The 2020 Vice Presidential Debate: Pence vs. Harris

Who won the debate?

  • Pence

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Harris

    Votes: 8 53.3%
  • tie

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • The fly

    Votes: 6 40.0%

  • Total voters
    15
  • Poll closed .

Thomas Veil

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I don’t know what to think about who won the debate.

To me, the goal was to impress any on-the-fence voters who might be left. From that angle, I felt Harris came off weaker than I expected. I know she wanted to avoid the both-talking-at-the-same-time problem that marked Trump’s debate with Biden, but by just sitting there quietly as Pence violated the rules over and over again, she looked like a woman who’d allow a man to walk all over her. That may not be who she really is, but that’s how it looked to me last night. She also spent at least as much time giving stock talking point responses as she did answering the actual question or rebutting the many lies that came out of Pence’s mouth.

My wife and the pundits at MSNBC thought that Harris came out of the debate much more impressive than Pence did, but they’re homers for the Democratic Party. I am too, but I’m trying to judge the debate objectively, and while to me it wasn’t a disaster, at best I think it was a draw. Pence got away with a lot of crap last night. And some people will believe it.
 

lizkat

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I don’t know what to think about who won the debate.
Main thing is that Harris brought the team's platform to the table, addressed the viewers several times on points Pence was dodging, and didn't say anything she'll have to regret for the rest of her political life. When your opponents are behind the eightball it's best to run out the clock anyway. She avoided fewer questions than he did, so... that plus the fly on Pence's head swing it to Harris.

Pence wouldn't cross his boss to affirm support for peaceful transition of power if Trump loses. Seriously? Even the lackey-led Senate went that far for god's sake, and the House vote on similar resolution was 397 to 5, all dissenters from GOP. Pence though just slid around and finally said well Trump was going to win. There's no bottom to depths Pence will go to avoid making Trump think MIkey might be measuring for new WH drapes on his own account.

Pence said things that will never attract any fence sitters to a vote for Trump. The manner of his speaking, the oily condescension in overriding Harris and the moderator both at times, as if they had forgotten who runs the world, was offputting to at least this woman regardless of what he was saying.
 

Eric

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I don’t know what to think about who won the debate.

To me, the goal was to impress any on-the-fence voters who might be left. From that angle, I felt Harris came off weaker than I expected. I know she wanted to avoid the both-talking-at-the-same-time problem that marked Trump’s debate with Biden, but by just sitting there quietly as Pence violated the rules over and over again, she looked like a woman who’d allow a man to walk all over her. That may not be who she really is, but that’s how it looked to me last night. She also spent at least as much time giving stock talking point responses as she did answering the actual question or rebutting the many lies that came out of Pence’s mouth.

My wife and the pundits at MSNBC thought that Harris came out of the debate much more impressive than Pence did, but they’re homers for the Democratic Party. I am too, but I’m trying to judge the debate objectively, and while to me it wasn’t a disaster, at best I think it was a draw. Pence got away with a lot of crap last night. And some people will believe it.
Here's how CNN saw it.

EjzVrwLVkAALgZY
 

Scepticalscribe

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Yeah, Pence is absolutely lying and making up stuff, but Harris isn’t going after him enough. And the moderator absolutely needs to tell Pence to STFU.

Joy Reid made a great point: Mike Pence was supposed to be helping Trump with women, yet all he did was that condescending male thing where he talks over and interrupts a woman every time she tries to speak.

And yes, Susan Page needed to be a lot more commanding.

I don’t know what to think about who won the debate.

To me, the goal was to impress any on-the-fence voters who might be left. From that angle, I felt Harris came off weaker than I expected. I know she wanted to avoid the both-talking-at-the-same-time problem that marked Trump’s debate with Biden, but by just sitting there quietly as Pence violated the rules over and over again, she looked like a woman who’d allow a man to walk all over her. That may not be who she really is, but that’s how it looked to me last night. She also spent at least as much time giving stock talking point responses as she did answering the actual question or rebutting the many lies that came out of Pence’s mouth.

My wife and the pundits at MSNBC thought that Harris came out of the debate much more impressive than Pence did, but they’re homers for the Democratic Party. I am too, but I’m trying to judge the debate objectively, and while to me it wasn’t a disaster, at best I think it was a draw. Pence got away with a lot of crap last night. And some people will believe it.

Guys (and gals), the old double standard applies here: Come across as a confident, commanding, articulate, assertive, knowledgeable, experienced - and tough - woman - especially if you are a woman of colour, - and see the insults and epithets fly, the least offensive which would have been "strident", or "shrill", "unfeeling" (as opposed to "emotional"), "ball-breaker", and subtlest and nastiest of all - because you cannot train, rehearse or prepare for it, and because it is so subtle, sneaky, subjective, and utterly unfair, for white men are not penalised for being "unlikeable" - namely, "unlikeable".

Therefore, Harris's task in the TV debate was to signal cool, calm, competent, confidence, and that she is collected and calm and unflappable under pressure; remember that the racists detest above all people of colour who are cool and calm in temperament (as Barack Obama was, - I remain convinced that this was one reason the racists really hated him - for, as with women dismissed as "emotional" - and therefore, unfit for the responsibility of professional life or high office, the trope of the "angry black" person, male or above all, female, would be seized upon with fulsome glee as something to be used against them).

Thus, her task was to calmly and coolly state her case, to stay collected and in control, and not to make mistakes - not even slips of the tongue - that could be seized upon that might offer the GOP and its lunatic enablers in the media and elsewhere something that would stick that they could attack the Biden campaign with. Her task was not to lose; to leave the GOP and their foul facilitators with nothing they could use subsequently as an attack point.

I have no doubt whatsoever that the decision not to be more assertive and forceful (and public opinion just loves to take apart assertive women, especially assertive women who are also people of colour) was deliberate and had been taken in advance after much consideration, discussion, debate, preparation and thought.

Anyone who knows her, knows the she is not weak.

However - and we saw this with Michelle Obama, who, granted, was not an office holder (though I would have loved to have seen her as such, she rocks) - strong and competent and ferociously intelligent and exceptionally qualified women, especially women of colour, receive a lot of abuse simply for showing that strength and ability.

Nevertheless, what is of far greater concern to me is that Mr Pence did not give an undertaking - he refused to give an undertaking - that he would respect the results of the election and support a peaceful transition (if the election results suggested a GOP defeat).
 
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Eric

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It will stick in my mind that Karen Pence wore no mask in appearing on stage at the end,
Unbelievable. Republicans have sent a clear message on their distain for common sense preventative measures and while it's infuriating it's also a losing battle for them in this election, so we can take some comfort in that. Less than a month folks, hang tight and keep working to get that vote out.
 

Huntn

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I’m ready to move back to Taiwan. Such good food. And they have Covid under control.
When I imagine an alternative country I‘d seriously consider living in, sure the UK, Ireland, France, Switzerland, and Italy pop into my head, but then I realize there are issues everywhere, besides culture shock and language barrier for 3 of those. If Canada, a bit cold for my taste today, it would have to be Vancouver.
 

lizkat

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When I imagine an alternative country I‘d seriously consider living in, sure the UK, Ireland, France, Switzerland, and Italy pop into my head, but then I realize there are issues everywhere, besides culture shock and language barrier for 3 of those. If Canada, a bit cold for my taste today, it would have to be Vancouver.

Yeah I always hang onto that old tried but true cliché about "Wherever you go, there you are" which is another reason to think hard about making a geographic relocation..,

But as to where I'd go, second to my hazy daydreams about Portugal come the maritime provinces of Canada --because I do after all really like distinct change of seasons and cold weather... once the greys and darkness of the pre-solstice have passed.

Unbelievable. Republicans have sent a clear message on their distain for common sense preventative measures and while it's infuriating it's also a losing battle for them in this election, so we can take some comfort in that. Less than a month folks, hang tight and keep working to get that vote out.

I can't tell you how many women I know --across the political spectrum-- have commented to me last night and this morning about how off-putting Mike Pence seemed to them. In general, summed up well by Joe Lockhart, and also as specifically as AOC had noted in her tweet.

Uh yeah.jpg



AOC nails the Pence problem.jpg
 

Huntn

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Pence: (creatively paraphrased) I look forward to discussing health care because Obamacare was a disaster and Obamacare is all I can talk about because I have Nada.

For the dim witted who like this answer, I’ll counter, that it‘s better than The Nothing that Trump and the GOP have countered with, including Pence last night. The GOP has ZERO interest in Federally guided, affordable health care. You’re on your own kid. 👀
 
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Huntn

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Anyone who thought Chris Wallace was a lousy moderator is probably sorry now, cause Susan was so much worse. She needed to replace “thank you, Mr. Vice President” with “oh shut up, man.”

I’m sorry neither of them addressed the question dealing with the age of their partners. I’m glad Pence didn’t address any question.

I’m annoyed that Pence got every question first. Shouldn’t they have alternated? Isn’t that how it works?
I’m wondering about these new more strict rules that governs Presidential Debates. Pence would be asked a question and Instead of answering would talk about something from the last topic where he did not like what Harris said and frequently he would not stop when his time was up.
 

lizkat

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I’m wondering about these new more strict rules that governs Presidential Debates. Pence would be asked a question and Instead of answering would talk about something from the last topic where he did not like what Harris said and frequently he would not stop when his time was up.
One of my friends was so incensed about that she felt that Page should have said at the very end something like "Senator Harris, you have five minutes extra to speak now, to correspond to the unauthorized overtime imposed on our schedule tonight by the Vice President."

Interesting that Pence dissed Harris for noting that Trump frequently dodges condemnation of white supremacy; after she remarked on Trump's notorious "stand back and stand by" remark on the ProudBoys, he quickly pivoted to Trump having Jewish grandchildren and allegedly loving and respecting "all Americans." One (nonobservant Jewish) pal commented

"Now Pence brings the 2020 version of some of my best friends are Jewish? Fail."​
 

Thomas Veil

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I’m wondering about these new more strict rules that governs Presidential Debates. Pence would be asked a question and Instead of answering would talk about something from the last topic where he did not like what Harris said and frequently he would not stop when his time was up.
I’ve seen politicians do that plenty of times, but never combined with taking way more than their allotted time, which is what made it so maddening.
One of my friends was so incensed about that she felt that Page should have said at the very end something like "Senator Harris, you have five minutes extra to speak now, to correspond to the unauthorized overtime imposed on our schedule tonight by the Vice President."
I wanted to hear that too. But at least in the end (according to media reports) they both got in an equal amount of talking time. Frankly I’m amazed because it sure didn’t seem that way.
 

Thomas Veil

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Main thing is that Harris brought the team's platform to the table, addressed the viewers several times on points Pence was dodging, and didn't say anything she'll have to regret for the rest of her political life. When your opponents are behind the eightball it's best to run out the clock anyway. She avoided fewer questions than he did, so... that plus the fly on Pence's head swing it to Harris.

Guys (and gals), the old double standard applies here: Come across as a confident, commanding, articulate, assertive, knowledgeable, experienced - and tough - woman - especially if you are a woman of colour, - and see the insults and epithets fly, the least offensive which would have been "strident", or "shrill", "unfeeling" (as opposed to "emotional"), "ball-breaker", and subtlest and nastiest of all - because you cannot train, rehearse or prepare for it, and because it is so subtle, sneaky, subjective, and utterly unfair, for white men are not penalised for being "unlikeable" - namely, "unlikeable".

Therefore, Harris's task in the TV debate was to signal cool, calm, competent, confidence, and that she is collected and calm and unflappable under pressure; remember that the racists detest above all people of colour who are cool and calm in temperament (as Barack Obama was, - I remain convinced that this was one reason the racists really hated him - for, as with women dismissed as "emotional" - and therefore, unfit for the responsibility of professional life or high office, the trope of the "angry black" person, male or above all, female, would be seized upon with fulsome glee as something to be used against them).

Thus, her task was to calmly and coolly state her case, to stay collected and in control, and not to make mistakes - not even slips of the tongue - that could be seized upon that might offer the GOP and its lunatic enablers in the media and elsewhere something that would stick that they could attack the Biden campaign with. Her task was not to lose; to leave the GOP and their foul facilitators with nothing they could use subsequently as an attack point.

You both bring up excellent points. I hope the viewers saw it the same way.
 
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