ICE Vehicles: General topics

Huntn

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Hybrid is the near future as far as a standard vehicle. I don’t see all electric cars being standard until there are a ton of infrastructure and battery improvements. Who will sit around waiting for their batteries to recharge? At one point I thought they might be able to swap batteries, but they are just too expensive, massive and integrated, at least that is my impression.
 

Huntn

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Sadly not. The gearbox was exempt and Fiat were appalling when dealing with it.

Be interested to see the bill for yours.
That sounds chicken shit regarding the gearbox. Exempt From warranty? Most of the new cars I’m aware of have bumper to bumper warranties for 2-4 years.

Of possible interest when I bought my 1975 Fiat Spider in 1975 I asked around before hand and it was a 50-50 split between loving it and warning me about maintenance issues. I jumped on it, it was a beautiful car, and never had issues with it, selling it in 1982 before heading to Guam for 3 years In the USN to fly EP-3 spy planes. :)
 
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My Nissan truck is now 9 years old and I have been patiently waiting for someone to release a hybrid truck in Europe and I am getting tired of waiting. Also, I won't really need a truck to carry hay etc anymore, so I've started thinking about getting a "run-around" electric SUV type vehicle. The VW ID.4 looked like a possibility, but then I found out about the upcoming Hyundai Ioniq and I really dig it. I could purchase this for me as a company vehicle, since the company car tax is super low and it makes sense from a company tax efficiency point of view as well.


View attachment 5074
As an EV owner (BMW i3), I'd say it all depends on your needs, access to charging, climate, budget etc.

The questions you need to ask yourself for an EV:
1. Is this going to be a primary or secondary car?
2. Do you have access to overnight charging?
3. How cold do winters get where you'll use it. (Subzero temps usually eat 30-40% of range due to higher air density, and huge energy demand on heating).
4. Can you wait 2-3 more years, when Subaru, Toyota, Honda, Ford will come out with their EVs. Moore's law kinda applies to cars...Battery capacity/pricing was cut in half every 2 years. I think the new standard range is about 240mi, so in 2 years you could either get something in the 400mi range, or buy something nearly half the price. And this applies to used EVs. BMW's i3 pricing is a joke at like 60K, but you can now buy one for ~15K. These don't hold value and won't until the market is saturated. Tesla keeps their prices up through their tech edge (model 3 shortage before, now being the only EV maker with 7 seater in a $50K range).
 

DT

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My Nissan truck is now 9 years old and I have been patiently waiting for someone to release a hybrid truck in Europe and I am getting tired of waiting. Also, I won't really need a truck to carry hay etc anymore, so I've started thinking about getting a "run-around" electric SUV type vehicle. The VW ID.4 looked like a possibility, but then I found out about the upcoming Hyundai Ioniq and I really dig it. I could purchase this for me as a company vehicle, since the company car tax is super low and it makes sense from a company tax efficiency point of view as well.

I really dig on the IONIQ design. Hyundai (and Kia) have been kicking ass for the last few years, Korea is now setting car standards and trends (not so much Japan at the moment ...)
 
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I really dig on the IONIQ design. Hyundai (and Kia) have been kicking ass for the last few years, Korea is now setting car standards and trends (not so much Japan at the moment ...)
New Hyundais are surprisingly good. Plus they now have plenty of EV experience...unlike Toyota. So Ioniq 5 will be a good car, but no matter how much urge I feel to pull the trigger on a new EV, my wallet always reminds me to wait a little because it's a BAAAAD investment right now.
 

DT

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As an EV owner (BMW i3), I'd say it all depends on your needs, access to charging, climate, budget etc.

The questions you need to ask yourself for an EV:
1. Is this going to be a primary or secondary car?
2. Do you have access to overnight charging?
3. How cold do winters get where you'll use it. (Subzero temps usually eat 30-40% of range due to higher air density, and huge energy demand on heating).
4. Can you wait 2-3 more years, when Subaru, Toyota, Honda, Ford will come out with their EVs. Moore's law kinda applies to cars...Battery capacity/pricing was cut in half every 2 years. I think the new standard range is about 240mi, so in 2 years you could either get something in the 400mi range, or buy something nearly half the price. And this applies to used EVs. BMW's i3 pricing is a joke at like 60K, but you can now buy one for ~15K. These don't hold value and won't until the market is saturated. Tesla keeps their prices up through their tech edge (model 3 shortage before, now being the only EV maker with 7 seater in a $50K range).

Yeah, those are good discussion points, #2 is especially notable - recently there was an article about people returning to ICE from EV, several factors, but a big one was lack of home charging (huge majority of people polled lived in apartments).

I'd agree on the standard, well, standard-ISH range being 240 to maybe 250/260, with the "really good" current ranges in the 300-330 (a few the more mid/upper 300s), then a few models (some very premium) with 400+ due out 2022 Of course, that consideration is in combination with charging, speed, home availability, etc.

Here's a current chart from an EV site (well, neat, that C&P'ed nicely ...), ranges, models, availability:

Electric VehicleEPA est. RangeRelease Date
Tesla Model S Plaid+520+ milesMid 2022
Lucid Air Grand Touring517 milesLate 2021 (TBC)
Lucid Air Dream Edition503 milesSecond half 2021
Tesla Cybertruck Tri Motor500+ milesLate 2021
Tesla Model S Long Range412 milesSept/Oct 2021
Lucid Air Touring406 milesLate 2021 (TBC)
Tesla Model S Plaid390 milesAug/Sept 2021
Tesla Model X Long Range360 milesJan/Feb 2022
Tesla Model 3 Long Range353 milesAvailable
Tesla Model X Plaid340 milesJan/Feb 2022
Tesla Model Y Long Range326 milesAvailable
Tesla Model 3 Performance315 milesAvailable
Ford Mustang Mach-E CA Route 1 Edition305 milesAvailable
Tesla Model Y Performance303 milesAvailable
Rivian R1T Launch Edition300+ milesJune 2021
Rivian R1S Launch Edition300+ milesAugust 2021
Tesla Cybertruck Dual Motor300+ milesLate 2021
Ford Mustang Mach-E Premium300 milesAvailable
Ford Mustang Mach-E First Edition270 milesAvailable
Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus263 milesAvailable
Chevy Bolt EV (2021)259 milesAvailable
Chevy Bolt (2022)259 milesSummer 2021
Hyundai Kona Electric258 milesAvailable
Lordstown Motors Endurance250+ milesSeptember 2021
Volkswagen ID.4250 milesAvailable
Chevy Bolt EUV (2022)250 milesSummer 2021
Polestar 2233 milesAvailable
Ford Mustang Mach-E Select211 milesAvailable
Ford Mustang Mach-E GT250 milesEnd of summer 2021
Tesla Model Y Standard Range244 milesAvailable
Kia Nero EV239 milesAvailable
Audi e-tron GT238 miles*Summer 2021
Jaguar I-Pace234 milesAvailable
Audi RS e-tron GT232 miles*Summer 2021
Porsche Taycan 4S227 milesAvailable
Nissan Leaf Plus226 milesAvailable
Audi e-tron222 milesAvailable
Porsche Taycan Turbo212 milesAvailable
Volvo XC40 Recharge208 milesAvailable
Porsche Taycan Turbo S201 milesAvailable
BMW i3 & i3s w/ range extender200 milesAvailable
Hyundai Ioniq Electric170 milesAvailable
BMW i3 & i3s153 milesAvailable
MINI Cooper Electric110 milesAvailable


Tesla obviously has a big advantage on charging, being able to use any charger, including their own (and Superchargers where available).

I'm just idling, waiting to see what happens with the Fed Tax credit and/or any other incentives, something hits in the area of $7K, I'll start shopping, it drops at $10K, I'm ordering the same day :D
 
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Yeah, those are good discussion points, #2 is especially notable - recently there was an article about people returning to ICE from EV, several factors, but a big one was lack of home charging (huge majority of people polled lived in apartments).

I'd agree on the standard, well, standard-ISH range being 240 to maybe 250/260, with the "really good" current ranges in the 300-330 (a few the more mid/upper 300s), then a few models (some very premium) with 400+ due out 2022 Of course, that consideration is in combination with charging, speed, home availability, etc.

Here's a current chart from an EV site (well, neat, that C&P'ed nicely ...), ranges, models, availability:

Electric VehicleEPA est. RangeRelease Date
Tesla Model S Plaid+520+ milesMid 2022
Lucid Air Grand Touring517 milesLate 2021 (TBC)
Lucid Air Dream Edition503 milesSecond half 2021
Tesla Cybertruck Tri Motor500+ milesLate 2021
Tesla Model S Long Range412 milesSept/Oct 2021
Lucid Air Touring406 milesLate 2021 (TBC)
Tesla Model S Plaid390 milesAug/Sept 2021
Tesla Model X Long Range360 milesJan/Feb 2022
Tesla Model 3 Long Range353 milesAvailable
Tesla Model X Plaid340 milesJan/Feb 2022
Tesla Model Y Long Range326 milesAvailable
Tesla Model 3 Performance315 milesAvailable
Ford Mustang Mach-E CA Route 1 Edition305 milesAvailable
Tesla Model Y Performance303 milesAvailable
Rivian R1T Launch Edition300+ milesJune 2021
Rivian R1S Launch Edition300+ milesAugust 2021
Tesla Cybertruck Dual Motor300+ milesLate 2021
Ford Mustang Mach-E Premium300 milesAvailable
Ford Mustang Mach-E First Edition270 milesAvailable
Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus263 milesAvailable
Chevy Bolt EV (2021)259 milesAvailable
Chevy Bolt (2022)259 milesSummer 2021
Hyundai Kona Electric258 milesAvailable
Lordstown Motors Endurance250+ milesSeptember 2021
Volkswagen ID.4250 milesAvailable
Chevy Bolt EUV (2022)250 milesSummer 2021
Polestar 2233 milesAvailable
Ford Mustang Mach-E Select211 milesAvailable
Ford Mustang Mach-E GT250 milesEnd of summer 2021
Tesla Model Y Standard Range244 milesAvailable
Kia Nero EV239 milesAvailable
Audi e-tron GT238 miles*Summer 2021
Jaguar I-Pace234 milesAvailable
Audi RS e-tron GT232 miles*Summer 2021
Porsche Taycan 4S227 milesAvailable
Nissan Leaf Plus226 milesAvailable
Audi e-tron222 milesAvailable
Porsche Taycan Turbo212 milesAvailable
Volvo XC40 Recharge208 milesAvailable
Porsche Taycan Turbo S201 milesAvailable
BMW i3 & i3s w/ range extender200 milesAvailable
Hyundai Ioniq Electric170 milesAvailable
BMW i3 & i3s153 milesAvailable
MINI Cooper Electric110 milesAvailable


Tesla obviously has a big advantage on charging, being able to use any charger, including their own (and Superchargers where available).

I'm just idling, waiting to see what happens with the Fed Tax credit and/or any other incentives, something hits in the area of $7K, I'll start shopping, it drops at $10K, I'm ordering the same day :D
Yup the issue with this chart is for that extra 100 miles over 240 comes for a premium that would cover the cost of a second car, like a hybrid.
Tesla doesn't have the 7K federal incentive anymore, Rivian and Lucid are not marketed yet. For Mach E you do pay 20K extra for the longer range. A used nissan leaf 2 may be a good deal these days. I'm thinking about swapping battery in my i3 for the 200 mi version. Would still be cheaper than buying a new car and I think there is no better city cruiser than it with its 16Ft turn radius.
 

DT

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Yup the issue with this chart is for that extra 100 miles over 240 comes for a premium that would cover the cost of a second car, like a hybrid.
Tesla doesn't have the 7K federal incentive anymore, Rivian and Lucid are not marketed yet. For Mach E you do pay 20K extra for the longer range. A used nissan leaf 2 may be a good deal these days. I'm thinking about swapping battery in my i3 for the 200 mi version. Would still be cheaper than buying a new car and I think there is no better city cruiser than it with its 16Ft turn radius.

A price column would be interesting (and even a price/range ratio ...). The Fed credit is definitely coming back, at a minimum, $7K (vs. the $7.5K we just got), but lots of talk of more, and/or a supplement scaled additional credit. Also talk of more cars per manufacturer, or even some kind of duration based incentives (so a manufacturer wouldn't "run out" at X units sold).

I'm probably going to lease my next car as well, so I won't worry about long-er term TCO, warranty, etc., 3 years and done. :)

Keep in mind my vehicles are also sort of my hobbie vs. just straight transportation, so with an EV, I'd get something fast and fun like a Model 3 Performance, do up some aftermarket on it (carbon aero, wheels, etc..)
 

DT

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Something like so (this is HAF !):

1620829952737.png
 

SuperMatt

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If you have a place you can regularly charge an EV, any range over 200 is going to be more than enough. Any more is pure luxury; if you decide you want to take long road trips, you'd have to stop less often. 99% of the time, 99% of people will not drive over 200 miles in one day.
 
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If you have a place you can regularly charge an EV, any range over 200 is going to be more than enough. Any more is pure luxury; if you decide you want to take long road trips, you'd have to stop less often. 99% of the time, 99% of people will not drive over 200 miles in one day.
Yup. The formula is

Range * DCA * WP - DC

DCA = Daily Charging access ≤ 1 (where 1 = being able to charge every day, e.g. at home).
WP = Winter penalty ≤ 1 (usually ~0.5-0.8)
DC = daily commute (less than 40 mi for the average american).

The charging rate factor is ignored, as I assume here that you are able to fully charge on a charging session.

So if you have a care with a 240 mile range, only able to charge twice a week and get 10 degree winters, the equation would kinda like this on the worst day:

240 * 0.3 * 0.5 = 36. That's your daily commute that you'd be able to do without much planning forward.

If you lived in Atlanta and could charge at home the same car would allow you to have a 192 mile daily commute including winters.
(240*1*0.8 = 192)
 

SuperMatt

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Yup. The formula is

Range * DCA * WP - DC

DCA = Daily Charging access ≤ 1 (where 1 = being able to charge every day, e.g. at home).
WP = Winter penalty ≤ 1 (usually ~0.5-0.8)
DC = daily commute (less than 40 mi for the average american).

The charging rate factor is ignored, as I assume here that you are able to fully charge on a charging session.
I find that people confuse the charging of an EV with gassing up a car. If you want to make that analogy, imagine that you have a gas pump at home and you’re always starting the morning with a full tank. Even if that tank can only get you 100 miles, if it’s full every morning, you’re generally not going to have any issues.
 
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I find that people confuse the charging of an EV with gassing up a car. If you want to make that analogy, imagine that you have a gas pump at home and you’re always starting the morning with a full tank. Even if that tank can only get you 100 miles, if it’s full every morning, you’re generally not going to have any issues.
I could add battery degradation to that equation too, which was about 25-30% for my care that is about 6 years old. So like 5% a year.
 

SuperMatt

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I could add battery degradation to that equation too, which was about 25-30% for my care that is about 6 years old. So like 5% a year.
I park in an underground garage and the climate is not very cold here, so I’ve had very little degradation in 5 years. I don’t know how that compares to your situation.

One thing to consider: my VW has an 8-year warranty on the battery, and I believe 30% degradation is considered a failure and would allow for a replacement under the warranty.
 
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I park in an underground garage and the climate is not very cold here, so I’ve had very little degradation in 5 years. I don’t know how that compares to your situation.

One thing to consider: my VW has an 8-year warranty on the battery, and I believe 30% degradation is considered a failure and would allow for a replacement under the warranty.
Good thought. Maybe I should get mine checked.
 

DT

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If you have a place you can regularly charge an EV, any range over 200 is going to be more than enough. Any more is pure luxury; if you decide you want to take long road trips, you'd have to stop less often. 99% of the time, 99% of people will not drive over 200 miles in one day.

Yeah, I've done a bit speculative use via ABRP, you know, picked a car, plugged in a few of our common destinations - granted there's some real world factors that aren't part of those estimates - but three of our most common trips using a '21 M3P calculate roughly like:

Home to Universal Studios, ~240 mile round trip, no stop needed, but free charging provided at the resorts (so 120 >> full charge >> 120 miles). Home to our place in The Keys, ~400 miles, one 24 minute stop, and Home to the wife's Dad's house outside of Pittsburgh, one 24-26 minute stop, overnight stay, full charge, another 24-26 minute stop, arrive, and that's ~850 miles. That's also with stopping locations with fairly high densities of charging locations to account for them being busy / unavailable, and good locations for supplies, bathrooms, etc.

My typical operating area? Geez, I could probably go 2 weeks without a charge.

Getting our 50a N6-50 installed tomorrow, and the replacement 40a charger is on the way (though the 4xe will only be charging at 30a ...)
 

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Getting our 50a N6-50 installed tomorrow, and the replacement 40a charger is on the way (though the 4xe will only be charging at 30a ...)

Install guys knocked that right out, they had to come back with the correct receptacle, but it'll all done, looks great, works as expected :D Also got confirmation we __do__ have 200a service.

So this is terrific, we have a 50a, 240v 6-50 outlet on the back wall of the garage (right next to the breaker panel), so when the new charger shows up, I'll have up to 40a charging for the 4xe and any other car that winds up in the garage that needs to be charged :)
 
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It's an interesting conundrum in my view. On the one hand it seems that a hybrid with a petrol engine and around a 30 mile battery range would be perfect for my needs and for most people too. This way I could use it exclusively on battery to run around near home to go shopping and so forth and take advantage of the wonderfully wide parking bays with free charging offered by certain supermarkets in my area.

But, as with everything, one cannot have their cake and eat it too. Hybrids potentially introduce more complexity, weight, reliability questions and service charges. I certainly would not purchase one second hand looking at how they operate. When you set off it will be on battery for most people until they get to a faster dual carriage way road or highway/freeway/motorway. This is when many people will put their foot down to accelerate waking up the petrol engine probably for the first time. The engine is completely cold and needs to kick into action (none of the hybrids from the popular brands currently make any attempts to preheat the engine or oil).

This sounds like a recipe for disaster in the long term to me, yet the manufacturers seem to encourage this sort of driving pattern. To me this is a game purely to reduce their fleet emissions and they obviously do not care what happens to these vehicles once the warranty has expired.

There is also an element of wanting to be tax efficient. With the way car company tax works in the UK, even a hybrid will cost me more than I feel like paying. So I only really have a choice between a 1 tonne pickup truck, or a full EV, for various and boring reasons for this vehicle.

Zero annual road tax, low company vehicle tax, low running and servicing costs are all mighty appealing and have made me truly consider getting an EV for the daily runabout. When I do have to commute it's either a few miles to the train station to get to London, or 90 miles to get to Heathrow Airport. Occasionally I commute about 180 - 200 miles to do some stuff in the "midlands" area of the UK, but this is a trip up on a Monday and a trip back on a Thursday, or Friday. The charging infrastructure already present will meet my needs and it's only going to keep growing.



I do indeed have access to overnight charging and I have considered how I would use the car. I am lucky enough to have a few other cars. This would very be much be the family beater car that I'll not care about where I park and if it gets dinged, or scratched by Joe Moron. I have also played around with a better route planner and an EV like a VW ID.4 would get me to ski resorts in France and Austria with only a few hours extra over an ICE powered vehicle. That would be the longest journeys it would be used for because the thought of taking a nice onto the salted / gritted roads gives me the shivers. Sure, there are real world elements at play, but the majority of such a journey would be in well above freezing temperatures anyway. As long as I can get around 200 miles of range within 30 minutes on a fast charger, or less, I am happy.

I live in a very mild part of the south of England by the coast. We even have palm trees that thrive in the area. I am not too concerned about the cold weather impacts on range.

View attachment 5102

I could probably wait, but I am getting tired of servicing the Nissan, especially at this point, since more and more stuff needs replacing every year.


We have a bit of a soft spot for Hyundai. We had a 2004 Santa Fe 2.7 V6 with offroad white lettered tires that the wife used as the "dirty" car to go the stables and so forth for about 13 years. It was damn ugly, but had a heart of gold, never let us down, and was just as comfortable as something like a Range Rover Sport.
Range Extenders kinda solve some of the issue. My I3 can do 80 extra mile on gas and I can refuel in a min. It doesn't kick in unless you either tell it (battery has to be <80%) or if you're battery is down (<6mi). But it's a small car, fitting 4 people and definitely not enough room for your ski equipment, unless you lay a seat flat reducing the seating capacity to 3.
 
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