Racism against Asian Americans

Chew Toy McCoy

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People that wouldn’t be caught dead buying Goya brand foods suddenly went out and bought them because of Trump. He is the focus of a cult of personality. When he calls it the China flu, and blames Asians for the virus, it has an effect. It is my belief that we are seeing that effect. I consider other Republicans to be complicit for refusing to call out such rhetoric (or repeat it in some cases). I also blame right-wing media sources for amplifying the rhetoric.

I agree but I'm talking about the specific hate crime action. I didn't hear about the elderly getting targeted when he was busy demonizing hispanics, or even in our long history of violence against black people.

Like I said about the potential reason for avoiding strip clubs, these people aren't just racists. They are complete cowards. Maybe the reason is Trump and rightwing media ramped up their racist hate but their bravery (poor choice of words, but couldn't think of anything else) didn't catch up to that same level. So they just target assumed weak or defenseless people.
 

P_X

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Dave Chappelle has a good bit about the hypocrisy between the response to the crack epidemic in the black community and the response to the opioid epidemic in the white community. For some reason he’s finding it hard to have sympathy for the latter. There’s also a good (horrific) documentary on crack on Netflix. When there’s drug addiction in the black community lets make them criminals. When there’s drug addiction in the white community lets try to help them get off drugs. During the crack epidemic something like 2/3rds of crack users were white. I wasn’t even aware there was even 1 white crack user. In a several year period when black crack users were being thrown in jail left and right not one white user was prosecuted.

As bad as things are now, before the internet some truly horrific grand scale shit was happening off the radar because nobody had a radar like we all do now.

I believe reparations should be made in the form of big investment into black communities, opportunities, education, and businesses, not just handing out money to every black person like the covid checks. But you really don’t have to go all the way back to slavery to find justification. That may be the biggest historic bookmark but it certainly wasn’t the last.
Proportions matter though, that's still about 3x overrepresentation of Blacks in the crack epidemic. This is important. Also I'll just drop this here:

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There's so much data to show that spending on secondary education is much much much better investment in crime prevention than buying military toys for the police. Also, this is why this country is doomed.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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Proportions matter though, that's still about 3x overrepresentation of Blacks in the crack epidemic. This is important. Also I'll just drop this here:

1616124747700.png


There's so much data to show that spending on secondary education is much much much better investment in crime prevention than buying military toys for the police. Also, this is why this country is doomed.


I know this is a tired trope, but it's all by design. One of my biggest problems with the right voter base, and especially the far right, is that we probably have more in common than we don't, but while they claim we shouldn't trust the government or the "fake" news media they absulutely refuse the solidarity that we've all been played. The left wants action to benefit everybody, including "the deplorables". The right wants action that only benefits the right. To me that is the defining difference.
 

Huntn

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I know this is a tired trope, but it's all by design. One of my biggest problems with the right voter base, and especially the far right, is that we probably have more in common than we don't, but while they claim we shouldn't trust the government or the "fake" news media they absulutely refuse the solidarity that we've all been played. The left wants action to benefit everybody, including "the deplorables". The right wants action that only benefits the right. To me that is the defining difference.
The Right thinks they can push though agendas without compromise, look at when they had control, whatever we can push through we will, whatever standard we can flush and get away with, we will. And while as a result the Democrats respond in kind as pushback to the more asinine Right extremes after they regained control, compromise is still a part of thei vocabulary, while on the Right, it‘s still lines in the sand and zero compromise rhetoric. As they currently exist the GOP is unsuitable to function in a democracy.
 

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I know this is a tired trope, but it's all by design. One of my biggest problems with the right voter base, and especially the far right, is that we probably have more in common than we don't, but while they claim we shouldn't trust the government or the "fake" news media they absulutely refuse the solidarity that we've all been played. The left wants action to benefit everybody, including "the deplorables". The right wants action that only benefits the right. To me that is the defining difference.
Lefties think we should help everybody with a special focus on empowering marginalized groups. The extreme of this is neglect of groups that mayappear non-marginalized (see rust belt Whites). Rightis think we should empower people who DESERVE it. The extreme of this is empowerment of those around whom the system is already built. If reasonably applied (i.e. shaving off the extremes), both ideologies could work in certain situations. However when the USA is a #1 country for the rich and a 3rd world county for the poor, at least to me, it's clear which idea system is more important to apply.

The Right thinks they can push though agendas without compromise, look at when they had control, whatever we can push through we will, whatever standard we can flush and get away with, we will. And while as a result the Democrats respond in kind as pushback to the more asinine Right extremes after they regained control, compromise is still a part of thei vocabulary, while on the Right, it‘s still lines in the sand and zero compromise rhetoric. As they currently exist the GOP is unsuitable to function in a democracy.
To be analytical about this what I see is the economy consistently runs better under Dem admins, and I suspect there are a few reaasons for this:
1) Dems are actually held accountable by their constituents more than Reps, meaning, there's more political consequence to poor actions
2) A fiscally conservative opposition may be beneficial to ground things. On the other hand zero compromise attitudes make a group stupider not smarter ajnd we all lose over this hyperpartisan bullshit. And as suggested in another thread, we know who benefits from this...
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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1) Dems are actually held accountable by their constituents more than Reps, meaning, there's more political consequence to poor actions

This is very true, but you wouldn’t know from the way the right tells it. There’s currently a viable effort to recall CA Democrat Mayor Gavin Newsom. For the longest time I thought the effort was entirely based on an incident of being a mask mandate hypocrite and people upset about ongoing business closures due to covid, but I recently discovered the other reasons like high taxes, an affordable housing and homeless crisis, and failing infrastructure that a bullet train isn’t going to solve. I wasn’t blind to those things, but the people behind the recall weren’t really siting those reasons until recently. Those are all legit issues but the way the right tells it is Californians love those things. I don’t know anybody who said “I guess Texans love long term power outages in below freezing temperatures”. There was also a successful recall of CA Democrat Governor Gray Davis in 2003, long before a Progressive element was a thing.

The current GOP selling tactic in it’s entirety seems to be you’ll have to tolerate my bullshit because a Democrat would be a lot worse. When we were having draught, power, and forest fire crisis we weren’t trying to somehow connect it to something going on in Texas. That kind of dot connecting boggles my mind, but “But California” seems to be a staple of GOP deflection.
 

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I read an article in The NY Times today about the argument “Racism or Sex Addiction” (first put forward by a stereotypical Georgia police chief) as the reason for these killings. It’s not one or the other - they are linked.

Some quotes that stuck out to me (also in case you don’t have a subscription and get ‘paywalled’)

That suggestion was met with incredulity by many Asian-American women, for whom racism and sexism have always been inextricably intertwined. For them, racism often takes the form of unwanted sexual come-ons, and sexual harassment is often overtly racist.
“People on here literally debating if this was a misogynistic attack against women or a racist attack against Asians,” Jenn Fang, the founder of a long-running Asian-American feminist blog, Reappropriate, wrote in a scathing Twitter thread. “What if — wait for it — it was both.”
Sung Yeon Choimorrow, the executive director of the National Asian Pacific American Women’s Forum, an advocacy group, said that when she first came to the United States to attend college in 2000, she was “stunned, dumbfounded, horrified” by the way she was frequently approached by male strangers who professed to love Korean women.

“It is the ‘Me so horny, I love you long time,’ in like weird accents, and ‘Oh, are you Korean? I love Korea,’” she said, adding that she began to wonder if American men were crazy. They would “go into this whole thing about how they served in the military in Korea and how they had this amazing Korean girlfriend that was just like me. And will I be their girlfriend?”

 

P_X

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I read an article in The NY Times today about the argument “Racism or Sex Addiction” (first put forward by a stereotypical Georgia police chief) as the reason for these killings. It’s not one or the other - they are linked.

Some quotes that stuck out to me (also in case you don’t have a subscription and get ‘paywalled’)





These women are spot on with those quotes.
 

SuperMatt

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These women are spot on with those quotes.
One other thing I forgot to quote was the idea that Asian women are portrayed as being weak and submissive in American pop culture. Therefore, cowardly abusers seem more likely to pick them as victims...
Hate crimes against Asian women are almost certainly undercounted, and Ms. Zia said one reason is that those with a sexual dimension tend to be classified as sex offenses, in effect erasing the racial aspect. Stereotypes of Asian women as submissive may embolden aggressors, she said. “We’re seen as vulnerable,” she said. “You know — the object that won’t fight back.”
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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I read an article in The NY Times today about the argument “Racism or Sex Addiction” (first put forward by a stereotypical Georgia police chief) as the reason for these killings. It’s not one or the other - they are linked.

Some quotes that stuck out to me (also in case you don’t have a subscription and get ‘paywalled’)






That last quoted part is interesting. Some years back I dated a Japanese Hawaiian girl for about 6 months. We would have debates about gender stereotypes or issues but race or cultural differences never came up. At the risk of sounding shallow she definitely looked Asian. Just saying it wasn’t a Native American Elizabeth Warren situation where race differences wouldn’t be obvious. Nobody is going to attack Warren because they hate Native Americans. I don’t have an “Asian fetish” but I’m well aware that it exists. I always thought of it as a preference thing and didn’t consider how it could include hurtful or insensitive behavior.
 

SuperMatt

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The thing is, SOME people don’t want to call something a hate crime or racially motivated unless they’ve got the killer, on tape, yelling “I shot these people because I do not like (insert slur here) and they all should die!” That is because they don’t want to own up to their own biases, or our biases as a nation and how those biases can lead to outcomes such as this shooting.

That being said, if a killer said they were targeting white people, those same people would suddenly lose their allergy to calling things hate crimes.
 

P_X

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One other thing I forgot to quote was the idea that Asian women are portrayed as being weak and submissive in American pop culture. Therefore, cowardly abusers seem more likely to pick them as victims...
She's probably also right about this but from a legal perspective it's sounds like something difficult to prove. People tend to dehumanize those easier they perceive as out-of-group, and this applies to Asian women as well. They are also considered generally very attractive by American culture*. There's also a "modesty trap" my 1st gen East Asian friends tell me about. American culture has a consistent difficulty dealing with modest/humble people (based on my experience living in the east and west coast and midwest).



*(disclaimer #1 data based on OK cupid, disclaimer #2 Americans tend to overemphasize certain physical characteristics to concoct this absolutist concept of attractiveness which is essentially the reflection of college students' desires, like a great deal of psychology research is).
This also to some extent extends to the fetish @Chew Toy McCoy mentions.
 
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Chew Toy McCoy

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The thing is, SOME people don’t want to call something a hate crime or racially motivated unless they’ve got the killer, on tape, yelling “I shot these people because I do not like (insert slur here) and they all should die!” That is because they don’t want to own up to their own biases, or our biases as a nation and how those biases can lead to outcomes such as this shooting.

That being said, if a killer said they were targeting white people, those same people would suddenly lose their allergy to calling things hate crimes.

But the pendulum swings both ways. The other side wants to label any violent crime that involves different races a hate crime, especially if the perpetrator is white. That’s their starting point and then they want definitive proof that it wasn’t.

Interestingly the news I’ve been reading seems to go out of their way to not mention the race of the perpetrators and a lot of times there isn’t a picture. So you really don’t know. Some probably feel that doesn’t matter, but I think there could be some helpful information in there. For example during the Compton riots you had the Korean community being attacked because there was a history of racism from local Korean business owners. So could that lead to an “and here’s another reason” predisposition to attacks on Asians from the black community?
 

SuperMatt

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But the pendulum swings both ways. The other side wants to label any violent crime that involves different races a hate crime, especially if the perpetrator is white. That’s their starting point and then they want definitive proof that it wasn’t.
Perhaps you could provide some examples of this? It is my recollection that the “hate crime” thing usually doesn’t come into the conversation all that often unless it’s multiple people of the same ethnic or religious group, attacked by somebody of another ethnic/religious group. It could be that I just usually don’t notice it, or that it’s people on the liberal side of things who are TV or radio personalities that I don’t listen to.

My experience from the other point of view has been that when the Dylan Roof killing occurred, I saw SOME Republicans saying it wasn’t a hate crime because, well, the guy was just a mental case. So it is unsurprising to me that those same folks would be whining that “liberals call everything a hate crime.” Maybe they do, but I don’t recall it.
 

P_X

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Perhaps you could provide some examples of this? It is my recollection that the “hate crime” thing usually doesn’t come into the conversation all that often unless it’s multiple people of the same ethnic or religious group, attacked by somebody of another ethnic/religious group. It could be that I just usually don’t notice it, or that it’s people on the liberal side of things who are TV or radio personalities that I don’t listen to.

My experience from the other point of view has been that when the Dylan Roof killing occurred, I saw SOME Republicans saying it wasn’t a hate crime because, well, the guy was just a mental case. So it is unsurprising to me that those same folks would be whining that “liberals call everything a hate crime.” Maybe they do, but I don’t recall it.
The whole thing is really absurd. This is clearly and admittedly a crime against adult women of all ages. Law based on precedent means we should be very careful about labeling things certain ways, and I think that's @Chew Toy McCoy's point. The counterpoint is, if your perpetrator shoots 9 people, 7 of which women, 6 of east asian descent, and people start defending their heinous actions as "coincidentally targeting" a very specific group, that would open a loophole for terrorists to use this defense to evade hate crime charges. And I can foresee such trend emerging if this defense flies, regardless of the underlying evidence ends up fully corroborating this notion or not.

On our end, consistency is important. I feel if a Muslim commits a crime like this, it is terrorism until proven otherwise in the public eye; except when it's a white person then it is asystematic unless proven otherwise...
 

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The whole thing is really absurd. This is clearly and admittedly a crime against adult women of all ages. Law based on precedent means we should be very careful about labeling things certain ways, and I think that's @Chew Toy McCoy's point. The counterpoint is, if your perpetrator shoots 9 people, 7 of which women, 6 of east asian descent, and people start defending their heinous actions as "coincidentally targeting" a very specific group, that would open a loophole for terrorists to use this defense to evade hate crime charges. And I can foresee such trend emerging if this defense flies, regardless of the underlying evidence ends up fully corroborating this notion or not.

On our end, consistency is important. I feel if a Muslim commits a crime like this, it is terrorism until proven otherwise in the public eye; except when it's a white person then it is asystematic unless proven otherwise...
Asians make up only 3.9% of the population in Georgia. This is clearly not a random killing.
 

P_X

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Asians make up only 3.9% of the population in Georgia. This is clearly not a random killing.
Without a doubt it was a targeted murder spree and it should exactly be treated as such.

My point is that If this is not classified as a hate crime (and here I'm not arguing whether it is or not one in reality), there will be people who will try to use this defense to target groups of people and claim the motive to be the location where certain activities take place. Like a basketball court "incidentally" frequented by black kids, or a restaurant that happens to make ethnic food, etc.

One fucked up thing about Georgia is the easier access to firearms than to voting. I actually took the time to look up all the countries with voter registration requirements AND unlicensed gun purchases...Besides the USA, only one out of 23 such countries allow licenseless gun purchase (Switzerland).

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Chew Toy McCoy

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Perhaps you could provide some examples of this? It is my recollection that the “hate crime” thing usually doesn’t come into the conversation all that often unless it’s multiple people of the same ethnic or religious group, attacked by somebody of another ethnic/religious group. It could be that I just usually don’t notice it, or that it’s people on the liberal side of things who are TV or radio personalities that I don’t listen to.

My experience from the other point of view has been that when the Dylan Roof killing occurred, I saw SOME Republicans saying it wasn’t a hate crime because, well, the guy was just a mental case. So it is unsurprising to me that those same folks would be whining that “liberals call everything a hate crime.” Maybe they do, but I don’t recall it.
First let me say I'm not saying this incident definitively wasn't a crime against Asians, but clearly there are a lot of other potential issues involved here and I'm not going to repeat myself from a previous post, but the entire focus on the internet and the media is on the Asian aspect. It's like if you can't pick a side on that then there's no more discussion to be had.

To put it another way, let's say all other possible related issues are true. Do you think if he didn't have mental issues, wasn't a sex addicted, and didn't have that conflict with his highly religious beliefs he would have done it anyway?
 

SuperMatt

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First let me say I'm not saying this incident definitively wasn't a crime against Asians, but clearly there are a lot of other potential issues involved here and I'm not going to repeat myself from a previous post, but the entire focus on the internet and the media is on the Asian aspect. It's like if you can't pick a side on that then there's no more discussion to be had.

To put it another way, let's say all other possible related issues are true. Do you think if he didn't have mental issues, wasn't a sex addicted, and didn't have that conflict with his highly religious beliefs he would have done it anyway?
There have been thousands of attacks on Asian people since Trump’s anti-Asian remarks. It’s a serious problem. This attack is one of many, and just like the murder of George Floyd was an infamous incident that brought attention to the problem of police brutality, this attack has brought attention to the racist attacks on Asian people.

I’ve noticed that the folks most vocal about this not being racism are the same folks who don’t want mass shootings to be about guns, or want to deny systemic racism exists… etc. Just like every time there is a mass shooting by a white person, they are ALWAYS just a lone wolf with mental issues. Certainly the racist rhetoric a mentally unstable person hears vomiting forth from the gaping maws of conservative radio hate-mongers has NOTHING to do with why these people commit such acts.

To answer your question, most non-crazy people don’t ever commit murders. But it is the non-crazy people from this guy’s community and church who instilled the ideas in him that led to his choice of asian women, who HE considered as a symbol of his evil sexual desires… natural desires that the church taught him are evil. And no doubt such a conservative church is chock-full of people parroting Trump’s rhetoric every chance they get.

Yes, he will serve the time for his crime, but I believe the blatant racism of Trump being fully embraced and accepted by the white evangelical church in America is the fuel for these types of fires. There are a thousand “normal” people who say something racist to an Asian person, or make the slanted eyes gesture, or just do something dick-ish to a person just because they’re Asian… but then you get the unhinged person surrounded by those types who loses his mind and does something far worse based on that same racism.
 
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