Will the UK put the death nail in the trickledown economics myth?

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Liz Truss. Seriously, the stones on this woman. It’s like she was raised to do tax cuts for the rich and did it the second she had the opportunity, current economic reality be damned. As somebody succinctly put it, under her plan the banks would have to borrow money to give to the rich.

So, she’s out and her complicit party is in shambles. Will the rest of the capitalism above all else countries take note?

 

[lizkat]

Liz Truss. Seriously, the stones on this woman. It’s like she was raised to do tax cuts for the rich and did it the second she had the opportunity, current economic reality be damned. As somebody succinctly put it, under her plan the banks would have to borrow money to give to the rich.

So, she’s out and her complicit party is in shambles. Will the rest of the capitalism above all else countries take note?

Don't know about how capitalism will fare in general but as far as UK goes, the FT ran a piece quoting reaction from abroad to the resignation of Liz Truss, i.e., a few quotes from spokesmen for EU countries. They were about as one might expect, focused not on Truss nor possible successors, but all indicating desire for "stability" in the UK and so also with respect to ongoing negotiations picking up where left off w/ respect to the fact that BoJo had not finished implementing Brexit.

"Desire for stability" is code for replace a Tory with another one for now, and it better be widely acceptable.

Leaving Brexit aside, I should think the UK person in the street today would just like someone to please get on with making it possible to buy food and heat for the winter... and what the banks want now is just for the markets to stop crashing whenever some tone-deaf Tory opens mouth about possibility of salvaging some of the original plans of Ms. Truss (or, of some of her original cabinet, and they were not all even on same page).

How that all translates, one could think, is that the Tories will somehow manage to put off a general election, which they and everyone else realize right now would probably finish that party, even if plenty don't want a Labour government either.

So a compromise pick from the Tories lies ahead, which at this point won't even seem awkward since every institution in the UK is screaming for an end to chaos. Probably someone like Sunak, the former chancellor.

I did see one piece that said even BoJo could end up back in the PM slot... but had that at 10-1 odds... I quit reading at that point, figuring I'd wandered into clickbait territory and anyway my oatmeal was ready.

 

[Arkitect]

What we in the UK need is a General Election.

End of.

Period.

 

[lizkat]

What we in the UK need is a General Election.

End of.

Period.

For sure... but, don't you think the powers that be (not just Tory honchos) are doing all possible to prevent it?

Otherwise seems to me that Sunak might not be leading the pack to replace Truss.

Some of the Tory leaders are surely holding nose to suggest him as successor... because they know that if taking the general election route now, they'd go down the tubes? But privately they'd prefer someone with more of Truss' penchant for tax cuts even if they realize that's what lit up the commercial and political bonfires to begin with. Did I read that the whip resigned? If not, I can't think why not, what a mess of cats to be herding just now.​

Well I admit only to reading of all this, not living through it, and I don't envy you and fellow citizens.

 

[Edd]

As an American, misery loves company. Thanks UK! For being kinda fucked up!

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

So in the UK is the Tory party the party for "I may be money poor, but I'm hate rich" voters?

 

[lizkat]

So in the UK is the Tory party the party for "I may be money poor, but I'm hate rich" voters?

In my view (which is from the left of the USA), the Tories were conservative like the USA's Republican party used to be conservative, only (just as with our Newt Gingrich's proposals) they became draconian while Thatcher was PM... in terms of lauding "personal responsibility" and dignity of work and all that... and good luck finding jobs with the money settling in like a blanket round the shoulders of the wealthy, just like here.

Nowadays I can't figure out where the Tories are going socially. Trying to be chameleons and hoping to avoid fall to Labour. But clearly the banks didn't buy in when Truss started trying to have a tax cut and social spending too.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

What we in the UK need is a General Election.

End of.

Period.

Agreed.

The UK used to be a by-word for stability, and decency, - and, for that matter, democracy, plus some sort of attachment to the idea of the rule of law - if leavened by a sort of stuffy and sometimes suffocating conservatism. Alas, no more.

This is appalling stuff.

Worse, it is an absolute - and excruciating - embarrassment.

Banana republics have been run better.

Four Prime Ministers in six years, four Chancellors this year alone, and - while he has been on the throne for less than two months, nevertheless, it would already appear that King Charles III is about to embark on the sovereign's weekly meetings with his second Prime Minister (his mother, in her reign of seventy years, saw 15 of them, meeting the the last of them - the then newly appointed Liz Truss - two days before her own death), and, if an election occurs in the next few months, will already more than likely be on his third.

Of course, it can be traced to that toxic combination of the Tories allowing themselves to be captured by ideological maniacs, without any serious attempt to respect (let alone, defend) the democratic traditions and institutions of the country, the appalling and pernicious influence of the loathsome Mr Murdoch and his media empire on British politics, culture and attitudes, and the sheer scandalous, casual, careless, insouciant irresponsibility of the David Cameron (politically, especially re Brexit) and George Osborne (economically) administration for failing to accept ownership (and responsibility) for what they had brought about.

What they - this Tory administration and its predecessors since 2010 - have done is outrageous. Scandalous. Disgraceful. And shameful.

 

[Arkitect]

 

[Deleted member 215]

Every time I’m in despair over the deplorable state of American governance, I look at the UK and realize we all have it bad.

Truss is the shortest-serving prime minister in British history.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Every time I’m in despair over the deplorable state of American governance, I look at the UK and realize we all have it bad.

....

There are a number of salient features common to both political cultures:

These include: The (to my mind dangerous) influence of the Murdoch media empire on the entire political process and on the political culture of both countries; the ambiguous and deeply dubious role played by Russian actors in the 2016 Brexit referendum (UK), and in the 2016 presidential election (US); the capture of what had been an essentially classical Conservative party (Conservatives in the UK, and Republicans in the US, respectively) by (anti-democratic) maniacs and their assorted lunatic friends armed with a far right wing agenda that they are determined to implement.

 

[lizkat]

Every time I’m in despair over the deplorable state of American governance, I look at the UK and realize we all have it bad.

Truss is the shortest-serving prime minister in British history.

There have been moments when I've wished we in the USA had a parliamentary system and that a snap election could be called. But talk about "grass is greener" syndrome.

Really there's nothing will cure the unsustainable habit both our systems have of kicking intractable issues down the road over and over again, mostly over inability to reconcile with effectiveness for the nation a bunch of opposing views on taxation, regulation, social spending.

There was a time when reconciliation through compromise was a goal, not like today when "reconciliation" is taken to mean "I've rounded up more votes so we're doing it this way." The winners feel insecure and the losers are angry. Consent of the governed totters amid grumbling but a lot of it is under radar and apathy is also widespread. So... there's room for elections on either side of the Atlantic to surprise.​

Anyway I wish the UK well in the coming weeks and months; it has been a time of hardship and uncertainty ever since the Brexit referendum passed, really... and one can understand the desire for an end to the extra look and feel of chaos now, with global inflation a huge factor.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

There have been moments when I've wished we in the USA had a parliamentary system and that a snap election could be called. But talk about "grass is greener" syndrome.

Really there's nothing will cure the unsustainable habit both our systems have of kicking intractable issues down the road over and over again, mostly over inability to reconcile with effectiveness for the nation a bunch of opposing views on taxation, regulation, social spending.

There was a time when reconciliation through compromise was a goal, not like today when "reconciliation" is taken to mean "I've rounded up more votes so we're doing it this way." The winners feel insecure and the losers are angry. Consent of the governed totters amid grumbling but a lot of it is under radar and apathy is also widespread. So... there's room for elections on either side of the Atlantic to surprise.​

Anyway I wish the UK well in the coming weeks and months; it has been a time of hardship and uncertainty ever since the Brexit referendum passed, really... and one can understand the desire for an end to the extra look and feel of chaos now, with global inflation a huge factor.

Actually, to my mind, - for I harbor considerable doubts about how the democratic integrity of a political system can be maintained and sustained under a "presidential system", and therefore, I far prefer parliamentary systems - it is not the fact that the UK has a parliamentary system of government that is the problem.

Rather, it is the fact that the UK never fully completed its various "revolutions"; they are arrested, and curiously incomplete, which means - in the absence of a written constitution which tends to make such matters explicit, while the absence of a written constitution has allowed various elites to be wonderfully vague on matters such as "human rights" and "civil rights" - that, to this very day, the population, the people, of the UK remain "subjects" (of His Majesty the King) rather than "citizens".

Citizens tend to have (inalienable) rights that subjects do not have and do not enjoy, other than conditionally, but not as a matter of right and rights; and, as women (and people of color) know all too bitterly well, conditional rights aren't rights at all, for they may be withdrawn on a whim, or a proverbial prayer, or political will, or a court judgment, or government decree or diktat, or, or, or...

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

There are a number of salient features common to both political cultures:

These include: The (to my mind dangerous) influence of the Murdoch media empire on the entire political process and on the political culture of both countries; the ambiguous and deeply dubious role played by Russian actors in the 2016 Brexit referendum (UK), and in the 2016 presidential election (US); the capture of what had been an essentially classical Conservative party (Conservatives in the UK, and Republicans in the US, respectively) by (anti-democratic) maniacs and their assorted lunatic friends armed with a far right wing agenda that they are determined to implement.

In the US at least, I think the messaging from the right side of the political aisle went from “vote for us and your economic situation will improve” to “vote for us and you’ll get to punish the people you don’t like” which I think is an appealing message to more than just extremists. Every older generation thinks the new generation has way more freedom than they had and they resent that. It needs to be stopped/punished/reversed.

I have to give them credit though. The economic lie was getting a little stale and the Democrats have proven to be just as adept at screwing people economically. With the Democrats towing the line for the rich the right didn’t have many options left to differentiate themselves. They’ve been priming their voters for this switch for decades but I think they were even shocked at how successful it was when Trump prematurely kicked the wheels off. Now it's just about damage control with those in their ranks who are being a little too honest about their shared beliefs and vision.

 

[Yoused]

Truss is the shortest-serving prime minister in British history.

there are 4 scaramuccis in 1 truss

 

[lizkat]

there are 4 scaramuccis in 1 truss

Well yes but as a mere WH communications director, Scaramucci had zero political power compared to what LIz Truss had and misrmanaged during her brief tenure as the UK's PM.

The Mooch's 11 days of mouthing off should not have surprised anyone. I remember being surprised he had lasted so long. Comms directors are meant to manage the news, not be it.​

​

Trump has forever misjudged competence and skills of the people he oddly puts into slots for which they are not remotely qualified. Guess he always figures if they don't work out he can fire them, same as on his old reality TV show.​

As for Ms. Truss, she had the power to pick and sack Cabinet ministers... but not the wisdom to understand that the sacking of her first chancellor may have been an only good move at that moment, but would certainly open the door to more questions about her programs and more pushback against their mutual dissonance.

 

[Yoused]

Well yes but as a mere WH communications director, Scaramucci had zero political power

I think that may not be 100% accurate: the depiction of C. J. Cregg in TWW showed a WH press secretary who was not an insignificant person, in large part due to her close access to the Oval. Of course, that was a representation of a functional D administration, as written by a really well-educated wastoid.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I think that may not be 100% accurate: the depiction of C. J. Cregg in TWW showed a WH press secretary who was not an insignificant person, in large part due to her close access to the Oval. Of course, that was a representation of a functional D administration, as written by a really well-educated wastoid.

@Yoused: Please, please, please, cease and desist from discussing not just American politics, but American TV shows (which are fiction, fantastic fiction but delusional, dreaming, idealized fiction) on a thread that is about the resignation of the fourth British Prime Minister in six years.

That TV show has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject matter of this thread.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that that TV show, TWW - an idealized fantasy - has nothing whatsoever to do with the dismal and depressing reality of US politics at the moment; but that is a matter, firstly, for another thread, and secondly, for the electorate of your state (states?), country, political culture, to address.

In any case, I have to say that I find this tendency of some of the US posters (both here, and, in another site that no longer hosts a political section) to find some way of dragging US politics into every single discussion about politics anywhere else in the world to be more than a little tedious, and rather tiresome.

You have a million threads on this site - and other sites - to discuss US stuff. This one is about the self-destructive, dysfunctional, and downright dreadful current political situation in the UK.

Actually, I would go so far as to say that the title of the thread is also missing the point; trickle down economics are one thing (and no, of course, they don't work, and it is long past time for that delusional and deranged myth to be exploded, debunked, dismissed and discarded), but the immediate (and medium term) trigger for the current political (and economic) implosion in the UK is Brexit.

In 2016, the UK economy was around 90% of the size of Germany's; now, it is closer to 70% (a decline that occurred in a mere six years); trade with the EU (the UK's largest trading partner) has fallen by almost 20% (and is still tumbling) since 2016; sterling has lost around 20% of its value (in real terms) since 2016, and so on.

The Irish foreign Minister, Simon Coveney, put it rather well this evening, when he said, while pleading for stability (not least in the UK): "I had the privilege of being foreign minister for five years, in that time I have dealt with six secretaries of state for Northern Ireland, five foreign secretaries [in the UK] and now it’s going to be four prime ministers.”

This is banana republic territory, which is something I never thought I would live to see in the UK.

What is worse is that this is entirely self-inflicted.

 

[Herdfan]

What we in the UK need is a General Election.

End of.

Period.

Yeah, can you give a quick and dirty of how all that works. Is the UK one of those places where someone decides to call for an election and they aren't scheduled?

 

[Yoused]

Yeah, can you give a quick and dirty of how all that works. Is the UK one of those places where someone decides to call for an election and they aren't scheduled?

Seems to me that the downfall of a PM (the administration, essentially) used to force an election. But that may be only when there is an actual vote of no-confidence in Parliament (both Boris and Liz stepped down voluntarily). The nice thing about forced/called elections is that the vote usually happens within about 2 months.