Trans-People Participating In Sports

Huntn

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  • Do biological males have an inherent biological advantage? This has sparked tons of debate in Conservative Land, and conservatives have decided that this is a fact. Is it?
  • We do see both male and female sports leagues. Why are they seperate, is it historical gender based, double standards or as a rule do males have a biological muscular advantage?
  • And in the process of changing ones biological sex are muscular advantages or disadvantages mitigated?

Based on my uneducated perspective on the topic, my impression is that many males would have a physical advantage in certain sports based on heavy reliance on muscle mass. However I am not implying that no woman can compete in male sports. Thoughts?

Brought over from the Olympic thread:
It's not meant to be anti-transgender. We are simply talking about 2 different things.

On one hand there is the equity of transgenders being allowed to compete. Then there is the equity of the competition. Those are two separate issues whether the trans community wants to accept it or not.

Here is a report from Sports Scientists breaking it down.


And I am sure it will be rebutted by another study showing the opposite. Which means we simply don't know 100% one way or the other.

I do not mean to offend the trans community. But I also have a daughter who was a fairly elite HS swimmer (would have swam in college had a case of scapular dyskinesis not sidelined her career) and I simply believe in fairness. I simply do not believe the competition would be fair. That does not make me anti-trans, that simply means I have an opinion that is1) different than some, and 2) one that is not clouded by emotion. I realize some may disagree and some may actually hate me for it.
 
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B S Magnet

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  • Do biological males have an inherent biological advantage? This has sparked tons of debate in Conservative Land, and conservatives have decided that this is a fact. Is it?
  • We do see both male and female sports leagues. Why are they seperate, is it historical gender based double standards or as a rule do males have a biological muscular advantage?
  • And in the process of changing ones biological sex are muscular advantages or disadvantages mitigated?

Based on my uneducated perspective on the topic, my impression is that many males would have a physical advantage in certain sports based on heavy reliance on muscle mass. However I am not implying that no woman can compete in male sports. Thoughts?

Briught over from the Olympic thread:

STOP SAYING “TRANSGENDERS”.

You are welcome to say “trans people”.

But we have already had this discussion — twice — once on PRSI, and once on here. No, I’m sorry… twice.

LET. IT. DIE.
 

Eric

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STOP SAYING “TRANSGENDERS”.

You are welcome to say “trans people”.

But we have already had this discussion — twice — once on PRSI, and once on here. No, I’m sorry… twice.

LET. IT. DIE.
I get the need to be PC but running around here policing everyone's adjectives and pronouns is getting tiresome.
 

B S Magnet

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I get the need to be PC but running around here policing everyone's adjectives and pronouns is getting tiresome.

IT’S DEEPLY OFFENSIVE AND DEHUMANIZING. This isn’t fucking rocket science and it sure ain’t “““PC”””. It’s about showing some basic human respect.

And if you’re not on board with that basic level of respect, Eric, then you may as well be moderating PRSI.

I mean, do you want trans people and other GSMs to feel welcome here, or do you want your own cisnormative comfort? You can’t have both in good conscience.
 

Huntn

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STOP SAYING “TRANSGENDERS”.

You are welcome to say “trans people”.

But we have already had this discussion — twice — once on PRSI, and once on here. No, I’m sorry… twice.

LET. IT. DIE.
Thanks for your calm measured response. :D
  • I said I was uneducated.
  • Please point me at the discussion here about trans-people and sports.
  • Is “transgender“ politically incorrect? Please provide a link or your perspective. It it can be shown that “transgender” is politically incorrect in the community, I’m more than happy to change the title.
  • This topic is not going to die until a majority of citizens understand it better and talking like this does not make a case, just illustrates your anger.
 

B S Magnet

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Thanks for your calm measured response. :D
  • I said I was uneducated.

Yes, but you didn’t search the previous discussions before opening the topic.

  • Please point me at the discussion here about trans-people and sports.

I linked to two of them them above in my first reply to you. Take the time to read them and the linked citations within each if you wanna break into yet-another discussion about this.

  • Is “transgender“ politically incorrect? Please provide a link or your perspective. It it can be shown that “transgender” is politically incorrect in the community, I’m more than happy to change the title.

Transgender is an adjective. Like “cisgender” or “Black” or “gay”, it describes a person (in other words: it’s not kosher to be saying “the cisgenders”, “the Blacks”, or “the gays”… or “the transgenders”). Please read the linked article I posted in replying to Eric’s remark.

  • This topic is not going to die until a majority of citizens understand it better and talking like this does not make a case, just illustrates your anger.

So what you’re saying as a cisgender person is I shouldn’t feel in any way upset or less welcome here as a trans woman — just as I shouldn’t feel upset on MR’s PRSI, whenever cisgender people make lazy, small-minded, and armchair-transphobic takes as if they’re completely benign statements with no weight or bias or contempt whatsoever. OK. Sure.

I mean… do y’all even wanna try to do the most basic work of understanding and respecting the marginalized experiences of other people, or y’all just comfortable with your own biases and couched contempt for that other? Are none of y’all gonna go Google or DuckDuckGo what other trans people have published on how to address and recognize trans people with level respect? Cos right now I don’t see a material difference between MacRumors’ PRSI and TalkedAbout. And I don’t think y’all want to be associated with that cesspit.
 
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Renzatic

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Men do naturally have more muscle mass than women. It's an inevitability of testosterone, which men's bodies genereally produce more of. So, a pre-op trans person who hasn't undergone any hormone therapy will have a large natural advantage in women's sports.

This advantage will go away for anyone post op, or who has undergone an extended period of hormone therapy. Their muscle mass will decrease to roughly female average for their frame and height

So, is it fair to prevent trans women from competing in sports against cis women if they haven't undergone any transitional work. Is it fair to cis women to allow trans women to compete against them when they have a natural strength advantage? What's the correct answer here?
 

Huntn

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IT’S DEEPLY OFFENSIVE AND DEHUMANIZING. This isn’t fucking rocket science and it sure ain’t “““PC”””. It’s about showing some basic human respect.

And if you’re not on board with that basic level of respect, Eric, then you may as well be moderating PRSI.

I mean, do you want trans people and other GSMs to feel welcome here, or do you want your own cisnormative comfort? You can’t have both in good conscience.
Maybe you can calm down enough to discuss. According to this article

Refer to people as “transgender men,” “transgender women,” “transgender individuals,” “transgender people” ― never “transgenders.” “Transgender” should be used to modify a noun ― never as a standalone.

I will update the title, but I’m honestly telling you, I don’t understand why the term transgender is offensive, not only that but deeply offensive and dehumanizing vs transgender male or trans people other than just saying it is, because I think there is more at play than about correct English.
 

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[Cisgender] Men do naturally have more muscle mass than women. It's an inevitability of testosterone, which [cisgender] men's bodies genereally produce more of. So, a pre-op [sic] trans person who hasn't undergone any hormone therapy will have a large natural [cis] advantage in women's sports.

This advantage will go away for anyone post op [sic], or who has undergone an extended period of hormone therapy.

You are literally covering no new ground here. Try and read through what I wrote exhaustively last week on this very topic, and read the linked citations within. Cheers.
 

Eric

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Men do naturally have more muscle mass than women. It's an inevitability of testosterone, which men's bodies genereally produce more of. So, a pre-op trans person who hasn't undergone any hormone therapy will have a large natural advantage in women's sports.

This advantage will go away for anyone post op, or who has undergone an extended period of hormone therapy. Their muscle mass will decrease to roughly female average for their frame and height

So, is it fair to prevent trans women from competing in sports against cis women if they haven't undergone any transitional work. Is it fair to cis women to allow trans women to compete against them when they have a natural strength advantage? What's the correct answer here?
This is how I see it too, there's a natural physiological difference. Without some sort of physical augmentation there will never be an equal playing field. When it comes to competition involving these attributes I don't see how they can properly compensate for it.
 

Huntn

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Yes, but you didn’t search the previous discussions before opening the topic.



I linked to two of them them above in my first reply to you. Take the time to read them and the linked citations within each if you wanna break into yet-another discussion about this.



Transgender is an adjective. Like “cisgender” or “Black” or “gay”, it describes a person (in other words: it’s not kosher to be saying “the cisgenders”, “the Blacks”, or “the gays”… or “the transgenders”). Please read the linked article I posted in replying to Eric’s remark.



So what you’re saying as a cisgender person is I shouldn’t feel in any way upset or less welcome here as a trans woman — just as I shouldn’t feel upset on MR’s PRSI, whenever cisgender people make lazy, small-minded, and armchair-transphobic takes as if they’re completely benign statements with no weight or bias or contempt whatsoever. OK. Sure.

I mean… do y’all even wanna try to do the most basic work of understanding and respecting the marginalized experiences of other people, or y’all just comfortable with your own biases and couched contempt for that other? Are none of y’all gonna go Google or DuckDuckGo what other trans people have published on how to address and recognize trans people with level respect? Cos right now I don’t see a material difference between MacRumors’ PRSI and TalkedAbout. And I don’t think y’all want to be associated with that cesspit.
  • There is no dedicated Trans thread here, just comments in other thread topics.
  • I say blacks and whites all the time, not cool, really?
  • Imo you should not be upset because I started a dedicated thread on the topic, the more I/we understand about it, the better... the sooner it is no longer a topic.
  • With this you are being over emotional and prejudicial: : I mean… do y’all even wanna try to do the most basic work of understanding and respecting the marginalized experiences of other people, or y’all just comfortable with your own biases and couched contempt for that other?

    And why do you think I started this thread to pick on trans people?? I am supportive of transgender individual issues. You need to calm yourself down and be constructive, I want your perspective, but not your attacks or hysteria.
 

Renzatic

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You are literally covering no new ground here. Try and read through what I wrote exhaustively last week on this very topic, and read the linked citations within. Cheers.

I read it, yet fail to see where we're grossly disagreeing.

Look at the raw physicality here. A woman who comes to identify as trans well after puberty, and has yet to undergo any hormonal replacement therapies is physically male, with all the physical advantages that entails. Should they be allowed to compete in women's sports the instant they out their identity, or should a period of hormone therapy be a prerequisite?
 
U

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  • Do biological males have an inherent biological advantage? This has sparked tons of debate in Conservative Land, and conservatives have decided that this is a fact. Is it?
  • We do see both male and female sports leagues. Why are they seperate, is it historical gender based, double standards or as a rule do males have a biological muscular advantage?
  • And in the process of changing ones biological sex are muscular advantages or disadvantages mitigated?

Based on my uneducated perspective on the topic, my impression is that many males would have a physical advantage in certain sports based on heavy reliance on muscle mass. However I am not implying that no woman can compete in male sports. Thoughts?

Briught over from the Olympic thread:
The title does make my eyes hurt too, but I know there's no malice on your end.
Transgender Athletes Participating in Competitive Sports should work better.

1. Let's humanize our fellow humans.
2. Trans people should definitely participate in sports, because it's necessary for health.
3. I expressed it elsewhere, even if we shave off societal connotations of gender, biological sex is still largely a continuous variable which we dichotomize to M/F, which always comes with loss of nuance. That nuance is human lives.
4. We don't know exactly how persistent muscle weight or muscle attachment to bone, bone density etc. on the level of pro sports. We are learning about it now. It will greatly depend on the age of transition too so nobody should expect a cut-and-dry answer.
5. The priorities in descending order should be health, safety, fairness. People think fairness is simple in pro level sports, but it's hella complicated. Like us people in the USA being upset by cannabinoids being considered illegal performance enhancers, but also having the power to push for changes in the policy, yet not thinking about other nations that don't have access to such (or other) performance enhancers would be at an immediate disadvantage in the rise of such policy updates.
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What I dislike about pro sports is that it's mostly unhlealthy as fuck. So when people are fixating on the spectacular ultraelite athletes, the remaining 95% who do it for health maintenance are being ignored even though the impact and relevance of the super average athlete is much greater.
 

B S Magnet

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  • There is no dedicated Trans thread here, just comments in other thread topics.

Yes. A simple search would have given you some hits on trans people and athletics.

  • I say blacks and whites all the time, not cool, really?

Not cool, really, no. There are Black people and there are white people.

  • Imo you should not be upset because I started a dedicated thread on the topic, the more I/we understand about it, the better... the sooner it is no longer a topic.

The thing is: it isn’t up to someone like you to decide for someone like me what is upsetting for someone like me.

It isn’t up to someone like you or anyone else to tell someone like me how I should feel when cisgender people like yourself choose voluntarily to speak wilfully and ignorantly about people like me, and/or speak disparagingly and negatively about people like me.

It’s not up to someone like you to decide whether that wilful ignorance or disparaging commentary should be unsettling for someone like me.

Lastly, it’s also not up to someone like you to tell someone like me how and when someone like me should “educate”, for free, cisgender people like you who won’t even do their own search for trans people far more eloquent than me who’ve written exhaustively on these subjects over the past ten years. It’s all out there if someone like you is willing to try.

  • With this you are being over emotional and prejudicial: : I mean… do y’all even wanna try to do the most basic work of understanding and respecting the marginalized experiences of other people, or y’all just comfortable with your own biases and couched contempt for that other?

Thanks for the sexism and for the continued tone-policing — rather than stopping to pause and reflect on how your own conduct in this exchange may actually be inflammatory at its root.


  • And why do you think I started this thread to pick on trans people?? I am supportive of transgender individual issues. You need to calm yourself down and be constructive, I want your perspective, but not your attacks or hysteria.

You started this thread without an expectation that trans people would actively stand up and say, “Hold up here.” And now that this has come to pass, you’re backtracking defensively and indignantly rather than realizing, “Hey, y’know, maybe I overstepped on a subject which perhaps I don’t really understand and which I didn’t exactly start with a gesture of wanting out of respect to understand, if trans people reading it might be willing to voluntarily shed some light.”

I let you know how you overstepped. I also know how nearly all of you are aware I was invited to TA because of the PRSI trans athlete shitshow. So in a way, to open a topic like this, whether you intended or not, is like rubbing salt into that not-so-distant wound.
 

B S Magnet

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Look at the raw physicality here. A woman [cis? trans?] who comes to identify as trans [man? woman?] well after [first] puberty, and has yet to undergo any hormonal replacement therapies is physically […] male, with all the physical advantages that entails. Should they be allowed to compete in women's sports the instant they out their identity, or should a period of hormone therapy be a prerequisite?

As I wrote, exhaustively, this question has already been addressed and answered, including by regulatory bodies and medical bodies.
 

Renzatic

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As I wrote, exhaustively, this question has already been addressed and answered, including by regulatory bodies and medical bodies.

According to what you wrote, it depends upon the sport being considered. Though from this quote...

Does this mean a trans woman who competes in, say, weightlifting, has an advantage over her cis competitors in the same weight class for having experienced an endogenous first puberty? If the parts of her body being used for that competition — namely, her muscles — have lost their mass, then probably not so much. (Note the qualifier here is mass, not nuclei, so let’s not keep shifting the goalposts here.) Fixed skeletal height also isn’t an advantage. One evidentiary case example relates to weightlifter Lauren Hubbard, because it happened to Lauren Hubbard: in 2018, she broke her elbow during competition (check out that picture and clip). This was because her muscles, which in the past might have provided the torsional strength to counteract direct stress placed onto her bones, were diminished from before the start of her second puberty. She didn’t factor this into the mix, and so she tried to lift at a weight she may have lifted successfully before second puberty, but her body was operating with a new set of rules. Consequently, she paid for it in an injury which nearly ended her aspirations. But she went through the work of rehabilitation, re-learning, and being coached on that re-learning effort. As it is, Lauren was ranked below the top three women — all cis, I might add — of her weight class during Olympic qualifiers.

Your example quotes the fairness of trans women competing post hormonal therapy, which is something no one is arguing here. But if she had yet to experience her 2nd puberty, would she still be able to compete with other female weightlifters fairly?
 

B S Magnet

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Your example quotes the fairness of trans women competing post hormonal therapy, which is something no one is arguing here. But if she had yet to experience her 2nd puberty, would she still be able to compete with other female weightlifters fairly?

1) Not all trans people, especially with the new gen of folks, have two puberties. Some, like the 8yo trans kid whose mum is a close friend of mine, will only experience one consensual puberty.

2) Lauren Hubbard, since you brought up weightlifting, began her second puberty almost a decade ago, and her body has changed substantially because of that. Not only has her body changed, but both the regulatory body overseeing women’s weightlifting and also the IOC concur that Lauren has more than met the temporal and serological requirements to compete alongside fellow competitors of the same gender.
 
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