So now we’re starving Afghans to death

[Scepticalscribe]

To my mind, in this instance, any such aid rendered should be strictly conditional, and operated under exceptionally rigorous oversight; perhaps - channelled through an agency run by, staffed by, and controlled (solely) by, Afghan women.

However, equally striking is the fact that - in marked contrast to the Taliban regime of the late 1990s, which was recognised by Pakistan, KSA (Saudi-Arabia) and UAE - not one country in the world has yet recognised the current regime in Kabul, not even Pakistan, which has played a consistently malevolent role in Afghan affairs, let alone any of the other countries with Islamic governance and culture.

And China - which had been looking for investment opportunities (assuming security concerns could be met) - is also markedly silent.

Besides: One of the five core tenets (or pillars) of Islam is charity (zakat); the silence on this topic - the conditions under which many Afghans currently live - from other Islamic regimes (perhaps it is too generous a stretch of language to dignify some of these administrations with the use of the noun "government"), countries and cultures is telling.

Nevertheless, leading an insurrection does not necessarily qualify one for rule, and the Taliban - even now - show much appetite for revenge, but little aptitude for (and less interest in) governance.

And, the Taliban are not without resources. For years, they have demanded access to profits - or income - from the poppy season, and have lived parasitically off the resources (sometimes meagre, sometimes not) of the regions unfortunate enough to have fallen into their hands.

 

[lizkat]

But in both those examples sanctions weren't instantly applied after 20 years of continuous war and suffering with an invading foreign power. You really think the people have the strength and interest to rise up after that? Do you think a starving population does?

I'm sorry, but I don't see this as anything other than disgraceful.

It is disgraceful. Not sure what we can do short of sanctions or going back in there with a shock and awe military supervision of humanitarian aid distribution. And mind you it would be ordinary American citizens in shock and awe if such an approach were taken (regardless of whether via a UN or other coalition or just the USA). The one thing Biden still has going for him that registers bipartisan sentiment is that we did in fact take our troops out of Afghanistan. No one likes how it went down. Everyone's an armchair quarterback. But, we're not trying to win hearts and minds in the Afghan provinces with a gun any more, and getting shot up by their military that we trained in the process...

So what next? Well the Taliban running Afghanistan now have been given choices to join the larger community of nations by altering some of their most oppressive behaviors, and have not been taking those paths. Do they want to run a rogue state operation? They're acting like it.

They did win a war in which the Afghans over which they now rule did not themselves well enough support the previous government that was enabled by their votes but then propped up by the Americans. Even the Afghan military that was stood up did not side with that government in the end, and not least because it was seen as way more corrupt than even the familiar and also corrupt manner of local Afghan governance. But the Taliban is not delivering on promises it made to the people, one tribe and province at a time.

The Pakistanis, Chinese and Russians (again) are still interested in filling the vacuum after the US departure from Afghanistan, but not if the Taliban are going to maintain oppressive governance that is bound to lead again to outbreaks of civil war, when what those other powers hope for is commerce, not an eternal battlefield.

It's winter now and people are starving in Afghanistan. Come spring there will be civil war again because the Afghans who survived are not going back to the 1990s along with a Taliban that does not seem to have changed that much after all.

 

[NT1440]

The discussion about the Taliban is a farce. This isn’t about money to the Taliban, we’ve locked the entire Afghan population out of their own bank accounts.

If Russia had the ability to keep you from taking your money out of the ATM, which is exactly what we’ve done, what relevance does it have that Republicans or Democrats are in charge of the country itself? None. We’re starving the population deliberately and letting the entire *irrelevant* discussion be centered around governance.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

It is disgraceful. Not sure what we can do short of sanctions or going back in there with a shock and awe military supervision of humanitarian aid distribution. And mind you it would be ordinary American citizens in shock and awe if such an approach were taken (regardless of whether via a UN or other coalition or just the USA). The one thing Biden still has going for him that registers bipartisan sentiment is that we did in fact take our troops out of Afghanistan. No one likes how it went down. Everyone's an armchair quarterback. But, we're not trying to win hearts and minds in the Afghan provinces with a gun any more, and getting shot up by their military that we trained in the process...

So what next? Well the Taliban running Afghanistan now have been given choices to join the larger community of nations by altering some of their most oppressive behaviors, and have not been taking those paths. Do they want to run a rogue state operation? They're acting like it.

They did win a war in which the Afghans over which they now rule did not themselves well enough support the previous government that was enabled by their votes but then propped up by the Americans. Even the Afghan military that was stood up did not side with that government in the end, and not least because it was seen as way more corrupt than even the familiar and also corrupt manner of local Afghan governance. But the Taliban is not delivering on promises it made to the people, one tribe and province at a time.

The Pakistanis, Chinese and Russians (again) are still interested in filling the vacuum after the US departure from Afghanistan, but not if the Taliban are going to maintain oppressive governance that is bound to lead again to outbreaks of civil war, when what those other powers hope for is commerce, not an eternal battlefield.

It's winter now and people are starving in Afghanistan. Come spring there will be civil war again because the Afghans who survived are not going back to the 1990s along with a Taliban that does not seem to have changed that much after all.

IMO we should leave them alone and that includes not fucking with them through sanctions. We could probably find other regimes that are just as bad or worse than the Taliban that the US isn’t doing a damn thing about. There’s a good chance we even support them as long as they put the US dollar above all else.

My only question is how much of that money we are freezing was actually given to them by the US government. I’m willing to bet it’s a good percentage.

 

[lizkat]

The discussion about the Taliban is a farce. This isn’t about money to the Taliban, we’ve locked the entire Afghan population out of their own bank accounts.

If Russia had the ability to keep you from taking your money out of the ATM, which is exactly what we’ve done, what relevance does it have that Republicans or Democrats are in charge of the country itself? None. We’re starving the population deliberately and letting the entire *irrelevant* discussion be centered around governance.

Letting up on the financial control only hands the banking system itself to the Taliban. There's no reason to think the Taliban respects individual ownership of accounts if that proves inconvenient in any way including ability to mount political opposition. The USA currently has leverage the Afghan people do not have in terms of potentially causing the Taliban rulers to alter how they are governing. Afghans are back to sticks and stones on their own... or trying to cut deals with Pakistanis in the territories for smuggled weapons.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

The discussion about the Taliban is a farce. This isn’t about money to the Taliban, we’ve locked the entire Afghan population out of their own bank accounts.

If Russia had the ability to keep you from taking your money out of the ATM, which is exactly what we’ve done, what relevance does it have that Republicans or Democrats are in charge of the country itself? None. We’re starving the population deliberately and letting the entire *irrelevant* discussion be centered around governance.

We did the exact same thing with Venezuela.

 

[lizkat]

IMO we should leave them alone and that includes not fucking with them through sanctions. We could probably find other regimes that are just as bad or worse than the Taliban that the US isn’t doing a damn thing about. There’s a good chance we even support them as long as they put the US dollar above all else.

My only question is how much of that money we are freezing was actually given to them by the US government. I’m willing to bet it’s a good percentage.

We did the exact same thing with Venezuela.

And our track record in Central America has never been above reproach either, even if some of the more recent cooperative programs on developing jobs there are worth continuing. I agree with the idea of helping develop private investment and jobs there instead of emigration being the only perceived option. But there's not enough attention paid even now to exploitation of human rights and ongoing skew of wealth and income in those states just like it still happens here.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

And our track record in Central America has never been above reproach either, even if some of the more recent cooperative programs on developing jobs there are worth continuing. I agree with the idea of helping develop private investment and jobs there instead of emigration being the only perceived option. But there's not enough attention paid even now to exploitation of human rights and ongoing skew of wealth and income in those states just like it still happens here.

Is there any developing county where the US tried to “help” and the main lasting result wasn’t grand scale corruption? As far as installing American style Democracy I think we can call mission accomplished on that one. It’s our goof for thinking they were talking about fair representative voting. We don’t even have that here. So it’s kind of silly to think that’s what they were talking about.

 

[NT1440]

Letting up on the financial control only hands the banking system itself to the Taliban. There's no reason to think the Taliban respects individual ownership of accounts if that proves inconvenient in any way including ability to mount political opposition. The USA currently has leverage the Afghan people do not have in terms of potentially causing the Taliban rulers to alter how they are governing. Afghans are back to sticks and stones on their own... or trying to cut deals with Pakistanis in the territories for smuggled weapons.

This is the literal definition of Regime Change.

 

[lizkat]

Is there any developing county where the US tried to “help” and the main lasting result wasn’t grand scale corruption? As far as installing American style Democracy I think we can call mission accomplished on that one. It’s our goof for thinking they were talking about fair representative voting. We don’t even have that here. So it’s kind of silly to think that’s what they were talking about.

Well in the case of Afghanistan, there was the world's clearest case of mission creep...

I mean we would have done better by innocent Afghans (and then later most certainly also including the Iraqi people) if we had just lobbed a couple cruise missiles into the hills where bin Laden was hiding out, and called it sufficient reprisal for the terrorist attacks on 9/11/2001. But no, we had to go on and on, until we lost more people of our own and tens of thousands more Afghan lives than Americans had lost when the September 11th attacks occurred. And of course there proved also to be elements of the US government at the time that were fixated on regime change in Iraq, and who wasted no time pitching that as a related and worthy endeavor, neither of which our invasion and subsequent occupation of that country proved to be. So then the horrors of the sectarian civil war there. And then there was Syria...

So much for any so-called "lessons learned" in Vietnam... we now live with a generation scarred by service in Afghanistan or Iraq or Syria, and memories of those who died, or were maimed and have came home to a country that while not as venomous towards returning vets as during the Vietnam era, still does not treat veterans and their families properly with respect to job development efforts and living quarters.

And what did we leave behind? Not photo ops of civilians strewing roses in the path of the American military as they left. Out of necessity we made allies of convenience, because of American unfamiliarity with terrain, languages and culture. But how we treated those helpers (and militia in some cases) when we just wanted to get out, well that has translated into sagas of betrayal with reverberations into the need for future such assistance.

 

[NT1440]

We did the exact same thing with Venezuela.

Exactly. Which is criminal. Just not when the Empire does it.

 

[lizkat]

This is the literal definition of Regime Change.

Nah, we did regime change when we didn't settle for lobbing some missiles into bin Laden's caves... this here is something different. It's trying to exert leverage to help retain 20 years' worth of social change that has in fact occurred in Afghanistan while our forces were there.

 

[NT1440]

Nah, we did regime change when we didn't settle for lobbing some missiles into bin Laden's caves... this here is something different. It's trying to exert everage to help retain 20 years' worth of social change that has in fact occurred in Afghanistan while our forces were there.

“Make the economy scream” -Same tactic applied to Chile

Different pretense, same international war crime of aggression. It’s just been standard operating procedure for the US since the Chicago Boys.

Using the same tactics with a different pretext doesn’t negate it being the exact same thing we’ve done dozens of times all over the world.

This war didn’t end.

 

[lizkat]

“Make the economy scream” -Same tactic applied to Chile

Different pretense, same international war crime of aggression. It’s just been standard operating procedure for the US since the Chicago Boys.

Using the same tactics with a different pretext doesn’t negate it being the exact same thing we’ve done dozens of times all over the world.

This war didn’t end.

So what would you have us do? Just release the money? There's ZERO guarantee the Taliban will use that as its account holders would wish.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

It's trying to exert leverage to help retain 20 years' worth of social change that has in fact occurred in Afghanistan while our forces were there.

No it's not and I'm actually shocked that you believe that cover story. It's retaliation for making us look like incompetent idiots, although we needed zero help doing that, and a desperate attempt to make it look like we give a damn when we don't. We'll just starve them into appreciating us again.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

So what would you have us do? Just release the money? There's ZERO guarantee the Taliban will use that as its account holders would wish.

There was zero accountability when we gave them the money the first time and clearly there wasn't either with the government we installed.

You honestly believe if we released the money that they would just maintain the current starvation level?

 

[lizkat]

No it's not and I'm actually shocked that you believe that cover story. It's retaliation for making us look like incompetent idiots, although we needed zero help doing that, and a desperate attempt to make it look like we give a damn when we don't. We'll just starve them into appreciating us again.

All is not necessarily lost in the advances that were made over those 20 years. You can't do what the Taliban is doing to a generation of women who grew up in freedoms that have abruptly been cancelled. They can try to roll things back, but that is not how time and social tides and human expectations work... as certain Americans trying to roll back various other Americans' civil rights are also in the process of discovering.

There was zero accountability when we gave them the money the first time and clearly there wasn't either with the government we installed.

You honestly believe if we released the money that they would just maintain the current starvation level?

I have no idea what they'd do with the money but like all corrupt governments it would be something to curry favor and protect their own asses If it involved getting some food to starving people and making photo ops of it, sure, they'd do that with some of it. They'd also make hay off the propaganda value of the retrieval of access to the funds, which of course IS one of the reasons the Americans don't want to go there, I'll give you that.

 

[NT1440]

All is not necessarily lost in the advances that were made over those 20 years. You can't do what the Taliban is doing to a generation of women who grew up in freedoms that have abruptly been cancelled. They can try to roll things back, but that is not how time and social tides and human expectations work... as certain Americans trying to roll back various other Americans' civil rights are also in the process of discovering.



I have no idea what they'd do with the money but like all corrupt governments it would be something to curry favor and protect their own asses If it involved getting some food to starving people and making photo ops of it, sure, they'd do that with some of it. They'd also make hay off the propaganda value of the retrieval of access to the funds, which of course IS one of the reasons the Americans don't want to go there, I'll give you that.

How can I explain this simply? Our actions are preventing Afghans from getting their own money from banks. If I can’t acquire currency to buy food, don’t I come *more* reliant on *whatever* government entity is able to get food to me?

Again, this is not about handing money to the Taliban. We’ve disrupted regular banking, like the ability for an afghan citizen to be able to withdraw funds from their OWN personal accounts. We’re purposely preventing commerce to function at the state level to prevent people from being able to eat and heat their homes.

The abstract notion that it’s *intent* is to prevent the Taliban from getting money, clashes with the *reality* we’re *actively* preventing millions of people from eating.

It’s one of the most barbaric actions of my lifetime and people are just waxing poetic about *why* we’re committing this clear human rights atrocity on a mass scale. As if *any* pretense can somehow justify this direct action by the US state.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

How can I explain this simply? Our actions are preventing Afghans from getting their own money from banks. If I can’t acquire currency to buy food, don’t I come *more* reliant on *whatever* government entity is able to get food to me?

Again, this is not about handing money to the Taliban. We’ve disrupted regular banking, like the ability for an afghan citizen to be able to withdraw funds from their OWN personal accounts. We’re purposely preventing commerce to function at the state level to prevent people from being able to eat and heat their homes.

The abstract notion that it’s *intent* is to prevent the Taliban from getting money, clashes with the *reality* we’re *actively* preventing millions of people from eating.

It’s one of the most barbaric actions of my lifetime and people are just waxing poetic about *why* we’re committing this clear human rights atrocity on a mass scale. As if *any* pretense can somehow justify this direct action by the US state.

Are you suggesting that starving the general population in order to prevent the current government from maybe arming themselves (more) isn't good policy and counterproductive to human rights and goodwill?

How many starved dead Afghans per female allowed to go to school is acceptable? Maybe that potential female student is among the starved dead. Wrap your head around that one.

 

[lizkat]

How can I explain this simply? Our actions are preventing Afghans from getting their own money from banks. If I can’t acquire currency to buy food, don’t I come *more* reliant on *whatever* government entity is able to get food to me?

Again, this is not about handing money to the Taliban. We’ve disrupted regular banking, like the ability for an afghan citizen to be able to withdraw funds from their OWN personal accounts. We’re purposely preventing commerce to function at the state level to prevent people from being able to eat and heat their homes.

The abstract notion that it’s *intent* is to prevent the Taliban from getting money, clashes with the *reality* we’re *actively* preventing millions of people from eating.

It’s one of the most barbaric actions of my lifetime and people are just waxing poetic about *why* we’re committing this clear human rights atrocity on a mass scale. As if *any* pretense can somehow justify this direct action by the US state.

Look, before the collapse of the previous Afghan government, the banks there were forced to behave was because most of the money floating around the system was from donor nations and was disbursed only when th donors could validate the need for disbursement. International banks still did some business there because they felt there were adequate safeguards against blatant looting, no matter that corruption has always been an issue in Afghan banking.

But when the government fell, a lot of local banks were then just looted by factions whose loyalty to Taliban was a matter of local convenience... you know, the convenience of being tired of seeing your tribesmen slaughtered if they disagreed with the Taliban's better-supplied power to enforce local rule.

So then the only money floating around in the banking system inside Aghanistan was mostly whatever the drug and weapons trade afforded since that was internal -- cash, laundered or otherwise, on the barrelhead-- and not subject to international audit.

On the outside, internaitonal banks were and still are like "uh, yeah, well you go first..."

What's still being impeded for the most part is regular transfers through the international system, yes. There are ways around that, and it's true that both individuals and donor nations have used them in the past --person to person "hawala" network transfers and the like-- to get cash into the scene wherever sanctions or just bankng risk aversion has limited normal commerce, like in Mali for instance. But in late December the UN did come to agreements on some exemptions to sanctions in Afghanistan so that the flow of humanitarian aid could resume.

That the US refuses to play ball by releasing frozen assets is a separate thing, though, and why should they let that money go? It was likely either ill-gotten to begin with or else from the USA Treasury for openers. If we could guarantee it would go directly for bread and blankets to ordinary Afghans, that's one thing. But we can't right now, and we don't need to help the Taliban amp up their bragging game by just rolling over and saying yeah you won the war and by the way --since 'to the victor, the spoils'-- here's a bunch of cash that was stashed over here until the previous government could justify laying hands on it.

Well as it happens the previous government did not come up with validated requests for disbursement of all tthat happens to remain in those now frozen assets. I don't see how the Taliban could do that either, since they are merely claiming it's Afghanistan's money and should just be turned over to the current government.

It's been clear all along that tribal compliance with Taliban requests to change sides and stand with them was a matter of wanting to survive as the war dragged on and on. It's not like the Afghans are in love with Taliban since the fall of the other central government they despised. From their POV the central government now is just another cesspit of corruption. After all, they were bought off in the provinces so they know how it works.