Trump’s Second Impeachment Hearings 2021

theSeb

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You forgot to mention that quote was from Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels. But hey, can’t make any Nazi comparisons. Keep things civilized.

In a semi-related note, it’s being speculated that Trump’s appearance at the Alamo yesterday was a thinly veiled sign to his militant supporters given the historical military and Mexican fighting significance of the Alamo.
I didn’t feel the need to state the obvious in educated company.
 

Scepticalscribe

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You forgot to mention that quote was from Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels. But hey, can’t make any Nazi comparisons. Keep things civilized.
The thing with the Nazi comparison is that they are so often overdone, or over-used, and that cheapens, demans, and devalues the power of the insult.

And, sometimes, it is excessive; not every political outrage merits describing someone as a Nazi.

So, there is a element of intellectual laziness - and, historical sloppiness - in reaching for a term that has almost beocme a cliché.

Moreover, in one of the places where I have worked - Georgia (Caucasus Georgia, that is) the first (not the last) political insult that was reached for in heated political debate was "Hitler", or "Nazi".

Having said all of that, there are occasions where the use of this term to describe a contemporary action or thought, is entirely appropriate.
In a semi-related note, it’s being speculated that Trump’s appearance at the Alamo yesterday was a thinly veiled sign to his militant supporters given the historical military and Mexican fighting significance of the Alamo.
That is why I asked here, yesterday, which Alamo? Or, rather, whether Mr Trump had headed to, and arrived at, the correct, or the right, Alamo.
 
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Chew Toy McCoy

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A look back at member's speeches before the impeachment vote.... this one will stick in my head. Cori Bush didn't come to mince words.


Joe Walsh recently explained Jim Jordon after working closely with him in Congress. They used to be good colleagues fighting for the same things until Trump. Basically Jim Jordon has a frat boy jock brain that only operates on one level. “My team good. Other team bad. My coach/President always right. Period.”
 

theSeb

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The thing with the Nazi comparison is that they are so often overdone, or over-used, and that cheapens, demans, and devalues the power of the insult.

And, sometimes, it is excessive; not every political outrage merits describing someone as a Nazi.

So, there is a element of intellectual laziness in reaching for a term that has almost beocme a cliché.

Moreover, in one of the places where I have worked - Georgia (Caucasus Georgia, that is) the first (not the last) political insult that was reached for in heated political debate was "Hitler", or "Nazi".

Having said all of that, there are occasions where the use of this term to describe a contemporary action or thought, is entirely appropriate.

That is why I asked here, yesterday, which Aamo? Or, rather, whether Mr Trump had headed to, and arrived at, the correct, or the right, Alamo.
Sometimes it’s best to just call a spade a spade. The extraordinary number of parallels are impossible to ignore. I’ve read interesting opinions from political scholars over the years about how we should not call Trump a fascist quite yet and grew increasingly frustrated. Even if we just consider the microcosm of MR, the brazenly open racism is unlike anything I’ve ever seen before and I spent the majority of my youth in a country that perfected institutionalised apartheid as it tried to open its eyes staring at the rising sun of a possibly different future. I find it frustrating that we seem to learn nothing from history.

E9A7DC6C-1CD4-4E00-B309-943C8FD4F3DB.jpeg
 

lizkat

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Of interest there are some strong anti-Trump statements coming out of the GOP but I imagine this as a fringe move not a broad movement. I was encouraged to hear Mitch McConnell say something like he’d be pleased, but who knows how serious and honest, versus a calculated statement this is. Liz Cheney who has never liked Trump has hammered him verbally.

The point here though is that this is the Congressional leadership of the GOP, such as there actually is any of it left in the traditional American sense of that, phrase, getting on the record as in favor of the impeachment. They are not whipping the vote per se but they are giving permission to vote conscience. Kevin McCarthy is a lackey of the pro Trumpers in the House. Liz Cheney is #3 there. McConnell has carefully had someone let the press know he favors impeachment so he's signaling no retribution at campaign time from the establishment wing of the party.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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The thing with the Nazi comparison is that they are so often overdone, or over-used, and that cheapens, demans, and devalues the power of the insult.

And, sometimes, it is excessive; not every political outrage merits describing someone as a Nazi.

So, there is a element of intellectual laziness - and historical sloppiness - in reaching for a term that has almost beocme a cliché.

Moreover, in one of the places where I have worked - Georgia (Caucasus Georgia, that is) the first (not the last) political insult that was reached for in heated political debate was "Hitler", or "Nazi".

Having said all of that, there are occasions where the use of this term to describe a contemporary action or thought, is entirely appropriate.

That is why I asked here, yesterday, which Aamo? Or, rather, whether Mr Trump had headed to, and arrived at, the correct, or the right, Alamo.


I agree it's overused, and especially by the historical lazy. There are a lot of little boys who cried Hitler. I have faith there will be at least 1 quality documentary made about the startling similarities to the Hitler and Trump administrations and those who supported them. (Please God, don't let it be Michael Moore).
 
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Scepticalscribe

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Sometimes it’s best to just call a spade a spade. The extraordinary number of parallels are impossible to ignore. I’ve read interesting opinions from political scholars over the years about how we should not call Trump a fascist quite yet and grew increasingly frustrated. Even if we just consider the microcosm of MR, the brazenly open racism is unlike anything I’ve ever seen before and I spent the majority of my youth in a country that perfected institutionalised apartheid as it tried to open its eyes staring at the rising sun of a possibly different future. I find it frustrating that we seem to learn nothing from history.

View attachment 2697
I agree it's overused, and especially by the historical lazy. There are a lot of little boys who cried Hitler. I have faith there will be at least 1 quality documentary made about the startling similarities to the Hitler and Trump administrations and those who supported them. (Please God, don't let it be Michael Moore).
In this instance - the resemblance of some the characteristics of the administration and person of Mr Trump - (after some initial reluctance, and distaste), I think it (a comparison with elements of Fascism, or Nazism) entirely warranted.

I merely think it is intellectually lazy, and sloppy history, (and this also devalues the power of the term when it is used properly as an insult, or description) if it is casually, and lazily, and carelessly, tossed around without much thought, when other terms, or adjectives, or metaphors might more exactly and precisely express what needs to be said.

And he’s impeached
Excellent!
 
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Chew Toy McCoy

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In this instance - the resemblance of some the characteristics of the administration and person of Mr Trump - (after some initial reluctance, and distaste), I think it (a comparison with elements of Fascism, or Nazism) entirely warranted.

I merely think it is intelectually lazy, and sloppy history, (and this also devalues the power of the term when it is used properly as an insult, or description) if it is casually, and lazily, and carelessly, tossed around without much thought, when other terms, or adjectives, or metaphors might more exactly and precisely express what needs to be said.


Excellent!

I think we can blame the Seinfeld soup Nazi.

Not to beat a dead horse, and we seem to be in agreement about Trump, but with Trump there is a lot of predictable “then this will happen” that actually does happen when using Hitler’s rise as a comparison. So it’s far more then just an act or two in the moment of that act. Also there are also similar things Trump would have done but couldn’t because our other branches of government managed to hold him back.
 

Thomas Veil

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I watched some of the arguments but had to turn it off after a while. It was nauseating.

The Republicans' defenses consisted of:
  • It's too quick, what about hearings?
  • Democrats are hypocrites because they say mean things to Mitch McConnell in restaurants
  • Portland!
  • Let's focus on unity
  • What's the point?
To which I answer:
  • The entire world saw what happened. What will hearings prove that we didn't see with our own eyes?
  • Poor sweet babies
  • Yeah, defacing federal buildings is wrong, but tell me how the protesters (Antifa? Proud Boys? Neither?) threatened to take over a branch of government in the service of trying to overturn an election
  • Try saying this to any grieving widow. "I'm sorry your husband was killed, ma'am, but instead of prosecuting the killer, let's talk about healing, okay?"
  • The point is the man is evil and nucking futz and needs to be out of there.
Matt Gaetz...gaaah. he's among the worst of them. He's such an asshole. He's only got two speeds: smug and self-righteous.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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I watched some of the arguments but had to turn it off after a while. It was nauseating.

The Republicans' defenses consisted of:
  • It's too quick, what about hearings?
  • Democrats are hypocrites because they say mean things to Mitch McConnell in restaurants
  • Portland!
  • Let's focus on unity
  • What's the point?
To which I answer:
  • The entire world saw what happened. What will hearings prove that we didn't see with our own eyes?
  • Poor sweet babies
  • Yeah, defacing federal buildings is wrong, but tell me how the protesters (Antifa? Proud Boys? Neither?) threatened to take over a branch of government in the service of trying to overturn an election
  • Try saying this to any grieving widow. "I'm sorry your husband was killed, ma'am, but instead of prosecuting the killer, let's talk about healing, okay?"
  • The point is the man is evil and nucking futz and needs to be out of there.
Matt Gaetz...gaaah. he's among the worst of them. He's such an asshole. He's only got two speeds: smug and self-righteous.

To add to your response list, if we can't impeach a president for this then what can we impeach them for? What's the future deterrent if nothing is done?

I like how some Republicans think this is just about what he said just prior to storming the capitol, as if his supporters were just standing there and went "Wait. What did he just say?? I haven't heard about this before! That's not right! Let's roll!"

If they believe that then they'd probably also believe that Jim Jones welcomed new members into his congregation with a paper cup, labeled baggie of cyanide, and a note that said "Drink when instructed."
 

Scepticalscribe

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I think we can blame the Seinfeld soup Nazi.

Not to beat a dead horse, and we seem to be in agreement about Trump, but with Trump there is a lot of predictable “then this will happen” that actually does happen when using Hitler’s rise as a comparison. So it’s far more then just an act or two in the moment of that act. Also there are also similar things Trump would have done but couldn’t because our other branches of government managed to hold him back.

Seinfeld soup Nazi?

You've lost me.

(I'm not American, so many culturally specific references go right over my head.)

Anyway, - if last week (January 6) we thought that this was both both grotesquely comical and profoundly ugly, it now appears in a far more sinister light.

The strangely well equipped insurrectionists, the provision of detailed and accurate maps, zip ties (hm), panic buttons that somehow didn't work, police support and national guard support that was denied or inexplicably not provided, advance tours........methinks that plausible deniability is becoming more difficult by the day.
 

SuperMatt

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thekev

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Seinfeld soup Nazi?

You've lost me.

(I'm not American, so many culturally specific references go right over my head.)

Anyway, - if last week (January 6) we thought that this was both both grotesquely comical and profoundly ugly, it now appears in a far more sinister light.

The strangely well equipped insurrectionists, the provision of detailed and accurate maps, zip ties (hm), panic buttons that somehow didn't work, police support and national guard support that was denied or inexplicably not provided, advance tours........methinks that plausible deniability is becoming more difficult by the day.

It's a pretty old cultural reference, from the 1990s. The premise was that a particular character served really great soup, yet maintained an absurdly strict level of control over transactions within his restaurant, arbitrarily banning anyone who dared to question him. Here's the first clip. The overall episode and subsequent references build up to this a bit more.

 

Thomas Veil

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The strangely well equipped insurrectionists, the provision of detailed and accurate maps, zip ties (hm), panic buttons that somehow didn't work, police support and national guard support that was denied or inexplicably not provided, advance tours........methinks that plausible deniability is becoming more difficult by the day.
A guy on MSNBC is saying even though the Secret Service, Capitol police et al are reassuring everyone that they have beefed up security to meet any violent protests, all these agencies are not sure who within their internal organization they can trust.

Suppose you had specific plans on how to cover access points. What if a Trump sympathizer passes that information on to the Three Percenters, allowing them to counter-plan?

The same guy says the FBI and others are deeply concerned about this. Who can they trust?

Oh yeah...internal political threats are not confined to books and movies anymore.
 
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