ICE Vehicles: General topics

[The-Real-Deal82]

New Hyundais are surprisingly good. Plus they now have plenty of EV experience...unlike Toyota. So Ioniq 5 will be a good car, but no matter how much urge I feel to pull the trigger on a new EV, my wallet always reminds me to wait a little because it's a BAAAAD investment right now.

A chap I know had a Hyundai Ioniq here in the UK and it was quite problematic and the range was inconsistent. He decided to get rid of it after a recall. The local Hereford garage lost its electrical specialists after they walked out and he had a pointless drive down to Bristol to the next nearest dealer to sort it out and had to leave it there and get a 3 hour train journey home. He couldn’t find a garage nearer than northern England who would accept an electric Hyundai as a part ex which is very interesting. I don’t think the technology is quite there yet and the infrastructure certainly isn’t. Charge times are too long too. You need to be able to fully charge a car in the time it takes to refuel really.

If you have a place you can regularly charge an EV, any range over 200 is going to be more than enough. Any more is pure luxury; if you decide you want to take long road trips, you'd have to stop less often. 99% of the time, 99% of people will not drive over 200 miles in one day.

I assume the 99% is private owners and not cars on the road in general? I know our sales teams do more than 200 miles in a day and probably the reason businesses haven’t gone to full electric just yet despite the tax incentives. If I do the trip I am doing next week to see my mum, there and back is just over 200 miles. I’m holding off going down the electric route until it’s forced on us I think.

 

[Huntn]

A chap I know had a Hyundai Ioniq here in the UK and it was quite problematic and the range was inconsistent. He decided to get rid of it after a recall. The local Hereford garage lost its electrical specialists after they walked out and he had a pointless drive down to Bristol to the next nearest dealer to sort it out and had to leave it there and get a 3 hour train journey home. He couldn’t find a garage nearer than northern England who would accept an electric Hyundai as a part ex which is very interesting. I don’t think the technology is quite there yet and the infrastructure certainly isn’t. Charge times are too long too. You need to be able to fully charge a car in the time it takes to refuel really.

I assume the 99% is private owners and not cars on the road in general? I know our sales teams do more than 200 miles in a day and probably the reason businesses haven’t gone to full electric just yet despite the tax incentives. If I do the trip I am doing next week to see my mum, there and back is just over 200 miles. I’m holding off going down the electric route until it’s forced on us I think.

How many hours does it take to charge an EV? I’d think this would mitigate demanding these kinds of vehicles until the batteries are improved. Would they basically outlaw long distant driving?

 

[DT]

How many hours does it take to charge an EV? I’d think this would mitigate demanding these kinds of vehicles until the batteries are improved. Would they basically outlaw long distant driving?

Most of the "EV Only" targets being discussed are still several years out, and that's just manufacturing. I'd imagine the cycle of phasing out the option to own one to be __way__ longer.

In terms of charging, it depends on the charger and the car, but I've done analysis with a Model 3 Performance, using A Better Route Planner, see my post here:

ICE Vehicles: General topics

Hybrid is the near future as far as a standard vehicle. I don’t see all electric cars being standard until there are a ton of infrastructure and battery improvements. Who will sit around waiting for their batteries to recharge? At one point I thought they might be able to swap batteries, but...

talkedabout.com

A Model 3 Long Range does 353 miles, and yes, there are several factors that affect that range, but if it'll do ~90% of that, call it 320 miles, that's a round trip worth of mileage for a huge number of people, and certainly a ton of mileage one way, with one incremental charging stop of ~20-25 minutes, and then one "sleepover" stop for 100% the next morning. The replacement 40a charger I'm getting for the 4xe will charge a TM3 Performance at ~37/miles an hour, that's an overnight charge at home for 315 miles of range .

I've been a very vocal skeptic about an EV, I'm a gearhead, but once you get past the "ICE psychology" and start __really__ thinking about your use cases, you might realize it would work for you. Sure, I can come up with dozens of scenarios where an EV doesn't work, but they either don't apply to me (no home charging) or are some kind of nonsense use (1000+ mile non-sleepover trip).

I was thinking about my local-but-longer-ish driving, like the one local client, they're about 35 miles away, so 70 round to back home. That mileage I could replenish back at home in a couple of hours - and I think that's an important thing to consider: much day-today use is not 100% to empty, it's, 5-25% type consumption. You come home, you plugin, it takes 30-40 seconds, so you're always replenishing your "fuel"

 

[Huntn]

Most of the "EV Only" targets being discussed are still several years out, and that's just manufacturing. I'd imagine the cycle of phasing out the option to own one to be __way__ longer.

In terms of charging, it depends on the charger and the car, but I've done analysis with a Model 3 Performance, using A Better Route Planner, see my post here:

ICE Vehicles: General topics

Hybrid is the near future as far as a standard vehicle. I don’t see all electric cars being standard until there are a ton of infrastructure and battery improvements. Who will sit around waiting for their batteries to recharge? At one point I thought they might be able to swap batteries, but...

talkedabout.com

A Model 3 Long Range does 353 miles, and yes, there are several factors that affect that range, but if it'll do ~90% of that, call it 320 miles, that's a round trip worth of mileage for a huge number of people, and certainly a ton of mileage one way, with one incremental charging stop of ~20-25 minutes, and then one "sleepover" stop for 100% the next morning. The replacement 40a charger I'm getting for the 4xe will charge a TM3 Performance at ~37/miles an hour, that's an overnight charge at home for 315 miles of range .

I've been a very vocal skeptic about an EV, I'm a gearhead, but once you get past the "ICE psychology" and start __really__ thinking about your use cases, you might realize it would work for you. Sure, I can come up with dozens of scenarios where an EV doesn't work, but they either don't apply to me (no home charging) or are some kind of nonsense use (1000+ mile non-sleepover trip).

I was thinking about my local-but-longer-ish driving, like the one local client, they're about 35 miles away, so 70 round to back home. That mileage I could replenish back at home in a couple of hours - and I think that's an important thing to consider: much day-today use is not 100% to empty, it's, 5-25% type consumption. You come home, you plugin, it takes 30-40 seconds, so you're always replenishing your "fuel"

I wonder what the car charging does to the electric bill? I have 3 pool pumps, one runs about 8 hours, another 4 hours daily, a third on occasion to run the water falls and I project they add about $70/month to my electric bill.

 

[SuperMatt]

A chap I know had a Hyundai Ioniq here in the UK and it was quite problematic and the range was inconsistent. He decided to get rid of it after a recall. The local Hereford garage lost its electrical specialists after they walked out and he had a pointless drive down to Bristol to the next nearest dealer to sort it out and had to leave it there and get a 3 hour train journey home. He couldn’t find a garage nearer than northern England who would accept an electric Hyundai as a part ex which is very interesting. I don’t think the technology is quite there yet and the infrastructure certainly isn’t. Charge times are too long too. You need to be able to fully charge a car in the time it takes to refuel really.

I assume the 99% is private owners and not cars on the road in general? I know our sales teams do more than 200 miles in a day and probably the reason businesses haven’t gone to full electric just yet despite the tax incentives. If I do the trip I am doing next week to see my mum, there and back is just over 200 miles. I’m holding off going down the electric route until it’s forced on us I think.

I am an American so I’m basing it on America. You can see the details from 2017 below, and miles driven per day on average have gone down steadily since 2001. In 2017, the average was 29 miles per day. Personally-owned vehicles vastly outnumber “company cars” too, so anything done with business fleets is going to be an outlier.

National Household Travel Survey Daily Travel Quick Facts | Bureau of Transportation Statistics

Daily Travel is a trip from one point to another on a single day.

www.bts.gov

Fully charging a car with current battery tech in 5 minutes is not feasible. And the EV model that was going to try and follow the “gas it up” model never even made a dent in the market. That would be the hydrogen vehicle. Being able to charge at home is much more convenient than gassing up. I just plug it in when I get home and forget about it. Never have to think about looking for a gas station.

The anti-EV road trip argument is a popular one, but most people take very, very few road trips beyond the capacity of an average EV. Even the 200 mile round trip to see grandma - your grandma presumably has electricity at her house? You could plug the car in while you’re there on a simple 120V line and get at least some range back during your stay.

 

[DT]

I wonder what the car charging does to the electric bill? I have 3 pool pumps, one runs about 8 hours, another 4 hours daily, a third on occasion to run the water falls and I project they add about $70/month to my electric bill.

It's pretty easy to calculate, our effective rate is ~$0.10 / kWh so a full charge on our 4xe costs $1.73, and that'll get us about 30 miles around town. Lowest octane (87) at the pump around here is $2.80/gal, so a car getting 30MPG would cost $1.61 more - or - the 4xe is the cost equivalent of ~49MPG.

While keeping mind it's 375HP and 470 lb/ft of TQ

Also, I know a few people that have a TOU (Time Of Use) account, where their off peak is like 30% the standard rate, so the same calculation above the 30 mile charge would only $0.52 - the downside being the on-peak time is 2x the cost, so you have to look at a decent amount of usage history to see if that's an effective billing model (a short review of our data over 2 weeks only showed about a 15-20% cost reduction, but that's without a BEV in the mix).

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I am an American so I’m basing it on America. You can see the details from 2017 below, and miles driven per day on average have gone down steadily since 2001. In 2017, the average was 29 miles per day. Personally-owned vehicles vastly outnumber “company cars” too, so anything done with business fleets is going to be an outlier.

National Household Travel Survey Daily Travel Quick Facts | Bureau of Transportation Statistics

Daily Travel is a trip from one point to another on a single day.

www.bts.gov

Fully charging a car with current battery tech in 5 minutes is not feasible. And the EV model that was going to try and follow the “gas it up” model never even made a dent in the market. That would be the hydrogen vehicle. Being able to charge at home is much more convenient than gassing up. I just plug it in when I get home and forget about it. Never have to think about looking for a gas station.

The anti-EV road trip argument is a popular one, but most people take very, very few road trips beyond the capacity of an average EV. Even the 200 mile round trip to see grandma - your grandma presumably has electricity at her house? You could plug the car in while you’re there on a simple 120V line and get at least some range back during your stay.

I think we are way off being prepared over here and I would say a significant proportion of cars here are not privately owned too. The plug the car in at grandma’s idea works but would be rather unrealistic I think when busting people. The technology needs to improve fast for our 2030 deadline as we’ll need to import a hell of a lot more electricity from France and many more charging points than already exist. Not convinced yet and will hold out as long as reasonably possible [emoji1303].

 

[DT]

. If I do the trip I am doing next week to see my mum, there and back is just over 200 miles. I’m holding off going down the electric route until it’s forced on us I think.

I’d be curious to plot this on ABRP, can you post a start and end location, I mean, I wouldn’t want /or even suggest actual addresses, maybe just like close by store/business or general city/town name?

 

[SuperMatt]

I think we are way off being prepared over here and I would say a significant proportion of cars here are not privately owned too. The plug the car in at grandma’s idea works but would be rather unrealistic I think when busting people. The technology needs to improve fast for our 2030 deadline as we’ll need to import a hell of a lot more electricity from France and many more charging points than already exist. Not convinced yet and will hold out as long as reasonably possible [emoji1303].

Almost every EV owner I’ve talked to started with some level of “range anxiety” as you are feeling. Anybody who got over that hump and bought one found it was unwarranted within the first month.

 

[DT]

Almost every EV owner I’ve talked to started with some level of “range anxiety” as you are feeling. Anybody who got over that hump and bought one found it was unwarranted within the first month.

I've made it there without even owning a BEV yet. Seriously, just experiencing the PHEV, going through the steps to get a charger, reviewing electricity costs - and, assessing our use case, typical destinations, etc., via ABRP.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I’d be curious to plot this on ABRP, can you post a start and end location, I mean, I wouldn’t want /or even suggest actual addresses, maybe just like close by store/business or general city/town name?

Aberdare to Stratford Upon Avon. Lots of hills, stopping and starting with traffic on the newly congested A465. A real battery test.

I’m going to Leatherhead soo too which is even further.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Almost every EV owner I’ve talked to started with some level of “range anxiety” as you are feeling. Anybody who got over that hump and bought one found it was unwarranted within the first month.

I only know a few people with EV’s and they still have that anxiety about range and the planning needed on trips where previously it was straightforward. This is probably why they have an EV and a diesel car as secondary vehicle. A friend of ours has a Tesla Model X and a 14 plate Ford Galaxy for weekends with his family. As I say the infrastructure just isn’t here to solely rely on them yet and the charging time can be too long. I don’t see that changing until you can fully charge a car in under 5 minutes.

 

[DT]

Aberdare to Stratford Upon Avon. Lots of hills, stopping and starting with traffic on the newly congested A465. A real battery test.

I’m going to Leatherhead soo too which is even further.

Oh fun! OK, I entered it into ABRP, the map plot looks the same, here's the trip using an M3P ...

 

[DT]

If you round trip it, i.e., add the starting as the final (making Stratford Upon Avon a "waypoint"), it shows 18% left, no stops:

Same plot but switching to an M3 Long Range (with 18" Aero Wheels):

You make the round trip with almost a __third__ of the charge left.


How about a VW ID.3 ?

 

[DT]

Or if you didn't want any stress on the way home, and wanted to arrive at Stratford Upon Avon with 90% charge, a little 3 minute deviation and 19 minute charge for 7 Euros, and you're GTG

 

[DT]

Holy Smokes, Ford really killed it with the new EV F150, aka, Ford Lightning. Base model for $39K, nicely loaded for $55-60K, optional battery config for 300+ miles, tows 10,000 lbs, has an automatic "frunk" that stores more than most CUVs, can power your house or dozens of tools at a camp / jobsite, optional 15.5" display that can plan charging/range using integrated scale mechanisms. 563HP, 700 lb/ft TQ, 0-60 in ~4.4 seconds

I almost dropped a $100 on a pre-order for absolutely no reason

 

[SuperMatt]

Holy Smokes, Ford really killed it with the new EV F150, aka, Ford Lightning. Base model for $39K, nicely loaded for $55-60K, optional battery config for 300+ miles, tows 10,000 lbs, has an automatic "frunk" that stores more than most CUVs, can power your house or dozens of tools at a camp / jobsite, optional 15.5" display that can plan charging/range using integrated scale mechanisms. 563HP, 700 lb/ft TQ, 0-60 in ~4.4 seconds

I almost dropped a $100 on a pre-order for absolutely no reason

I am so glad to see people other than Elon Musk making really good electric vehicles. I’ve said it before: I love my VW e-Golf. All they really did was take the existing Golf design and replace the drivetrain with a battery and electric motor. It handles really nicely, and looks exactly like a regular Golf, so nobody even knows I’m driving an EV unless they notice there’s no tailpipe.

Compare that to Tesla - expensive, showing-off, or Nissan Leaf - cheaply built, designed to intentionally look “different” so people know you are in the Sierra Club.

The F-150 looks like a truck... not some bizarro world armored vehicle like Elon Musk’s monstrosity. I think the Tesla cyber truck will fail because most truck buyers don’t want to be associated with Tesla’s typical customer base.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[DT]

The F-150 looks like a truck... not some bizarro world armored vehicle like Elon Musk’s monstrosity. I think the Tesla cyber truck will fail because most truck buyers don’t want to be associated with Tesla’s typical customer base.

Just my 2 cents...

I'd say that's a solid $1.00 worth of commentary

Totally agree. This is a big moment: a hugely popular type of vehicle, with very specific capability requirements, under the badge of the most popular truck in the world, and with a design that moves forward while not alienating existing customers.

 

[DT]

Loving our 4xe (PHEV), but ready to add a BEV, so this is exciting:

U.S. Senate panel advances EV tax credit of up to $12,500

The U.S. Senate Finance Committee advanced legislation on Wednesday that would boost electric vehicle tax credits to as much as $12,500 for EVs that are assembled by union workers in the United States.

www.reuters.com

EV tax credits jump to $12,500 in latest legislation -- with a catch

GM would be the big winner with the updated regulations, while Tesla would again receive some federal tax credits.

www.cnet.com

This happens, I'm ordering an M3P

 

[DT]

Took the Mustang to an appointment today, it's been weeks since I've driven it, it was filthy inside and out, so spent some time cleaning it up early, before the sun/heat hit.