Transgender, a Challenge for the Conservative Mindset

[mollyc]

Yes, I agree that transitioning before puberty is the best for "fairness" in athletics, but I don't think it's best from a decision perspective for an 8-9 year old to make that kind of choice.

And the problem with transitioning later isn't even just about testosterone levels, but height and wingspan and hip development; men's narrower hips typically allow better ergonomics for motion and are therefore more efficient at a lot of sports, even if muscle quality and hormone levels are similar with women.

As I said previously, I don't inherently have a problem with inclusion in club sports, but when you get to things like titles and scholarships, there are too many unknowns to just throw all the trans women with biological women and then just hope for the best... that best isn't easily defined yet and biological women have worked too hard for too many years just to be now potentially ousted by physical males with a lot of hormone therapy.

 

[Nycturne]

I think one suggestion was that anyone who switches genders before puberty is good to go, those who transition after puberty are not. Is that a fair approach?

As a society, we don’t have good enough information on HRT to properly administer it to trans women, let alone make an clear determination as to what is “fair” here. What I want are better studies. And I would love it if we weren’t so bloody focused on just how trans women play into this, and ignoring the other half of the trans community.

In many states, it is illegal to transition before puberty. It’s also an ethical question: are children ready to make such a momentous decision that early in their life?

Therefore, these transgender bans for college athletics that require a fairly long time between transitioning and competing are de facto bans on transgender athletes competing.

This does create a double-bind of sorts. Which is the point of bathroom bans and the like as well (in order to create a urinary leash). Make it such that no matter what the trans person does or attempt to do, it will be the wrong answer in the eyes of society and/or the law. And it goes for transition in general, too.

But I’ll point out of the obvious to the part of your comment in bold: The whole point of puberty blockers in the first place is to give more time for a decision on hormones. And at young ages before puberty would rear it’s head at all, social transition is easy and inherently makes no physical changes. Transition isn’t a single event, but a process, so to describe it as a momentous decision I think underscores the ignorance involved here. There are many off-ramps along the way (and stopping HRT is always an option), and so many delays in getting access to treatment, that this smacks me as a form of straw-man, as it’s not representing reality, but some perceived thing that seems to only exist in the minds of people debating the topic.

But at the end of the day, I do ask: at what point do we cross the line between concern and meddling with someone’s right to self-determination and bodily autonomy?

Honestly, there’s a reason I have avoided this thread for the most part, it’s too depressing to think that this is what non-trans people get hung up on when discussing the trans community.

 

[Huntn]

From the standpoint of fair competition, yes it is. That is FINA's position.

But at the same time, allowing a per-pubescent person to transition is not something I am comfortable with. We as a society think that adolescents at this age aren't mature enough to drive, vote, buy alcohol, buy weed, enter into contracts, etc. Yet we think they are mature enough to make a decision that will affect them the rest of their lives. I don't think so.

I‘m undecided on this point. There are reports of young children who seem certain they are in the wrong gender body at a young age.

What makes it the wrong body? Their brain has decided.
Might they change their mind later? Have their been any cases were a pre-puberty child has gone though a gender transition and then changed their minds? can’t say. Ideally if puberty creates the significant change in development, the sooner it is known, the better at least if they want to participate in gender based teams.

 

[Herdfan]

I‘m undecided on this point. There are reports of young children who seem certain they are in the wrong gender body at a young age.

What makes it the wrong body? Their brain has decided.
Might they change their mind later? Have their been any cases were a pre-puberty child has gone though a gender transition and then changed their minds? can’t say. Ideally if puberty creates the significant change in development, the sooner it is known, the better at least if they want to participate in gender based teams.

Two things. Did their brain decide, or are they simply trying to please a parent or other adult. That is a valid question.

And yes, some have gone back to their biological sex. It is called de-transitioning. Google some stories and make your own determination.

Back to the competition side. Rebecca Soni is a Gold medalist breaststroker. She is a really great swimmer. But if you look at her feet, she has almost paddles below her ankles. It is no wonder she is fast, especially in breaststroke. She was born with a gift just like a basketball player who is 6'10".

But then you look at Thomas, who has feet that were developed for a male body. In swimming, the "catch" or amount of water you can grab or push during your stroke is very important. We are taught to swim thinking out hands are doing the pulling, when in reality, it is our hands, forearms, upper arms etc. Same with legs, but due to the way the stroke works, large feet are more important than large hands. This gives Thomas an unfair physical advantage over the girls no matter how much testosterone blockers are taken. Compared to the girls, Thomas has mini fins.

 

[SuperMatt]

As a society, we don’t have good enough information on HRT to properly administer it to trans women, let alone make an clear determination as to what is “fair” here. What I want are better studies. And I would love it if we weren’t so bloody focused on just how trans women play into this, and ignoring the other half of the trans community.



This does create a double-bind of sorts. Which is the point of bathroom bans and the like as well (in order to create a urinary leash). Make it such that no matter what the trans person does or attempt to do, it will be the wrong answer in the eyes of society and/or the law. And it goes for transition in general, too.

But I’ll point out of the obvious to the part of your comment in bold: The whole point of puberty blockers in the first place is to give more time for a decision on hormones. And at young ages before puberty would rear it’s head at all, social transition is easy and inherently makes no physical changes. Transition isn’t a single event, but a process, so to describe it as a momentous decision I think underscores the ignorance involved here. There are many off-ramps along the way (and stopping HRT is always an option), and so many delays in getting access to treatment, that this smacks me as a form of straw-man, as it’s not representing reality, but some perceived thing that seems to only exist in the minds of people debating the topic.

But at the end of the day, I do ask: at what point do we cross the line between concern and meddling with someone’s right to self-determination and bodily autonomy?

Honestly, there’s a reason I have avoided this thread for the most part, it’s too depressing to think that this is what non-trans people get hung up on when discussing the trans community.

In a nation of 330 million people, one transgender athlete won a national collegiate competition one time. And the reaction is to ban them all. Seeing this reaction, one would think that, instead, male athletes were lining up by the thousands at Antifa-funded sex-change hospitals so they could dominate women’s athletics.

In the end, the biggest proponents (not saying ALL proponents) of “protecting women” by banning transgender athletes were the same ones passing “bathroom bills,” fighting against gay marriage, and firing people for being gay or transgender. Oh, and they are all for banning abortion too. Yep, they surely care a LOT about women’s rights.

 

[Herdfan]

In a nation of 330 million people, one transgender athlete won a national collegiate competition one time.

Do you honestly think it would have been the last?

Yes, it was the first at the collegiate level, but there are plenty of stories about trans women winning HS state championships.

 

[SuperMatt]

Do you honestly think it would have been the last?

When did I say that?

 

[mollyc]

yes one transgender wins a title. but if it isn’t addressed fairly, and early on, biological women will lose to more and more trans women over time.

it is better to be too cautious early on and open more later. because once the horse is out of the barn it’s hard to put back. unless it’s abortion.

 

[thekev]

I think one suggestion was that anyone who switches genders before puberty is good to go, those who transition after puberty are not. Is that a fair approach?

I would be concerned with that putting pressure on something that should only be a medical decision.

 

[SuperMatt]

yes one transgender wins a title. but if it isn’t addressed fairly, and early on, biological women will lose to more and more trans women over time.

it is better to be too cautious early on and open more later. because once the horse is out of the barn it’s hard to put back. unless it’s abortion.

When they closed schools down to protect against COVID, many people said the mental problems due to the lack of socializing may have been almost as bad as getting an actual disease.

But when it comes to allowing transgender women and girls to be part of a sports team that reflects their own gender, winning a sporting competition is suddenly more important than allowing these kids to socialize in a way that supports who they are. Playing youth (and college) sports is a healthy social activity that can be good for the kids involved.

We had a fair system with some controls in place. But because a single transgender women actually won something, suddenly the system is unfair and we need to block them all?

So let’s further ostracize an already marginalized group of people because winning a swimming race is much more important. Maybe I’m not competitive enough or something, but I just don’t get the outrage.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

..........

So let’s further ostracize an already marginalized group of people because winning a swimming race is much more important. Maybe I’m not competitive enough or something, but I just don’t get the outrage.

If you were (born) a woman, you might see matters a little differently.

 

[SuperMatt]

If you were (born) a woman, you might see matters a little differently.

I imagine I’d see many things differently, indeed.

 

[Herdfan]

If you were (born) a woman, you might see matters a little differently.

Or had a daughter who was a competitive athlete.

When did I say that?

This sentence says it happened once, but implies it won't happen again.

In a nation of 330 million people, one transgender athlete won a national collegiate competition one time.

I also framed my post as a question so you could clarify further. But you didn't, you went straight to challenging me.

 

[mollyc]

When they closed schools down to protect against COVID, many people said the mental problems due to the lack of socializing may have been almost as bad as getting an actual disease.

But when it comes to allowing transgender women and girls to be part of a sports team that reflects their own gender, winning a sporting competition is suddenly more important than allowing these kids to socialize in a way that supports who they are. Playing youth (and college) sports is a healthy social activity that can be good for the kids involved.

We had a fair system with some controls in place. But because a single transgender women actually won something, suddenly the system is unfair and we need to block them all?

So let’s further ostracize an already marginalized group of people because winning a swimming race is much more important. Maybe I’m not competitive enough or something, but I just don’t get the outrage.

I really feel like you are not actually listening to some of us. You are so busy being outraged that you aren't considering our position. Not even...."I don't agree with you, but I see why you'd think that."

No one here, in this thread (I'm ignoring the "real world" where I know it happens)...the people of this board (women, parents of daughters), has said trans women should never again participate in sports. Not one person on this thread.

The "fair system" that has been in place has separated people by their biological sex. Including trans people in sports is a relatively new phenomenon, really within the past ten years, and even with that, it hasn't been enough people to make a difference in sports. I have specifically said that trans athletes should be allowed to compete right now, as long as there is no potential of taking a monetary or a "titled" position from girls who have never had to compete with a biological male. There are girls in Connecticut right now who are losing scholarship money to trans athletes. These girls feel defeated; they feel marginalized.

It is not fair to say it is all just hormone based and that as long as testosterone levels are low everyone should just play together happily. There are physical differences--bone, vascular, muscle-- that are not changed by hormone therapy.

Look, I'm not a sportsy person at all....but my husband and I have spent thousands and thousands of dollars year over year paying for sportsing for our daughter (and son). We know elite level high school female swimmers who may be eligible for scholarships based on their swimming. Those scholarships would represent real money to their families for tuition. But as it stands now, our friends may lose out on that money due to biological males who would outperform them.

Every human has their own challenges in life, and we all make choices given our strengths and weaknesses. In the future, there may be a more settled science for athletic performance, but right now, allowing trans women compete for money and titles that rightly belong to biological women is not fair. You want to go out and play pickup basketball or club soccer?? Have at it, and have fun. But the entire point of elite athletics is to prove you are the best... as we are heading, women will never again be allowed to be the best.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Very well said, @mollyc.

 

[Alli]

From the standpoint of fair competition, yes it is. That is FINA's position.

But at the same time, allowing a per-pubescent person to transition is not something I am comfortable with. We as a society think that adolescents at this age aren't mature enough to drive, vote, buy alcohol, buy weed, enter into contracts, etc. Yet we think they are mature enough to make a decision that will affect them the rest of their lives. I don't think so.

This post belongs in the Roe thread. You just made a perfect argument for allowing children to have abortions.

 

[SuperMatt]

This sentence says it happened once, but implies it won't happen again.

It implies nothing of the sort.

 

[SuperMatt]

I really feel like you are not actually listening to some of us. You are so busy being outraged that you aren't considering our position. Not even...."I don't agree with you, but I see why you'd think that."

No one here, in this thread (I'm ignoring the "real world" where I know it happens)...the people of this board (women, parents of daughters), has said trans women should never again participate in sports. Not one person on this thread.

The "fair system" that has been in place has separated people by their biological sex. Including trans people in sports is a relatively new phenomenon, really within the past ten years, and even with that, it hasn't been enough people to make a difference in sports. I have specifically said that trans athletes should be allowed to compete right now, as long as there is no potential of taking a monetary or a "titled" position from girls who have never had to compete with a biological male. There are girls in Connecticut right now who are losing scholarship money to trans athletes. These girls feel defeated; they feel marginalized.

It is not fair to say it is all just hormone based and that as long as testosterone levels are low everyone should just play together happily. There are physical differences--bone, vascular, muscle-- that are not changed by hormone therapy.

Look, I'm not a sportsy person at all....but my husband and I have spent thousands and thousands of dollars year over year paying for sportsing for our daughter (and son). We know elite level high school female swimmers who may be eligible for scholarships based on their swimming. Those scholarships would represent real money to their families for tuition. But as it stands now, our friends may lose out on that money due to biological males who would outperform them.

Every human has their own challenges in life, and we all make choices given our strengths and weaknesses. In the future, there may be a more settled science for athletic performance, but right now, allowing trans women compete for money and titles that rightly belong to biological women is not fair. You want to go out and play pickup basketball or club soccer?? Have at it, and have fun. But the entire point of elite athletics is to prove you are the best... as we are heading, women will never again be allowed to be the best.

I understand your opinion on the issue. But this is an extremely rare occurrence. Your are more likely to be struck by lightning than to be a transgender woman who wins a national competition. I believe the “threat” of transgender women taking over women’s sports is greatly exaggerated.

Here is another perspective on the issue:

Transgender swimmer Lia Thomas speaks out about backlash, future plans

Penn swimmer Lia Thomas spoke one-on-one with ABC News' Juju Chang.

goodmorningamerica.com

In response to critics who say Thomas transitioned in order to win more swimming medals, she reiterated that is not the case.

"Trans people don't transition for athletics," she said. "We transition to be happy and authentic and our true selves. Transitioning to get an advantage is not something that ever factors into our decisions."

Thomas said she does not see it as an acceptable option to prevent transgender people from competing in sports, or to limit them to competing only against each other or themselves, like in a separate swimming lane, for example.

"In addition to not allowing the full athletic experience, that's incredibly othering to trans people who already face immense discrimination in other parts of our lives," she said. "To then again have this discrimination in sports and be, like, 'Oh, OK, you can swim, but only over there, like in that lane.' It's very othering."

 

[Huntn]

Two things. Did their brain decide, or are they simply trying to please a parent or other adult. That is a valid question.

And yes, some have gone back to their biological sex. It is called de-transitioning. Google some stories and make your own determination.

Back to the competition side. Rebecca Soni is a Gold medalist breaststroker. She is a really great swimmer. But if you look at her feet, she has almost paddles below her ankles. It is no wonder she is fast, especially in breaststroke. She was born with a gift just like a basketball player who is 6'10".

But then you look at Thomas, who has feet that were developed for a male body. In swimming, the "catch" or amount of water you can grab or push during your stroke is very important. We are taught to swim thinking out hands are doing the pulling, when in reality, it is our hands, forearms, upper arms etc. Same with legs, but due to the way the stroke works, large feet are more important than large hands. This gives Thomas an unfair physical advantage over the girls no matter how much testosterone blockers are taken. Compared to the girls, Thomas has mini fins.

Could there be women with duck feet?

I reject the idea that a parent as any kind of routine occurance, would pressure their child to switch sex just because of the parents preference. There is too much negativity in society about such things. I imagine in just about all cases, it would be the child pushing.

 

[mollyc]

I honestly appreciate the fact that Lia Thomas transitioned to be authentic to herself. I would hope it wouldn't be for any other reason. But having lived her life as a male, and having reached adulthood, I would think she would also appreciate that she does have an unfair advantage over her new competitors.