having a kumbaya moment.

I’d argue that ship has sailed, meaning they aren’t going to condemn it. So I don’t know what your solution is with that being the case. You put all your eggs in that basket.

I’m not even saying both parties need to provide a checklist with their apology, just acknowledge they lost touch and fucked up. In fact it’s probably better that they don’t provide a list which provide specific targets to reignite polarization. We’re not going to get anywhere with both parties claiming they still have the winning ticket and always have despite mountains of evidence to the contrary.
 

Huntn

Whatwerewe talk'n about?
Site Donor
Posts
5,286
Reaction score
5,229
Location
The Misty Mountains
I think we're seeing a shift back to normal in many ways, I know most of my friends who showed themselves to be racists in the era of Trump have crawled back under their rocks. I maintain that these people were always like this but it wasn't until Trump gave them a platform that we saw their true colors, and what we saw from some of them was flat out scary.
Except look what Republicans in charge of State Govt are doing, lieing, make up BS, gerrymandering, suppressing the vote, and wait till this November when they start tossing election results they don’t like. I predict it’s going to get uglier before if gets better.
 

SuperMatt

Site Master
Posts
7,862
Reaction score
15,004
I’d argue that ship has sailed, meaning they aren’t going to condemn it. So I don’t know what your solution is with that being the case. You put all your eggs in that basket.

I’m not even saying both parties need to provide a checklist with their apology, just acknowledge they lost touch and fucked up. In fact it’s probably better that they don’t provide a list which provide specific targets to reignite polarization. We’re not going to get anywhere with both parties claiming they still have the winning ticket and always have despite mountains of evidence to the contrary.
The best apology the Democrats could give right now is to pass voting rights laws that guarantee a voice to the voters. Then let the voters (not a bunch of GOP Secretaries of State) decide who will lead them in 2022 and beyond.

Apologizing to people that support a violent coup = nope.

Whatever happened to “we don’t negotiate with terrorists”...? And if you think the Republicans respect apologies, perhaps you don’t recall them lambasting Obama for his “apology tour” in 2009.

Sorry, I do not agree that “both sides” need to admit they are wrong. A violent insurrection is wrong. A sitting President trying to overturn the will of the voters after losing re-election is wrong. Until the GOP breaks with Trump, it would be disingenuous and political suicide for Dems to apologize to anybody from the GOP. They’d see it as weakness. And I guarantee you 100% Trump will never, ever apologize for anything. It’s not in his character. So, realistically, you are asking for just the Dems to apologize... and that’s truly absurd when you see the actions of each party over the last few years.
 

SuperMatt

Site Master
Posts
7,862
Reaction score
15,004
One other item. 71% of Republicans believe Trump was the actual winner in 2020. Are Dems supposed to apologize to them for “stealing” the election even though that isn’t what happened? You can’t apologize for things you didn’t do.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

Pleb
Site Donor
Posts
7,556
Reaction score
11,803
The best apology the Democrats could give right now is to pass voting rights laws that guarantee a voice to the voters. Then let the voters (not a bunch of GOP Secretaries of State) decide who will lead them in 2022 and beyond.

Apologizing to people that support a violent coup = nope.

Whatever happened to “we don’t negotiate with terrorists”...? And if you think the Republicans respect apologies, perhaps you don’t recall them lambasting Obama for his “apology tour” in 2009.

Sorry, I do not agree that “both sides” need to admit they are wrong. A violent insurrection is wrong. A sitting President trying to overturn the will of the voters after losing re-election is wrong. Until the GOP breaks with Trump, it would be disingenuous and political suicide for Dems to apologize to anybody from the GOP. They’d see it as weakness. And I guarantee you 100% Trump will never, ever apologize for anything. It’s not in his character. So, realistically, you are asking for just the Dems to apologize... and that’s truly absurd when you see the actions of each party over the last few years.

They need to apologize to everybody, not provide a list of specific people that includes “domestic terrorists”. You and I may have not have personally been hurt by Democrat polices or ignored by Democrats, but there are plenty who have. Trump wouldn’t have won or continue to have support if that wasn’t true.

Again, I’m not asking for a specific list of failings or specific groups of people who should be apologized to. As far as a segment of the right lambasting Obama for apologies, what he apologized for and to who matters. I highly doubt Republican voters having Republican politicians apologizing to them for years of policies and actions that failed to improve their situation or possibly even made it worse is going to get responded to with “You weak pussy!”. And even if that were true for some voters, I’m sure there are plenty of moderate and sane voters that would appreciate the establishment admitting they are culpable in the rise of Trump.

And I honestly don’t believe most people only want a leader who never admits they are wrong or doubles down on being wrong. I think that is media driven horse shit that only drives things getting worse.

Trump is the only one I would expect to not apologize and don't even want him to. My whole point is to irradicate him and Trumpism from politics.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

Pleb
Site Donor
Posts
7,556
Reaction score
11,803
One other item. 71% of Republicans believe Trump was the actual winner in 2020. Are Dems supposed to apologize to them for “stealing” the election even though that isn’t what happened? You can’t apologize for things you didn’t do.

The US government wasn't formed in 2016. Many decades got us here.
 

SuperMatt

Site Master
Posts
7,862
Reaction score
15,004
I’d like to hear what apologies you think should come from each side.

And I’m still confused on how you think “both sides” can apologize if you don’t expect or even want Trump to. The GOP is the Trump party right now, so if he won’t apologize, how do you expect both sides to do so?
 

SuperMatt

Site Master
Posts
7,862
Reaction score
15,004
This, I believe, is one the big forks on the way to this crossroad. The SC’s ruling on this will be telling which way to wind is blowing


Capito and McKinley make up two of the 47 senators and 135 representatives (plus one "Jeff Davis " who does not exist in Congress, though there is a Jeff Duncan) who signed the amicus brief. All of the signatories are Republicans. It's also worthwhile to note that all 14 states that began the lawsuit have Republican attorneys general.

If this doesn't illustrate that COVID vaccination has been made a partisan issue, we don't know what will.
OSHA has the authority to implement Emergency Temporary Standards when there's a matter of "grave danger." COVID-19 is a grave danger—it's killed almost 830, 000 people in the U.S. and 5.5 million worldwide—which means OSHA is well within its authority to enforce a vaccine /testing mandate. Maybe if vaccinations hadn't become a political pawn, there'd be no need for a national mandate.

Republicans should apologize to the American people for politicizing vaccines, masks, and lockdowns, and letting hundreds of thousands needlessly die.

I won’t hold my breath waiting for them to do so.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

Pleb
Site Donor
Posts
7,556
Reaction score
11,803
I’d like to hear what apologies you think should come from each side.

And I’m still confused on how you think “both sides” can apologize if you don’t expect or even want Trump to. The GOP is the Trump party right now, so if he won’t apologize, how do you expect both sides to do so?

To go back to my original post we are debating, I see this as an all or nothing situation, excluding Trump. People who want an unapologetically, er, unapologetic politician can stick with Trump. Clearly there are people who like that, but it's not the majority.

Also, I said a collective apology. I'm not saying they go to their individual bases and apologize to just them. I'm not a political speech writer, but in essence I'm saying "We acknowledge our actions over decades has been out of touch with many Americans and their struggles. We've put special interests and winning at all costs above their needs. Our parties have different priorities and potential solutions, but government works best through realistic compromise that benefits the majority of Americans. We're well aware of the data that shows who has been getting the majority of the benefits and it isn't the majority of Americans. We must work together to reduce the record inequality that currently exists and that we have had a hand in creating. This will take solutions from both sides of the aisle."
 

SuperMatt

Site Master
Posts
7,862
Reaction score
15,004
To go back to my original post we are debating, I see this as an all or nothing situation, excluding Trump. People who want an unapologetically, er, unapologetic politician can stick with Trump. Clearly there are people who like that, but it's not the majority.

Also, I said a collective apology. I'm not saying they go to their individual bases and apologize to just them. I'm not a political speech writer, but in essence I'm saying "We acknowledge our actions over decades has been out of touch with many Americans and their struggles. We've put special interests and winning at all costs above their needs. Our parties have different priorities and potential solutions, but government works best through realistic compromise that benefits the majority of Americans. We're well aware of the data that shows who has been getting the majority of the benefits and it isn't the majority of Americans. We must work together to reduce the record inequality that currently exists and that we have had a hand in creating. This will take solutions from both sides of the aisle."
That seems reasonable, but until the GOP kicks Trump to the curb, this literally cannot happen. As it stands, Trump still runs the party. Either Trumpism will win and we get autocracy, or voters realize how terrible it all is and the GOP loses badly for embracing Trump. The GOP will only dump Trump if they lose badly in upcoming elections.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

Pleb
Site Donor
Posts
7,556
Reaction score
11,803
That seems reasonable, but until the GOP kicks Trump to the curb, this literally cannot happen. As it stands, Trump still runs the party. Either Trumpism will win and we get autocracy, or voters realize how terrible it all is and the GOP loses badly for embracing Trump. The GOP will only dump Trump if they lose badly in upcoming elections.


I think what I am suggesting is a way for the GOP to start removing the Trump barnacles from their ship without doing it directly or antagonizing or further radicalizing the diehards. It's saying they understand why Trump, or an outsider, would seem attractive to some people compared to a system that failed them for so long.

I totally understand the sentiment that Democrats have nothing or a lot less to apologize for but I think in order to rescue people back from insanity they need to see a little humility from all sides. Nobody/party is right all the time, or wrong for that matter.

At a job interview I was once given one of those "there are no wrong answers." questions. Which do you think is a better quality, consistency or fairness? I said fairness because somebody being consistently wrong doesn't help anybody. Right now our political system is almost all consistency and rarely about fairness.
 

Joe

Elite Member
Posts
1,557
Reaction score
2,771
Location
Texas
Y'all expecting an apology from Republicans is the exact reason they win elections. They do not give one single fuck. They will lie, cheat, and steal their way to victory. Democrats are too fucking nice. I'm waiting for the day democrats grow some damn balls.
 

lizkat

Watching March roll out real winter
Posts
7,341
Reaction score
15,163
Location
Catskill Mountains
The reality is that this isn't something that happened overnight. Ensuring that the conservative voters have a new boogeyman after the fall of the USSR has been run like a deliberate and well-funded machine. This story caught my eye the other day. I highly recommend reading it.



These people and their views are not going to simply disappear. What we are seeing now is a younger, more radical and dumber breed of "politicians" (I am reluctant to use that word without feeling dirty) from the GOP. I realise that many US citizens just want to be left in peace to live their every day lives, but they may wake up one day and not be able to recognise their own country any more.

It does alarm me that in the event of an attempt to flip results of an election. people who "just want to be left in peace to live their every day lives" might simply shrug --as some did and continue to do after the violence of the 2021 insurrection.

They might be partisans in favor of overturning a lost election, or they might just keep figuring, even in the face of massive net evidence to contrary (through decades of legislative, agency and judiciary rulings and related subsequent data) that "It doesn't really matter who wins..."

From there it could be a short step for some people even to accept the GOP tacking on "... or how they won."

They could be seen as almost half right, because of what we have already allowed to happen, since it's K street calling the shots on a lot of stuff for a long time now, and we all know that both mega-corporations and industry sector lobbies do try to buy both sides of the aisle in Congress.

It does indeed tend to be "business as usual" after an election. It is really hard to turn the ship of state. It was meant to be difficult, so to give "stability" its due weight in maintaining the welfare of the nation, but it was not meant to be impossible.

Still, anyone who shrugs off a blatant attempt to use force or vote-suppressive mechanisms to alter what means "consent of the governed" in the USA is giving a wink and nod to traitors.

What is normal is to be disappointed over an election loss and then move on. That's what half a country's worth of voters did in the year 2000, for instance, when the Supreme Court said "ok stop counting already, Bush won, it's over." The margin there, ostensibly, was as small as 537 popular votes in the state of Florida, finally putting its electoral votes and so a national win in the Bush column. Yet Gore conceded and his disappointed supporters mourned the loss without assaulting the Capitol or our system of confirming presidential election results.

Before anyone starts asking for apologies "from both sides" over past governance, let's make it clear that there can be no excuses for attempts to overthrow a sitting government doing its constitutionally mandated task to certify an election that 50 states had already validated, some of them two or three times via recounts or audits.

There's a difference in asking for apologies and asking for acknowledgments. I want the Republican Party to acknowledge that whatever its beef may be with the way elections turn out, voter suppression and conniving to flip unwanted outcomes are not a legitimate wave of the future, and a violent attempt to overthrow Biden's 2020 election was not in in the national interest. I want the holdouts to quit denying that the 2020 election was free, fair and won by Biden-Harris. I want ordinary people to be able to get back to being annoyed when their preferred candidate loses, and then shrug and figure "next time".
 

Chew Toy McCoy

Pleb
Site Donor
Posts
7,556
Reaction score
11,803
Y'all expecting an apology from Republicans is the exact reason they win elections. They do not give one single fuck. They will lie, cheat, and steal their way to victory. Democrats are too fucking nice. I'm waiting for the day democrats grow some damn balls.

I'm just suggesting what I think could be a good first step towards returning to more peaceful and sane times. I don't expect it to actually happen.
 

lizkat

Watching March roll out real winter
Posts
7,341
Reaction score
15,163
Location
Catskill Mountains
Y'all expecting an apology from Republicans is the exact reason they win elections. They do not give one single fuck. They will lie, cheat, and steal their way to victory. Democrats are too fucking nice. I'm waiting for the day democrats grow some damn balls.

If you're talking about legislative compromise that keeps nudging the country to the right, I get it. It's infuriating.

But the Dems do have balls. They impeached an impeachable president twice when his own party was too craven to step up and do it. They said ok we might lose some elections but we're not letting a wannabe autocrat shred the Constitution in broad daylight even if it's probably true he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and skate. They said NO MAS for the history books. No more. No stamp of approval or wink and nod. It was crucial for the country's future to demonstrate formally that there were lines Trump crossed, that he went too far in terms of not only customs and norms but constitutional powers, even if the Senate in its assumed wisdom under Mitch McConnell did not see fit to remove the guy from the White House and prohibit him from running again for public office. Nancy Pelosi has more balls than McConnell has brain cells.

But on legislation... the Dems keep giving away the store. So yeah on that point you're right. They're too f'g nice. By now if the shoe had been on the other foot, the filibuster would have been drop kicked by the GOP even knowing there would be times they'd regret it.

For now the Dems resist taking that final step but it's not out of being nice, it's out of some respect for situations where maybe it SHOULD take 60 votes (or more) to pass certain legislation. At least the Dems have the brains to understand that. Too bad the Rs don't take a page from the Ds' playbook and compromise a little more often. In the end the GOP will have been the impetus for ditching the filibuster they think (possibly correctly) they can't remain viable without.
 
Top Bottom
1 2