Supreme Court says taxes can fund religious schools

[SuperMatt]

The conservatives on the Supreme Court have ruled that Maine‘s law that only allows tax money to fund non-religious schools is unconstitutional.

Part of the argument for Maine was that the schools in question openly discriminate against homosexuals, transgender people, and non-Christians.

So, if you give any public money to private schools, you must give them to any private school, whether it’s religious or not.

My take: public money shouldn’t be going to private K-12 schools at all. The mentality seems to be: “Well, there’s no way to fix public schools so let’s take money away from them and give it to private schools.“ Which of course makes the public schools worse since they now have less money… and the cycle continues.

In Maine, the situation seems slightly different, in that some rural areas don’t have public schools nearby. Well… they should fix that instead of subsidizing private schools, IMO.

I wonder if the court would have felt differently if it was a school that banned all christians and straight kids.

 

[Cmaier]

The conservatives on the Supreme Court have ruled that Maine‘s law that only allows tax money to fund non-religious schools is unconstitutional.

Part of the argument for Maine was that the schools in question openly discriminate against homosexuals, transgender people, and non-Christians.

So, if you give any public money to private schools, you must give them to any private school, whether it’s religious or not.

My take: public money shouldn’t be going to private K-12 schools at all. The mentality seems to be: “Well, there’s no way to fix public schools so let’s take money away from them and give it to private schools.“ Which of course makes the public schools worse since they now have less money… and the cycle continues.

In Maine, the situation seems slightly different, in that some rural areas don’t have public schools nearby. Well… they should fix that instead of subsidizing private schools, IMO.

I wonder if the court would have felt differently if it was a school that banned all christians and straight kids.

The way I read the ruling, it wasn’t so broad? In this case the state didn’t give any money to schools - it gave it to parents, and the parents gave it to schools. The court seemed to consider that sort of a circuit breaker re: the establishment clause.

 

[JayMysteri0]

The impression I got is that is was a solution looking for a problem. Much in the way conservatives have looked endlessly for the solution to the problem of abortion, so they threw many things out hoping one would stick. This comes across to me as a solution to the problem of blurring then eventually erasing the problem of the separation of church & state. This was so specific ( a problem that only Maine & maybe Vermont faces ) a thing in the country, but the ramifications may affect the whole country later.

In her dissent, Sotomayor wrote: "This Court continues to dismantle the wall of separation between church and state that the Framers fought to build. ... The consequences of the Court's rapid transformation of the Religion Clauses must not be understated."

 

[Edd]

Truly, religion is a scourge. Get rid of it and many problems would be solved.

 

[AG_PhamD]

I don’t think it’s appropriate for the government to be directly funding religious institutions. But I also don’t necessarily have a problem with the whole school voucher scheme. Why not let people choose where their kids are educated and where their allocated education dollars go?

That said, I also don’t think it’s unreasonable for the government to decide what private schools are allowed to accept vouchers based on certain standards. If schools want to accept vouchers, they should have to accept students regardless of their sexual orientation and not discriminate against them. That seems like a pretty reasonable standard in 2022.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

I don’t think it’s appropriate for the government to be directly funding religious institutions. But I also don’t necessarily have a problem with the whole school voucher scheme. Why not let people choose where their kids are educated and where their allocated education dollars go?

That said, I also don’t think it’s unreasonable for the government to decide what private schools are allowed to accept vouchers based on certain standards. If schools want to accept vouchers, they should have to accept students regardless of their sexual orientation and not discriminate against them. That seems like a pretty reasonable standard in 2022.

This might be a bridge too far for some people, but if a school is going to claim they are a Christian school then they should have to prove that they have some familiarity with the complete Christian Bible and its teachings. That requirement would probably shut half these places down overnight.

The conservative right wants to replace public schools with warped Christianity indoctrination camps where Middle Eastern Jesus somehow favored white people the most.

 

[Roller]

I don’t think it’s appropriate for the government to be directly funding religious institutions. But I also don’t necessarily have a problem with the whole school voucher scheme. Why not let people choose where their kids are educated and where their allocated education dollars go?

That said, I also don’t think it’s unreasonable for the government to decide what private schools are allowed to accept vouchers based on certain standards. If schools want to accept vouchers, they should have to accept students regardless of their sexual orientation and not discriminate against them. That seems like a pretty reasonable standard in 2022.

One could reasonably ask how direct funding differs from indirect support, which is essentially what tax exemption does. But I realize that would open a huge can of squirmy critters.

 

[Alli]

If they are allowing a Christian school, they’re going to have to support schools associated with every other religion from Muslim to Satanist. Will the yeshivas in NY also get funding?

The big issue with funding going to non-public schools is that they do not have to keep students. Public schools do. Low grades in private or charter schools? Send them back to public school. Bad behavior in private or charter schools? Send them back to public schools. Public schools are all set for special needs students. Non-public does not even have to take them in…since they’re covered in public education.

 

[SuperMatt]

I don’t think it’s appropriate for the government to be directly funding religious institutions. But I also don’t necessarily have a problem with the whole school voucher scheme. Why not let people choose where their kids are educated and where their allocated education dollars go?

That said, I also don’t think it’s unreasonable for the government to decide what private schools are allowed to accept vouchers based on certain standards. If schools want to accept vouchers, they should have to accept students regardless of their sexual orientation and not discriminate against them. That seems like a pretty reasonable standard in 2022.

I would guess most Americans agree with you.

However, this Supreme Court (starting about 10-20 years ago) has decided separation of church and state is no longer a thing.

This court is wildly out of touch with the majority of Americans, and is an emblem of what’s wrong with the U.S. Senate and the electoral college.

 

[SuperMatt]

If they are allowing a Christian school, they’re going to have to support schools associated with every other religion from Muslim to Satanist. Will the yeshivas in NY also get funding?

The big issue with funding going to non-public schools is that they do not have to keep students. Public schools do. Low grades in private or charter schools? Send them back to public school. Bad behavior in private or charter schools? Send them back to public schools. Public schools are all set for special needs students. Non-public does not even have to take them in…since they’re covered in public education.

Maine just needs to get rid of all funding for private schools. Were I a resident there, I would NOT want my tax money going to a fundamentalist religious school that proudly discriminates against LGBTQ kids.

The way things are going with this Supreme Court, we will soon find that Catholic Hospitals will be able to turn away patients because of their religious beliefs.

 

[SuperMatt]

From the dissent of Sotomayor:

What a difference five years makes. In 2017, I feared that the Court was “lead[ing] us . . . to a place where separation of church and state is a constitutional slogan, not a constitutional commitment.” Trinity Lutheran, 582 U. S., at ___ (dissenting opinion) (slip op., at 27). Today, the Court leads us to a place where separation of church and state becomes a constitutional violation. If a State cannot offer subsidies to its citizens without being required to fund religious exercise, any State that values its historic antiestablishment interests more than this Court does will have to curtail the support it offers to its citizens. With growing concern for where this Court will lead us next, I respectfully dissent.

 

[AG_PhamD]

One could reasonably ask how direct funding differs from indirect support, which is essentially what tax exemption does. But I realize that would open a huge can of squirmy critters.

Indirect funding is not guaranteed. If parents choose to use their school vouchers at a religious school, that’s their choice, not the governments. Direct funding presumably guarantees money. It’s no different than how students of private religious colleges get indirect funding through federal financial aid.

Granted, private religious colleges get direct federal grants too for things other than tuition assistance. Given the cost of college, I don’t think these schools (or any other non-religious colleges charging many tens of thousands per year) should be getting such funding. We’ll talk about Federal funding when tuition + R&B isn’t $60,000+ and the endowment is less than say hundreds of millions of dollars.

For example, Yeshiva University in NYC got a $1m federal grant this year to renovate part of their campus. They also charge $65,000/yr and have an $814m endowment. Even regardless of the fact this is a religious university, why is taxpayer money supporting this?

 

[mollyc]

Indirect funding is not guaranteed. If parents choose to use their school vouchers at a religious school, that’s their choice, not the governments. Direct funding presumably guarantees money. It’s no different than how students of private religious colleges get indirect funding through federal financial aid.

Granted, private religious colleges get direct federal grants too for things other than tuition assistance. Given the cost of college, I don’t think these schools (or any other non-religious colleges charging many tens of thousands per year) should be getting such funding. We’ll talk about Federal funding when tuition + R&B isn’t $60,000+ and the endowment is less than say hundreds of millions of dollars.

For example, Yeshiva University in NYC got a $1m federal grant this year to renovate part of their campus. They also charge $65,000/yr and have an $814m endowment. Even regardless of the fact this is a religious university, why is taxpayer money supporting this?

I graduated from a small Presbyterian college in western Pennsylvania. They won a Supreme Court case in 1984 stating that they could do whatever they want since they refused to accept federal funding (obviously a very condensed version here). They still do not accept federal loans or grants for students. They also have an annual tuition cost of $20,000. While I would probably not opt to attend there again, for a lot of different reasons, I have always admired the fact that they stood up to the government for what they held as core values and won against them.

 

[Cmaier]

I graduated from a small Presbyterian college in western Pennsylvania. They won a Supreme Court case in 1984 stating that they could do whatever they want since they refused to accept federal funding (obviously a very condensed version here). They still do not accept federal loans or grants for students. They also have an annual tuition cost of $20,000. While I would probably not opt to attend there again, for a lot of different reasons, I have always admired the fact that they stood up to the government for what they held as core values and won against them.

My wife is a Presbyterian from western pennsylvania. She went to grove city.

 

[mollyc]

My wife is a Presbyterian from western pennsylvania. She went to grove city.

yes!!! that’s the one! what year did she graduate?

 

[Cmaier]

yes!!! that’s the one! what year did she graduate?

1990.

Pretty sure the current version of her would never have gone there

 

[mollyc]

1990.

Pretty sure the current version of her would never have gone there

i was 1996.

 

[Cmaier]

i was 1996.

Phew. Was worried you were the Molly who was in her sorority.

 

[mollyc]

Phew. Was worried you were the Molly who was in her sorority.

it’s a small world but apparently not that small