Russia-Ukraine

yaxomoxay

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Just opening a thread since I’ve not seen anything related to the current foreign policy issue at hand.

My quick points:
  • I am still observing the situation, not much of an opinion formed yet
  • I think that Putin will proceed with the invasion
  • The US position seems to lean towards “economic sanctions”, and no mention of possible military intervention. This would be a green light to an invasion. Now, I also do realize that what is said in public doesn’t necessarily reflect what is said in private. Corollary: if Biden hints to Putin that the US won’t engage militarily, the invasion is sure.
  • Noticing that the European Union is quieter than it should be at this point. Concerning.
  • Noticing that China is very quiet.
 
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NT1440

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Why are we supporting literal nazis like the Azov battalion? This is all the knock effects of the 2014 coup we performed on Russia’s border (then framed their *response* as aggression).

I’m tired of seeing the same bullshit from the US blatantly lying to our citizens about international aggression we take and framing the response to it as the original aggression.
 

SuperMatt

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Why are we supporting literal nazis like the Azov battalion? This is all the knock effects of the 2014 coup we performed on Russia’s border (then framed their *response* as aggression).

I’m tired of seeing the same bullshit from the US blatantly lying to our citizens about international aggression we take and framing the response to it as the original aggression.
That is quite an interesting spin of a protest movement and unanimous parliamentary vote to remove Yanukovych. He was basically a puppet of Putin’s regime, and the people rebelled. Of course America and the EU would side with such a rebellion - Europe and America do NOT want Russia to re-form the Soviet Union again.

There are very questionable people on both sides of the conflict, but handing Russia de facto control of Ukraine is not in the interests of most of the international community.
 

Herdfan

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  • The US position seems to lean towards “economic sanctions”, and no mention of possible military intervention. This would be a green light to an invasion. Now, I also do realize that what is said in public doesn’t necessarily reflect what is said in private. Corollary: if Biden hints to Putin that the US won’t engage militarily, the invasion is sure.

What choices do we have? We sure don't want to engage in actual war with Russia. But it does seem the other option, economic sanctions, won't stop him.

So basically a mess.
 

yaxomoxay

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What choices do we have? We sure don't want to engage in actual war with Russia. But it does seem the other option, economic sanctions, won't stop him.

So basically a mess.
Definitely a mess. I am increasingly worried about this. Actual war with Russia is probably out of question, but the lack of mention of military options (“defensive aid” or some bs of the kind) is troubling and might be seen as a green light from the US. I want to hope that today’s meeting is not about post-invasion plans between the two countries.
 

Scepticalscribe

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Mea culpa.

I have been following this with - yes - increasing concern and should have started a thread.

Thanks, @yaxomoxay, for attending to this, and doing the needful; much appreciated.

Actually, the "vibe" I am getting from reading what I can lay hands on, is horribly and ominously reminiscent of August 2008, when that conflict with Georgia took almost everyone by surprise.
 

yaxomoxay

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Mea culpa.

I have been following this with - yes - increasing concern and should have started a thread.

Thanks, @yaxomoxay, for attending to this, and doing the needful; much appreciated.

Actually, the "vibe" I am getting from reading what I can lay hands on, is horribly and ominously reminiscent of August 2008, when that conflict with Georgia took almost everyone by surprise.
You know that region much better than I do; I guess it’s ominous that we share the same feeling about what might happen.

Good point about Georgia, however Ukraine has been on the Russian radar for quite a while. A successful Russian invasion of Ukraine would be a massive, historic failure of Europe and the U.S..

Just thinking out loud:
  1. if the west can’t defend Ukraine in any way, say goodbye to Taiwan.
  2. I wonder if Putin studied the timing to match a very contentious US mid-term election in which the branches might be split again.
 

Scepticalscribe

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As with Georgia, or Moldova, or the constantly unsettling situation in Armenia and Azerbaijan, if there is an invasion of Ukraine, I do not expect it to lead to an occupation of all of the country.

This is because west Ukraine would never accept any sort of Russian rule, - they see themselves as "western", and look to - and identify with - a different history, language, religion and political culture than the eastern part of the country, just as some of the eastern regions look to (and identify with) Russia culturally, theologically, linguistically, socially, politically and historically.

Yes, we can (and should) blame Stalin for this, given how he shifted the borders of what was then Ukraine several hundreds of miles (kms) further west in 1945, creating a fundamentally divided country, one with an enormous - and unbridgeable - cultural and political cleavage running right through the middle of it, - though this division and cultural conflict didn't really matter until the collapse of the USSR, - while, Khrushchev's decision to cede Crimea to Ukraine, (albeit while Ukraine was still within the USSR), also served to give a hostage to fortune (a hostage which was duly claimed by fortune in the form of a resurgent Russia).

However, - and this is insufficiently appreciated in the west - it is my opinion (and I have held this view for over a decade) that for cultural-socio-historical-theological reasons, - and it doesn't matter that they may not be logical, or rational, or that most people are secular, issues of identity still move and motivate them - I believe that Russia will go to the wire on Ukraine in a way that it will never do for any place else in the post Soviet space. This - Ukraine - matters viscerally to Russia in a way that nowhere else does.

Thus, this is not just about politics, or pure power (although, naturally, it also includes both of these); nor is it solely about restoring a core and key Slavic component of the old Soviet "Near Abroad" to Russian (neo-imperial) control.

Rather, above all, it is about laying permanent claim to what - and where - is viewed as the locus of Russian identity, to the cradle of Russian culture and civilisation.

To Russians, the cradle of their culture and civilisation comes from Ukraine (the old Kievan Rus), their sense of national identity (and that of the Orthodox Church) derive their legitimacy from this link with Kievan Rus, and thus, we cannot assume that rational considerations will be the only elements in play, here, if, and when, an invasion does take place.

For what it is worth, I cannot ever - though "ever" is a long time - see a single, unitary Ukraine emerging from this, though many in the 'west' will find this difficult to accept, wedded as they are to concepts of current boundaries and borders.

Rather, I would expect to see the emergence of two Ukraines, an eastern version and something that might be called west Ukraine; I would imagine that the existence of a "west" Ukraine will be contingent on (a reluctant) recognition of the Russian right to (extensive) influence - a resurrection of the old 19th century idea of respective "spheres of influence" and "great power" (not super power) politics - on and in and over - the 'eastern' part of Ukraine.

Whether it will be possible to construct or design some form of political architecture that will accommodate both entities (countries) under one (even nebulous) political umbrella (a confederation? a federal solution?) remains to be seen, but is something that I, personally, would doubt could come into being, not given the deep (and deepening) divisions that currently exist between both Ukraines and their respective backers.
 
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D

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Biden and the U.S. government seem to think there's a strong possibility:


How likely do you think it is that Russia sends its forces into eastern Ukraine? Will their goal be to annex only the Donetsk region or perhaps the entire nation? How will the U.S. and the West respond? They managed to get Crimea in 2014 without any military response from the West. How should we respond, if indeed this happens?
 

Eric

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Biden and the U.S. government seem to think there's a strong possibility:


How likely do you think it is that Russia sends its forces into eastern Ukraine? Will their goal be to annex only the Donetsk region or perhaps the entire nation? How will the U.S. and the West respond? They managed to get Crimea in 2014 without any military response from the West. How should we respond, if indeed this happens?
Looks like they're going in but to what degree nobody knows. Biden was back pedaling a bit from his strong stance today, indicating our response will be based on how bad the invasion is so in other words we're going to slap their wrists while they take over the region.

As far as how should we respond I'm split, I never like to see the slaughter of innocent people and that will likely happen here. I also think we don't need to be sticking our nose into every war out there and need to stop playing world police. In the end we have no real interests there and humans aren't as important as oil or we would've had troops en masse there months ago.
 
D

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In the end we have no real interests there and humans aren't as important as oil or we would've had troops en masse there months ago.

Truth. No nation enters another nation's conflict for purely humanitarian reasons and if an area is of no strategic value, the chances of us intervening are slim to nil (not that I necessarily think we should be intervening, though I do think it's a good idea to prevent genocide if at all possible).
 

SuperMatt

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Looks like they're going in but to what degree nobody knows. Biden was back pedaling a bit from his strong stance today, indicating our response will be based on how bad the invasion is so in other words we're going to slap their wrists while they take over the region.

As far as how should we respond I'm split, I never like to see the slaughter of innocent people and that will likely happen here. I also think we don't need to be sticking our nose into every war out there and need to stop playing world police. In the end we have no real interests there and humans aren't as important as oil or we would've had troops en masse there months ago.
We have no real interest in Ukraine? We are a part of NATO, and the European members of NATO have huge concerns about Russia annexing Ukraine.

We know how the policy of appeasement went in the 1930s. Just letting Russia take over Ukraine means Poland and other eastern bloc nations could be next. Putin wants to re-create the Soviet Union. He is testing the resolve of NATO at this moment to see how far he can push.
 

Huntn

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Looks like they're going in but to what degree nobody knows. Biden was back pedaling a bit from his strong stance today, indicating our response will be based on how bad the invasion is so in other words we're going to slap their wrists while they take over the region.

As far as how should we respond I'm split, I never like to see the slaughter of innocent people and that will likely happen here. I also think we don't need to be sticking our nose into every war out there and need to stop playing world police. In the end we have no real interests there and humans aren't as important as oil or we would've had troops en masse there months ago.
NATO’s backyard, the question becomes how many countries does Putin get to subvert in his quest to rebuild the USSR?
 

Eric

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We have no real interest in Ukraine? We are a part of NATO, and the European members of NATO have huge concerns about Russia annexing Ukraine.

We know how the policy of appeasement went in the 1930s. Just letting Russia take over Ukraine means Poland and other eastern bloc nations could be next. Putin wants to re-create the Soviet Union. He is testing the resolve of NATO at this moment to see how far he can push.
Great talking points for the assembly floor but do they have any unobtainium? Because without that America really couldn't give a shit and that's what you'll see with minor hand slapping and strong words of condemnation by the president as Russia takes them over.
 

Huntn

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Great talking points for the assembly floor but do they have any unobtainium? Because without that America really couldn't give a shit and that's what you'll see with minor hand slapping and strong words of condemnation by the president as Russia takes them over.
I‘m not disagreeing with you outright, but this type of action by Russia is threatening to Europe. But since this is in NATO’s backyard and we are part of NATO, I’d let our European neighbors take the lead on this. And maybe we have? All I’ve heard of is stepped up sanctions.
 

Eric

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I‘m not disagreeing with you outright, but this type of action by Russia is threatening to Europe. But since this is in NATO’s backyard and we are part of NATO, I’d let our European neighbors take the lead on this. And maybe we have? All I’ve heard of is stepped up sanctions.
IMO this is the type of engagement we should be active in, especially when it comes to the humanitarian side of it and it's sad that we don't. Unfortunately, America is driven by Capitalism and power and that means protecting the assets that keep our economy moving in a way we're most comfortable with by bombing little brown countries who control our interests. Preserving the peace just to keep the world a sovereign place is a nice thought but nothing we'll go to war over.
 

Huntn

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IMO this is the type of engagement we should be active in, especially when it comes to the humanitarian side of it and it's sad that we don't. Unfortunately, America is driven by Capitalism and power and that means protecting the assets that keep our economy moving in a way we're most comfortable with by bombing little brown countries who control our interests. Preserving the peace just to keep the world a sovereign place is a nice thought but nothing we'll go to war over.
My impression is that Biden is engaged with both NATO and Russia, yes?
 

SuperMatt

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I‘m not disagreeing with you outright, but this type of action by Russia is threatening to Europe. But since this is in NATO’s backyard and we are part of NATO, I’d let our European neighbors take the lead on this. And maybe we have? All I’ve heard of is stepped up sanctions.
Europe is reluctant to get involved too. It feels like NATO leaders completely forgot the lessons of WWII. Sure, let Putin have Ukraine… oh he wants Romania and Poland too? Well, we don’t want a war, so let’s appease him.

Did Russia pay a price for annexing Crimea? Not really. So they will keep pushing. They know America (temporarily anyway) lost its appetite for war after Afghanistan and Iraq. They are taking full advantage of the situation, IMO.
 
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