Ukraine taking it to Russia
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Ulenspiegel
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Well, I would not be happy. Firstly, because it's a war, secondly:
nobody knows who fired. You can't exclude that it was a "false flag" action to gain sympathy and support at home.
nobody knows who fired. You can't exclude that it was a "false flag" action to gain sympathy and support at home.
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Very well said and I agree completely with you about this.
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For the war to end, Russia has to feel pain. This embarrassment helps that.
And there is no evidence it is a false flag.
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Yes, we mustn’t take sides when genocidal invaders are warring with a country led by a Jewish ”Nazi,” right?
Eric
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I agree we should be cautious about how we receive this. At the same time it's unrealistic to expect Ukraine to basically sit back and take it without mounting an offensive if given the opportunity, if this is indeed the case it could mark a turning point.
shadow puppet
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Personally, I'd prefer that this pain take the form of even more robust economic sanctions and further diplomatic isolation.
Agree with @Ulenspiegel: Firstly, on such a report, I would like to see independent corroboration.
Secondly, some (males) in the media seem to love the thrill and excitement of war, of military conflict; I'd rather see some de-escalation, rather than further escalation of a military conflict.
Moreover, - and thirdly - Russia - the current administration - has a long (and sorry, not to mention sordid) history of arranging "false flag" incidents; you may recall that one occurred (but was called out) at the very beginning of this recent conflict, and it was thought that they reached for this tactic during the Chechen conflict.
And this strikes me as exactly the sort of thing the Russian authorities would attempt just now, to galvanise public opinion in support of the war, with the war going disastrously badly, casualties mounting, (Russian boys may be dead and buried in Ukraine, but their mothers are still informed that they died, although the "where" - the location - of their death may still be a little opaque) and domestic public opinion - with sanctions biting and the economy collapsing - possibly less enthusiastic about this war than may be publicly reported by the state controlled media.
Anyway, this story (that it is a Russian "false flag" incident is something I would prefer to see definitively discounted, before cheering on Ukrainian air assaults on Russian territory).
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Ukraine isn’t denying it was them (not confirming it, either), but if it were a false flag they would have said something like they’ve done every other time a false flag was allegedly imminent.
As for your libelous comments about men loving the thrill and excitement of war, the war has to end, and the only way for it to end acceptably is for Ukraine to win. Russia has to find it too painful to continue, and they have to withdraw completely from Ukraine, including the eastern territory it’s occupied all this time. Anything else just means Putin will go for the other former SSRs next, and then move on to the former Warsaw Pact countries. Appeasement never works, nor do nebulous calls for deescalation.
Ulenspiegel
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Like there is no evidence that it was executed by VSU (Вооруженные силы Украины).
If you feel the urge to take sides you have to consider all facts and realize that the coin has two sides.
And what about the genocide in Ukraine (Donbas) from 2014 to 2022 for the sake of an objective reality?
Zelenskyy would not be the first "Jewish Nazi", may I remind you of Field Marshal Erhard Milch and General der Flieger Helmuth Wilberg. Have a look at them:
And to make it clear: Nazism incorporates NOT ONLY fervent antisemitism BUT scientific racism, and the use of eugenics into its creed.
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Not sure why you feel the need to spout Russian propaganda. Zelenskyy is not a nazi. He lost family in the holocaust, just as I did. He didn’t commit any genocide. And even if you could come up with some believable theory about something bad that Ukraine did, it doesn;t justify anything that Russia is doing.
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Yoused
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Vlad's premise seems to center on a Ukrainian Guard unit called the Azov Battalion, which uses pagan symbology in their crest ("pagan" is apparently a very bad thing). Azov stymied him eight years ago at Mariupol, so they are a prickly hair up his sensitive area.
He claims they are government sanctioned nazis. Azov claims that their alt-White contingency amounts to 10~20%, which, if true, would make them less nazi than the aggregate civilian US Police force. But, there are nazis in Ukraine, and they defeated decent Russian soldiers, so Vlad is mad. Or, maybe, Vlad is just mad.
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yep.
BTW, the fact that vlad can just make shit up is more evidence that this is no false flag. He doesn’t need a false flag.
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What has this to do with the fact that both @Ulenspiegel and I have expressed doubt that this was an Ukrainian operation.
That is not Russian propaganda, and nor does it serve to justify anything that Russia is doing to suggest that the Ukrainians didn't carry out this attack, but, rather, that the Russians may have done so - rather, it is offering an opinion that this story may not quite as it seems.
Possiby because it was a more credible military target; possibly because he is quite utterly indifferent to possible Russian casualties and costs (economic, human, military, political) incurred by this war.
If this is true, (that the Ukrainians launched this attack in Russian territory), it would be a very marked departure from their stance (military, political, diplomatic) and in how they have fought this war, so far, which is to stress that this is a defensive war, fought to preserve and protect Ukrainian independence in the face of an outrageous invasion.
Any offensive moves on the part of the Ukrainians to date have taken the form of expelling, or repulsing, Russian attacks on Ukrainian territory. Not attacking installation in Russia, no matter how tempting.
And, it is unlikely that there would be much western support for such a move.
Moreover, most telling and most relevant of all, per the Guardian, while the Russians have accused the Ukrainians of this attack, the Ukrainians say that they didn't do it:
"A top Ukrainian security official has denied accusations by Russia that Ukraine was behind an attack on an oil depot in the Russian city of Belgorod, Reuters reports.
Speaking on national television, Ukraine’s Security Council secretary, Oleksiy Danilov, said:
For some reason they say that we did it, but according to our information this does not correspond to reality."
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Ukraine says "not us"
"For some reason they say that we did it, but according to our information this does not correspond to reality," Security Council Secretary Oleksiy Danilov said on Ukrainian national television.
Earlier, Ukrainian defence ministry spokesman Oleksandr Motuzyanyk said he would neither confirm nor deny a Ukrainian role. "Ukraine is currently conducting a defensive operation against Russian aggression on the territory of Ukraine, and this does not mean that Ukraine is responsible for every catastrophe on Russia's territory."
Earlier, Ukrainian defence ministry spokesman Oleksandr Motuzyanyk said he would neither confirm nor deny a Ukrainian role. "Ukraine is currently conducting a defensive operation against Russian aggression on the territory of Ukraine, and this does not mean that Ukraine is responsible for every catastrophe on Russia's territory."
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Exactly.
And, if Ukraine says "not us", well, then, I am very much inclined to take them at their word.
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They are dancing around it in their various statements.
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An incomprehensible post, as I don't know what you are attempting to say, infer, suggest with these.....words.
Nobody on any of these threads is supporting Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
What we are saying is that this story needs to be treated with considerable caution and no small amount of scepticism, for a variety of reasons.
