Ukraine taking it to Russia

Citysnaps

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Still, one nuclear blast can mess up a whole afternoon.

I think some people view small, say 1 kiloton, tactical/battlefield nuclear weapons as being relatively insignificant. Not realizing that's equivalent to roughly 2 million pounds of TNT.

Off the top of my head, I have no concept of the volume of 2 million pounds of anything is. And in the case of TNT, the destructive power. And then there's the radiation.
 

Yoused

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I think some people view small, say 1 kiloton, tactical/battlefield nuclear weapons as being relatively insignificant. Not realizing that's equivalent to roughly 2 million pounds of TNT.

Off the top of my head, I have no concept of the volume of 2 million pounds of anything is. And in the case of TNT, the destructive power. And then there's the radiation.
It is somewhat more complicated than mere blast yields. A 1Kt weapon will totally vaporize anything in its blast radius, will incinerate anything not too far outside its blast and will subject anyone just a little farther out than that to a lethal dose of gamma radiation, which may have a delayed fatality rate farther out. On top of that, theatre nuclear weapons omit the blast jacket, reducing their tons-of-TNT yield in favor of a high neutron flux, which is nigh impossible to shield for and has a immediate/delayed fatality range similar to gamma radiation: kills people but leaves buildings. Then, of course, there is the fallout.
 

Cmaier

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It is somewhat more complicated than mere blast yields. A 1Kt weapon will totally vaporize anything in its blast radius, will incinerate anything not too far outside its blast and will subject anyone just a little farther out than that to a lethal dose of gamma radiation, which may have a delayed fatality rate farther out. On top of that, theatre nuclear weapons omit the blast jacket, reducing their tons-of-TNT yield in favor of a high neutron flux, which is nigh impossible to shield for and has a immediate/delayed fatality range similar to gamma radiation: kills people but leaves buildings. Then, of course, there is the fallout.

Given Ukraine’s proximity to Russia, fallout alone is a pretty good reason for Russia to keep its powder dry. But *shrug.*
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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I am not being critical of your post, That said, we the human species, especially those armed with nuclear ICBMs are really in a tricky, undesirable position. This is our fate and we will survive, or we won’t.

  1. We can do nothing letting an asshole with nukes in his back pocket rampage over a neighboring country, murdering and destroying while doing nothing in fear of a nuclear exchange.
  2. We can restrict trade and finances to Russia and hope it does not escalate.
  3. We can provide Ukraine with arms and Intel and hope it does not escalate.
  4. We can send NATO into Western Ukraine and ease the Russian aggressors out, hoping it does not escalate into a wholesale nuclear Armageddon.
What do you choose? Right now, I choose number 2&3.

My unconfirmed impression is that NATO/the West is providing Ukraine with not only arms but a constant stream of Intel and if this causes WWIII, what other option do we have?

And part of me wants to say Fuck It, send NATO into Ukraine. We can’t live in a world ruled by ass holes with nukes. It’s our burden to bear, and maybe we would survive It. I have to ask what makes survival worthwhile? In the meantime: ;)



What I was mainly saying is the news, or it seems like CNN the most, needs to stop reporting how deeply we are involved at every opportunity. It serves no purpose other than to piss off Putin further. Keep doing what we are doing and STFU about the details.
 

Macky-Mac

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I suspect that the Russians assume we're way more involved than we actually are......and that over here, the general public assumes we aren't as involved as we actually are.

Putin finds himself in a situation that's different than he calculated........something that seems to be very common in warfare. But I'm of the opinion that Putin is totally uninterested in suicide by nuclear war.

If the Russian push in the Donbas fails to be a big success, then perhaps this will deteriorate in to more of an ongoing war of attrition that might drag on and on, and that might actually lead to EU/NATO sending some troops into Ukraine at some point.

But as long as the fighting stays in Ukraine, I suspect there's very little chance of it escalating into nuclear war
 
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AG_PhamD

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My theory... Either of two possibilities.
1) Like the Moskva, unprofessionalism of the crew (and captain) not being at battle stations 24/7 - though that's hard to fathom after the recent and easily sinking the Moskva.
2) The Ukraine military received significant assistance from another country spoofing/jamming the ship's defensive systems (or supplying valuable technical information), coordinated with the timing of the missile launch. Not so coincidentally news sources reported that British RC-135 Rivet Joint SIGINT/ELINT surveillance aircraft have been flying loops in the Black Sea.

Given how Russia’s military has performed thus far, I wouldn’t be surprised if number one was the case. Plus, it’s my understanding generally speaking any engagement decisions have to go up the chain for approval. I have heard on US destroyers, if you have a low flying missile incoming you have as little as 10-20 seconds to identify the missile and initiate an intercept.

If the Russians aren’t well trained in identifying such targets and hem and haw about if something on the radar is a threat and/or have to seek approval from someone higher up the chain, then the clock might be up by the time they get hit.

Great point about the electric warfare too. Reportedly two E-3A were also in the area as well as a Global Hawk drone that spent quite a bit of time surveilling the immediate area for quite some time. I’m not sure what the range is of jammers or if the Global Hawk has jamming capabilities but it seems like a possibility. I would think the Russians would know if they were getting jammed and possibly have alternative tracking methodologies such as IRST- though the utility of that can vary with weather. I’m not sure how their defensive missiles work either, but our SeaRAM missiles have radar, infrared, and electro-optical, RF detection sensors to get around potential counter measures.

I didn’t realize NATO had so much activity going on in the Black Sea. I suppose an issue for Russian ships in international waters, such as with the Moskova who was allegedly distracted by Ukrainian drones, they might be very cautious about engaging since it could belong to a non-Ukrainian military ie the US.

There is some debate as to whether the Makarov was hit, Russia has been denying the claims and a fake video was released. But there seems to be an awful lot activity going on in its surrounding airspace.

Ukraine reportedly did ”destroy” a Russian landing ship with a TB-2 drone with footage to back up the claims. I question if the ship is indeed destroyed, more likely heavily damaged which I suppose is just the same.

I’m not sure I understand why, particularly when it comes to open ocean, but Russia seems to be having a bit of difficulty reliably detecting and engaging these TB-2 drones. They’re not exactly small, not particularly stealthy, and have a large EM signature. At least on land they can fly low to avoid radar. Early on in the war I read because they travel so slow (70-120 knots) compared to more conventional military drones (ie Reaper, Global Hawk- 300-400mph) they were not being recognized as targets. But you’d think they’d learn their lesson by now.
 

AG_PhamD

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Honestly, I am 99% sure (4) would be fine - if Russia’s nukes are anything like their conventional forces, they’d likely never launch succesfully anyway. And Putin knows what happens to Russia - and to him - if he tries it. That said, the costs of being wrong are really really really high, so as long as (2) and (3) are working, and they seem to be, no need to go to (4) right now.

Russia certainly has questionable maintenance when it comes to their military, but I suspect of all things, nuclear ICBM maintenance is the least likely to be skimped on. Russia also learned their lesson with submarine quality and maintenance long ago, now making very capable machines. Ballistic submarines are easily the most destructive weapon ever made. And I certainly would not underestimate their missile technology, its among the best- in a lot of cases better than our own.

Heck, for the past 20+ years American Atlas III and V rockets having been using Russian RD-180 engines (Ironically these Atlas family launch vehicles are derived from Atlas ICBMs created to destroy Russia). These engines use oxidizer rich staged cycle (aka closed cycle) combustion. I’ll spare the technical discussion but will say there are huge technical hurdles and American engineers in the 90’s thought this engine design was impossible and literally did not believe the Russians had the technology working let alone the performance. The RD-180’s were 10% more efficient than similar open cycle engines, which is huge. In fact Russia had been using oxidizer rich staged cycle engines since the 1950’s.
In the Cold War the US focused on global power projection and air dominance, while Russia focused on missiles and air defense. The US had the benefit of launching attacks from Europe, but for Russia to attack the US, ICBMs were really the only practical solution. To defend from NATO aircraft, surface to air missiles and accompanying radars were heavily invested in. Such tech was less of a priority for the US.

Russia also had to have a weapon to destroy aircraft carriers i.e. the P1000 anti-ship missile found on the Moskova- 1000lb conventional (or 350kt nuclear) warheads with a range of 350-500 miles at Mach 2.0. We don’t have anything close. Plus, since the 1970’s(!) their anti-ship missiles automatically coordinate attacks with each other- I’m not even sure we have such a system today.

Anyways, when they have 6000 nuclear warheads total and 1500 deployed, many could fail and yet there would still be plenty to destroy whatever countries they want.

That said, I’m not too concerned about nuclear war. I’d be more concerned about chemical weapons. I believe Russia is only boasting about their nuclear weapons to try to intimidate the West, which honestly worked to some extent particularly in the beginning of the war. Our media is obsessing about it primarily because they have nothing else to talk about and fear sells.

Secondly, I think Putin is sensible enough to know if he uses nukes In Ukraine the world will not standby and much of his population may not be happy with him risking a global nuclear war. At best the entire world except Iran and North Korea cut all ties with Russia and they become essentially West North Korea.

Third, Putin could order a nuke but there’s a whole chain of command to carry out the strike. I think it’s very possible his generals would refuse, not to mention others responsible for carrying out the strike. There have been multiple cases on the Soviet and US side where due to errors false threats were perceived and nuclear strikes could have been and almost were made… but the person with their hand on the trigger refused.
 

Colstan

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What is the evidence that the Pentagon overestimated Russia’s strength? It seems to me they knew of the weaknesses but kept that info to themselves. When analysts and journalists were freaking out and predicting doom unless there was a no-fly zone, the Pentagon was executing an effective strategy. They broadcasted Russia’s moves before they happen. Supplied Ukraine with lightweight inexpensive weapons that neutralized Russian armor. Provided the best intelligence and logistical support in the world. They seemed confident that they wouldn’t need to “directly” interfere in order to stop Putin.
Well, if you believe Newsweek or this MSN article, internal sources were saying that Kyiv would fall within 96 hours before being overtaken by the Russian military. The Pentagon isn't going to say that directly at an official press briefing. Zelenskyy being offered a one-way trip out of his homeland by Biden is further indication of that. You don't evacuate friends if you believe they have the upper hand. Watching troop movements from satellite is one thing, knowing how effective that force will be in the field is another. They missed the boat on this and that needs to be analyzed, not to assign blame, but to plan for the future.

The Russians obviously thought this too. On the Russian side, the most obvious failing was Moscow's inability to prepare for a sustained conflict. Like most dictatorships, they concentrate on flashy new experimental projects, to show off their technological might. It's the boring grunt work behind the lines that gets the job done. The fact that the Russians are moving munitions by hand shows how ill-prepared they were. I haven't seen the use of forklifts, transport pallets, or containerized logistics in any significant number on their side. Instead of trying to manufacture a handful of stealth fighters that they can't afford, the Russians should be making transport and freight a priority. This should be what Vlad is showing off at the Victoria Day parade:

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Cmaier

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Well, if you believe Newsweek or this MSN article, internal sources were saying that Kyiv would fall within 96 hours before being overtaken by the Russian military. The Pentagon isn't going to say that directly at an official press briefing. Zelenskyy being offered a one-way trip out of his homeland by Biden is further indication of that. You don't evacuate friends if you believe they have the upper hand. Watching troop movements from satellite is one thing, knowing how effective that force will be in the field is another. They missed the boat on this and that needs to be analyzed, not to assign blame, but to plan for the future.

The Russians obviously thought this too. On the Russian side, the most obvious failing was Moscow's inability to prepare for a sustained conflict. Like most dictatorships, they concentrate on flashy new experimental projects, to show off their technological might. It's the boring grunt work behind the lines that gets the job done. The fact that the Russians are moving munitions by hand shows how ill-prepared they were. I haven't seen the use of forklifts, transport pallets, or containerized logistics in any significant number on their side. Instead of trying to manufacture a handful of stealth fighters that they can't afford, the Russians should be making transport and freight a priority. This should be what Vlad is showing off at the Victoria Day parade:
I read an interesting thing from a US military logistics guy where he was looking at photos of the Russians moving around portable missiles or rockets. Each rocket was in a wooden box. He was explaining how, from the shape of the box, he could tell that the Russians would have problems. Apparently you need to channel air around the crates because the missiles will overheat while sitting around and stop functioning. So the US figured out some time ago how to stack them in a special way, and eventually switched to fancier crates that have built in air channels so they didn’t need to do that, but the Russians are still doing it 1970’s-style.
 

Colstan

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I read an interesting thing from a US military logistics guy where he was looking at photos of the Russians moving around portable missiles or rockets. Each rocket was in a wooden box. He was explaining how, from the shape of the box, he could tell that the Russians would have problems. Apparently you need to channel air around the crates because the missiles will overheat while sitting around and stop functioning. So the US figured out some time ago how to stack them in a special way, and eventually switched to fancier crates that have built in air channels so they didn’t need to do that, but the Russians are still doing it 1970’s-style.
After a major natural disaster, somewhere in the world, what is the first thing you see? A U.S. Navy aircraft carrier arriving with relief supplies. That's great for humanitarian reasons, but also good training in peace time to move freight. The U.S. military has gotten this down to a science and makes it look easy, when in fact, it's really hard. Supplying a large force for a sustained conflict over months or years isn't a simple undertaking, particularly if you're a country that depends on a fluctuating commodity like oil to keep your economy running.

Regardless, I think a lot of folks underestimated Ukraine's capabilities, certainly the Russians, so I'm not putting too much blame on the U.S. government. Ukraine has been planning this since 2014. They've built an effective, modern, mechanized, and well supplied military. They understand the role of drones, hit and run tactics, and distractions (like the current attacks on Snake Island) to great affect. Zelenskyy is saying they are going to hunt down the butchers of Bucha, and considering how effective the Ukrainians have been, I believe him. This isn't some backwater village in Chechnya where the Russians can commit atrocities and get away with it.

Also, it helps to have friends in high places. Other than U.S. intelligence, I think the Ukrainians have informants from inside the FSB and/or GRU. You don't lose at least nine generals, with two more unconfirmed, along with dozens of high-ranking officers, without someone on the inside. No drone or satellite is going to tell you where Rear Admiral Borscht is stewing.
 

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Chew Toy McCoy

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Now it's being reported that US intelligence was quintessential in Ukraine locating and killing Russian generals. Again, why does the average global citizen need to know this? This is obviously a leak by some maniacs in US intelligence who either see all-out war increasing the size of their wallet or see war as a great tool to distract from or quiet domestic issues. Either way, fuck them. These are details we don't need to know as facts as the war is still in progress.
 

AG_PhamD

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Back when the Soviet Union was around, the US had a somewhat similar semi-automatic system called ERCS (Emergency Rocket Communication System) to ensure all ICBMS could be launched if our leadership and infrastructure were taken out. That system was inactivated at the fall of the Soviet Union.
I’m not sure it was so much inactivated as it was converted to operate over satellite communication. It’s actually interesting to think if a system like ERCS could return given the threat of anti-satellite weapons. Clearly the first asset to be lost in a true WWIII scenario are satellites.

Also, it helps to have friends in high places. Other than U.S. intelligence, I think the Ukrainians have informants from inside the FSB and/or GRU. You don't lose at least nine generals, with two more unconfirmed, along with dozens of high-ranking officers, without someone on the inside. No drone or satellite is going to tell you where Rear Admiral Borscht is stewing.

While I’m sure there are spys involved (on all sides), as I understand it the biggest problem has been Russian’s poor communications systems- relying on Ukraines cell phone network, unencrypted or poorly encrypted radios. One would have expected Russia to decimate Ukraines communication systems on day one, but clearly they needed it for themselves. If they can identify a Russian general who is using his phone, he can then be geolocated. Ukraine allegedly has a specific team tasked with finding senior leadership, not only to disrupt operations but to kill troop morale.

Plus given how Russias military is commanded very much from the top, that means more senior leaders need to be closer to the front lines, especially if things aren’t going to plan.
 

Colstan

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I know that, in another thread, Elon Musk isn't very popular in this forum. Remember, people are complex, and regardless of his actions in the social media realm, SpaceX's support for Ukraine has been invaluable, with Musk now receiving some ire from Dmitry Rogozin, the professional loudmouth in charge of what's left of the Russian space program. Russian state-sponsored hackers took down all of Ukraine's pre-war SATCOM terminals. This is where Elon Musk and SpaceX stepped in, with a Starlink constellation. SpaceX has has deftly repelled Russian attacks and kept Ukraine's communication lines open. Ukraine has been using encrypted point-to-point communications provided by Starlink without substantial ground infrastructure, allowing units behind Russian lines to communicate, with little to no footprint for Russian hackers to exploit. (Meanwhile, Russian generals are dying during open lines Friday.) Essentially, Musk and SpaceX are giving Ukraine the bandwidth of the United States with zero investment before the war, which the Russian military has no answer for. Plus, Russia is getting absolutely hammered from all sides with terabytes falling from the sky, which is a nice taste of schadenfreude after all of the Russian cyber antics in recent years. This is the first war where a relatively affordable, privately funded, satellite-based infrastructure has taken such a prominent role in shaping the battlefield in real time. It's a glimpse of modern warfare in the twenty-first century, whereas the Russians are still trying to fight the last century's Soviet-style wars with large columns of heavy machinery and moving munitions by hand.
 

Yoused

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I wanted to see video of Putin's May ninth speech, untranslated in order to get an idea what his physical health might be like, as there have been some rumors about how it looks like he has this, or that, health problem. Here is a video from BBC Russian Service that shows a comparison of Vlad and Volodymyr giving addresses on May ninth (though the latter is to a camera). There is no English in this video, but I post it so that we can get an idea what it is about Zelenskyy that inspires his nation. The symbolism is not subtle.

 
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Yoused

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Looks like the Russians are somewhat dissatisfied with the service they are receiving from their Ukrainian hosts and are now seriously taking that job upon themselves.

 

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Whatever issues Russia’s military has, it’s clear Putin is doing a piss poor job selling the war to the troops. They’re not buying the reasons and are not inspired by him.
 
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