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Chew Toy McCoy

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I wonder if a Senate majority for the Democrats will go away forever.

This is what many are predicting if we don’t make any meaningful changes before 2022. And at that point who would blame people on the left for not trusting the government similar to how people on the right already don’t.

Has there ever been a time in history with similar anger, polarization, wealth inequality, and distrust or no confidence in the government that didn’t change without a civil or world war? Has it ever just worked itself out by nonviolent means?
 

lizkat

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This is what many are predicting if we don’t make any meaningful changes before 2022. And at that point who would blame people on the left for not trusting the government similar to how people on the right already don’t.

It's a problem...

Has there ever been a time in history with similar anger, polarization, wealth inequality, and distrust or no confidence in the government that didn’t change without a civil or world war? Has it ever just worked itself out by nonviolent means?

Well on the first question, we don't know and can't know because even with new parameters thrown into the mix (climate change, or truly extreme income and wealth inequalities) sometimes it takes a very long time for a civil war to finally bust out. The USA is among those nations which have experienced the misery, familial and societal damage and lingering issues created by a war that can pit brother against brother. Most but not all nations that have been through that once have made efforts not to go there again. The ones that suffer apparently endless approaches or ventures into another round of civil war have usually been at least somewhat at the mercy of external proxy managers with their own interests. Lebanon and Afghanistan come to mind, similarly Kashmir... and lately Yemen.

On the second question though, yes, sometimes distrust in the government does get worked out short of using violence. How temporary that might be (e.g., limited to a given term of someone's time in an elected or appointed office) is another question. As recent examples, Israel has managed to stay in one piece even while suffering through extended periods of failing to agree on a government after its elections. I would expect the same of Germany now as it embarks for the first time upon having to form at least a three-party coalition to agree upon its next Chancellor. The key is talking, talking, talking.

And talking issues to death still does remains a preferred option for most Americans, even though I view with alarm the shrinking window of issues comprehension that seems to have sprung up through a focus on soundbites and tweets.

We do seem to have a deep libertarian streak in the USA, but at least in the modern era so far, a vast majority of us does not seem to prefer either vigilante justice or anarchy. So when we see a couple dozen guys in some militia threatening to invade a state capitol, or twelve hundred people getting amped up enough in a demonstration to start committing violence, that's 24 or 1200 people out of 332,000,000.

You be the judge as to whether mass media and social media coverage of such events warrants 24/7 clickbait presentation and enough ad revenue generation to cover in a single day the total student debt of about 2,000 college kids.

I mean CNN racked up 1.7 billion bucks in 2020 off our fascination with ensuring we don't miss so much as a single new soundbite of some Senator reacting to some reporter's citation of an incendiary tweet posted by someone you never heard of. That's 4.6 million dollars a day, and that's not even counting the clickbait ad revenue to social media whence the eyeballs on CNN came from.

Civil war? Nah. We are way too busy reading and writing tweets about how there's gonna be one.

Meanwhile the Koch empire and all those other dark money superPAC outfits are buying your Congress critter's vote on stuff that matters: climate change, infrastructure, voting rights. They don't want a civil war either. At least not in the USA. And they have the money to guarantee it won't happen. It's enough to make the average Wisconsin or Michigan or upstate New York militiaman weep, even if the average progressive or blue dog Dem is also in tears.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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It's a problem...



Well on the first question, we don't know and can't know because even with new parameters thrown into the mix (climate change, or truly extreme income and wealth inequalities) sometimes it takes a very long time for a civil war to finally bust out. The USA is among those nations which have experienced the misery, familial and societal damage and lingering issues created by a war that can pit brother against brother. Most but not all nations that have been through that once have made efforts not to go there again. The ones that suffer apparently endless approaches or ventures into another round of civil war have usually been at least somewhat at the mercy of external proxy managers with their own interests. Lebanon and Afghanistan come to mind, similarly Kashmir... and lately Yemen.

On the second question though, yes, sometimes distrust in the government does get worked out short of using violence. How temporary that might be (e.g., limited to a given term of someone's time in an elected or appointed office) is another question. As recent examples, Israel has managed to stay in one piece even while suffering through extended periods of failing to agree on a government after its elections. I would expect the same of Germany now as it embarks for the first time upon having to form at least a three-party coalition to agree upon its next Chancellor. The key is talking, talking, talking.

And talking issues to death still does remains a preferred option for most Americans, even though I view with alarm the shrinking window of issues comprehension that seems to have sprung up through a focus on soundbites and tweets.

We do seem to have a deep libertarian streak in the USA, but at least in the modern era so far, a vast majority of us does not seem to prefer either vigilante justice or anarchy. So when we see a couple dozen guys in some militia threatening to invade a state capitol, or twelve hundred people getting amped up enough in a demonstration to start committing violence, that's 24 or 1200 people out of 332,000,000.

You be the judge as to whether mass media and social media coverage of such events warrants 24/7 clickbait presentation and enough ad revenue generation to cover in a single day the total student debt of about 2,000 college kids.

I mean CNN racked up 1.7 billion bucks in 2020 off our fascination with ensuring we don't miss so much as a single new soundbite of some Senator reacting to some reporter's citation of an incendiary tweet posted by someone you never heard of. That's 4.6 million dollars a day, and that's not even counting the clickbait ad revenue to social media whence the eyeballs on CNN came from.

Civil war? Nah. We are way too busy reading and writing tweets about how there's gonna be one.

Meanwhile the Koch empire and all those other dark money superPAC outfits are buying your Congress critter's vote on stuff that matters: climate change, infrastructure, voting rights. They don't want a civil war either. At least not in the USA. And they have the money to guarantee it won't happen. It's enough to make the average Wisconsin or Michigan or upstate New York militiaman weep, even if the average progressive or blue dog Dem is also in tears.

I also mentioned a world war. Some believe FDR got us out of the great depression with the new deal while others believe it was actually WWII and I'd say we are way more military-driven than we were back then. It's also a great way to make people STFU about other personal issues.

Does anybody on the left honestly see a ray of hope when the Republicans retake the majority by any means we allowed them to? Simply passing the skinny bill will be a complete capitulation that is in no way going to put faith in the Democrat party.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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From a Rolling Stone article and Manchin

First, his pretense toward fiscal sanity is absurd posturing. In a statement, he decried “the brutal fiscal reality” the nation faces as reason for his opposition. The $3.5 trillion, which is spread out over 10 years, is about 1.2 percent of GDP. How brutal is that? Especially when you consider that Manchin voted for every military budget in the last decade, which cost $9.1 trillion, without ever once whining about any brutal fiscal reality.
 
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lizkat

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I also mentioned a world war. Some believe FDR got us out of the great depression with the new deal while others believe it was actually WWII and I'd say we are way more military-driven than we were back then. It's also a great way to make people STFU about other personal issues.

Well the papers lately (the ones like the WSJ and FT that actually treat world issues) do seem to be hyping up how Islamic State is settling into Africa as the next blurry-focus-locus of the new Afghanistan, so... a mini world war as substitute for a hard to start world conflagration seems a nice ace up the sleeve for any incumbent politician needing to distract potential voters from looking at stuff like local track records. Expect the Rs to harp on how we exited Afghanistan (blame Biden, blame Biden, blame Biden) and when that well runs dry then go back to erasing all memory of Bush 43 and start blaming Obama and H.Clinton for Benghazi, then shift to shoring up the Pentagon and say "and see? just like we said, the Dems landed us in a mess we need to go straighten out in the Sahel".

Does anybody on the left honestly see a ray of hope when the Republicans retake the majority by any means we allowed them to? Simply passing the skinny bill will be a complete capitulation that is in no way going to put faith in the Democrat party.

I dunno. I cop without shame to the fact that I voted for Biden only because he was not Trump, and a third party win was out of the question. I still sleep better knowing that someone on Biden's crew, establishment though its lean, is who answers the phone at 3am. While Trump was in office I used to leave my router on at night and my notifications from WaPo and Reuters audible... until I came to my senses and realized even during the Trump era there were Democrats in public office whose job it was to do that.

My own progressive-side disappointments will be in category of foregone conclusion, and resented rather intensely, even if it's also true that Biden's centrism can probably tamp down some of the media focus on our polarization.... if the far right and far left will quit provoking the media to keep highlighting "us versus us!!"

Really I don't think people have faith in either party any more. We have "lean"... and we have vulnerability to cancel culture. I would be happier if more of us believed the parties still have mechanisms that in the end cross party lines and do look out for the USA proper.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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I will say this. The Democrat politician and voter voices calling Manchin and Sinema out on their shit are loud and many. On the right it’s mostly crickets in regards to the grand wizard Trumpists in their party. I think the elephant in the room is Trump supporters are considered armed and dangerous while Progressives are considered lesser nice guy whiners. They’re showing up to a gun fight with disapproval balloons.
 
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Everyone is talking about Joe Manchin talking to people from his yacht....
Is anyone going to talk about what an absolute motel bathtub piece of s*** “yacht” that is?
Talk about no class or style. :) :D

I mean - that fiberglass surround on the top deck is just offensively ugly
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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Everyone is talking about Joe Manchin talking to people from his yacht....
Is anyone going to talk about what an absolute motel bathtub piece of s*** “yacht” that is?
Talk about no class or style. :) :D

I mean - that fiberglass surround on the top deck is just offensively ugly

Well, there's rich and then there's West Virginia rich.
 

lizkat

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I will say this. The Democrat politician and voter voices calling Manchin and Sinema out on their shit are loud and many. On the right it’s mostly crickets in regards to the grand wizard Trumpists in their party. I think the elephant in the room is Trump supporters are considered armed and dangerous while Progressives are considered lesser nice guy whiners. They’re showing up to a gun fight with disapproval balloons.

Well they say the pen is mightier than the sword. Not sure if disapproval balloons outweigh actual guns.

On the other hand that was a pretty epic takedown of Sinema that California congresswoman Katie Porter launched the other day, taking on Sinema's snarky "I'm right there in front of the elevator" reply to queries about where she stood on pending legislation.

"This is not a time to be cute"... seemed like a pretty clear message to me but then I'm not a Senator from Arizona with no plan but apparently to keep her own party from passing bipartisan legislation the country needs. Porter noted that as far as anyone knows, Sinema hasn't voiced partifculars of her objections to the White House or to the Dem leaders of either the House or Senate.

So really Senator Sinema has some sharp intraparty criticism due her at this point, because she's not coming off as a serious legislator, just a showboater and spotlight hogger. At least with Manchin, spotlight addiction aside, it's pretty clear it's about climate change and his having been elected from coal country.
 

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The infuriating thing about Sinema is that she began her career in politics as a member of the Green Party and has a Master's degree in social work, so she should support much of what's in the reconciliation bill. But she's an example of how power, especially political, corrupts people. Elise Stefanik, who used to be a reasonable Republican, is another.

Manchin is a bit hard to figure out. He's beholden to fossil fuel interests, but seems earnest about his points-of-view. However, his calculus on the 3.5T package, which most folks want, is just plain wrong and pig-headed. It's not hyperbolic to say that he and Sinema may end up responsible for ruining what may be one of our last chances to make a difference on climate change, not to mention materially improving the day-to-day lives of many tens of millions of Americans.

If ever there were a valid reason to abolish anything but public funding for elections, they are it.
 

SuperMatt

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There was an interesting (to me) piece about Manchin and Sinema yesterday, with the opinions of people from their home states and hometowns. Manchin seems to be losing people from the right and the left based on the interviews in the video.

 

JayMysteri0

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https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1444032835531182080/
200.gif


Bonus:

Faux News highlighting the awful parts of the plan
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1444009836815872000/
 
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JayMysteri0

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When you completely miss the point. Thus the defense of something / someone is worse than the seeming offense.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1444123466228174848/

Case in point, when people have to find a way to travel by boat to see their congressional representative on his basically luxury 2 or 3rd residence, to plead with him to help provide for basic things his constituents want but he doesn't need. The fact that the constituents go to such means to implore their congressional representative to do what the majority ( 70% is it now with both parties combined? ) of his constituents. They want to go see him at such residence, makes whatever it's friggin' value... even more insulting. And the defender / supporter looking more clueless than ever.

🤦‍♂️
 
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Chew Toy McCoy

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Much like last week's protestors closing the golden gate bridge, I disagree with the activists cornering Sinema in the bathroom specifically over immigration. These young activists don't seem to comprehend democracy is on the line and if we lose that then they can kiss this and any other pet leftist issue they have goodbye. All they are really accomplishing here is inspiring more people on the right to go out and vote against them. I agree with the left on a lot of issues but this strategy at this time is just dumb.
 

JayMysteri0

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When you finally get a chance to meet your congressperson you may have elected, and get to ask why they don't want to do what the majority of what their constituents want.

https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1445187146420297736/

:cautious:

Notice. She asks why she won't do something. Response. "I don't negotiate in public." I don't believe your constituents asking why the 'F' you aren't doing what they voted you into office to do what they majority wants, is 'negotiating'. It's asking WTF are you doing and why.

She can't even be honest with basic questions anymore.
 
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