WSJ Tells Dr. Jill Biden to drop the Dr...because it's in Education.

U

User.45

Guest
I just don’t understand what the beef is. PHD= Doctor, even if it’s not a medical doctor, so what, it is a title that infers honor for a high degree of learning. Is this politically based shenanigans, or should I ask, does the sun rise every morning? :unsure:
Don't ask me... It's not the OpEd that is disturbing...that's just a grumpy old man without a PhD rambling about PhDs. What's disturbing is that they felt this met their quality requirements.
 

Eric

Mama's lil stinker
Posts
11,416
Reaction score
22,030
Location
California
Instagram
Main Camera
Sony
Don't ask me... It's not the OpEd that is disturbing...that's just a grumpy old man without a PhD rambling about PhDs. What's disturbing is that they felt this met their quality requirements.
While giving an imported butt model a free pass. Republican standards are nothing of not ripe.
 

Citizenzen

Power User
Posts
85
Reaction score
134
Don't ask me... It's not the OpEd that is disturbing...that's just a grumpy old man without a PhD rambling about PhDs. What's disturbing is that they felt this met their quality requirements.
Having turned 60 recently, I qualify under that description. And having worked for 20 years in university marketing, I’ve dealt with this question many times.

At my university (and many others with similar guidelines) the title Dr., is reserved for those with medical degrees. For everybody else, you have earned the right to have a PhD at the end of your name. But in university communications, you will never be referred to as Dr. So-and-so.
 
U

User.45

Guest
Having turned 60 recently, I qualify under that description. And having worked for 20 years in university marketing, I’ve dealt with this question many times.

At my university (and many others with similar guidelines) the title Dr., is reserved for those with medical degrees. For everybody else, you have earned the right to have a PhD at the end of your name. But in university communications, you will never be referred to as Dr. So-and-so.

American Society of Clinical Oncology guidelines:
Directive: Demonstrate Respect for Colleagues
  • All chairs, faculty, presenters, and panelists, including patients and advocates, who have a doctoral degree (e.g., MD, PhD, ScD, PharmD) should be introduced and addressed as Dr. Full Name or Dr. Last Name.
  • All other chairs, faculty, presenters, and panelists (including patients and advocates) should be introduced and addressed as Mr./Ms. Full Name or Mr./Ms. Last Name.
  • These forms of address should continue during Q&A and panel discussions, regardless of whether the faculty know one another. The key element is consistency of address among all panelists.
  • We will ask all faculty to commit to use of a professional form of address when accepting their session invitations. Chairs will be asked to briefly reiterate this policy with all faculty in their session immediately prior to the start of the session.

The backstory is a 2019 Duma et al paper in the Journal of Clinical Oncology on Evaluating Unconscious Bias: Speaker Introductions at an International Oncology Conference

"We conducted a retrospective, observational study of video-archived speaker introductions at the 2017 and 2018 ASCO Annual Meetings. A “professional address” was defined as the professional title followed by the speaker’s full name or last name. Multivariable logistic regressions were used to identify factors associated with the form of address.

Of 2,511 videos reviewed, 781 met inclusion criteria. Female speakers were addressed less often by their professional title compared with male speakers (62% v 81%; P , .001). Males were less likely to use a professional address when introducing female speakers compared with females when introducing male speakers (53% v 80%; P , .01). When women performed speaker introductions, no gender differences in professional address were observed (75% v 82%; P = .13). Female speakers were more likely to be introduced by first name only (17% v 3%; P , .001). Male introducers were more likely to address female speakers by first name only compared with female introducers (24% v 7%; P , .01). In a multivariable regression including gender, degree, academic rank, and geographic location of the speaker’s institution, male speakers were more likely to receive a professional address compared with female speakers (odds ratio, 2.43; 95% CI, 1.71 to 3.47; P , .01).

CONCLUSION: When introduced by men, female speakers were less likely to receive a professional address and more likely to be introduced by first name only compared with their male peers."
 

Citizenzen

Power User
Posts
85
Reaction score
134
American Society of Clinical Oncology guidelines:
Directive: Demonstrate Respect for Colleagues
  • All chairs, faculty, presenters, and panelists, including patients and advocates, who have a doctoral degree (e.g., MD, PhD, ScD, PharmD) should be introduced and addressed as Dr. Full Name or Dr. Last Name.
  • All other chairs, faculty, presenters, and panelists (including patients and advocates) should be introduced and addressed as Mr./Ms. Full Name or Mr./Ms. Last Name.
  • These forms of address should continue during Q&A and panel discussions, regardless of whether the faculty know one another. The key element is consistency of address among all panelists.
  • We will ask all faculty to commit to use of a professional form of address when accepting their session invitations. Chairs will be asked to briefly reiterate this policy with all faculty in their session immediately prior to the start of the session.

The backstory is a 2019 Duma et al paper in the Journal of Clinical Oncology on Evaluating Unconscious Bias: Speaker Introductions at an International Oncology Conference

"We conducted a retrospective, observational study of video-archived speaker introductions at the 2017 and 2018 ASCO Annual Meetings. A “professional address” was defined as the professional title followed by the speaker’s full name or last name. Multivariable logistic regressions were used to identify factors associated with the form of address.

Of 2,511 videos reviewed, 781 met inclusion criteria. Female speakers were addressed less often by their professional title compared with male speakers (62% v 81%; P , .001). Males were less likely to use a professional address when introducing female speakers compared with females when introducing male speakers (53% v 80%; P , .01). When women performed speaker introductions, no gender differences in professional address were observed (75% v 82%; P = .13). Female speakers were more likely to be introduced by first name only (17% v 3%; P , .001). Male introducers were more likely to address female speakers by first name only compared with female introducers (24% v 7%; P , .01). In a multivariable regression including gender, degree, academic rank, and geographic location of the speaker’s institution, male speakers were more likely to receive a professional address compared with female speakers (odds ratio, 2.43; 95% CI, 1.71 to 3.47; P , .01).

CONCLUSION: When introduced by men, female speakers were less likely to receive a professional address and more likely to be introduced by first name only compared with their male peers."
Cool. You found an institution with different guidelines. These guidelines will differ from institution to institution. In our process of determining the guidelines for our university, (a bastion of liberalism in Northern California) we arrived at a different conclusion.
 
Last edited:
U

User.45

Guest
Cool. You found an institution with different guidelines. These guidelines will differ from institution to institution. In our process of determining the guidelines for our university, (a bastion of liberalism in Northern California) we arrived at a different conclusion.
Of course, the guidelines are subjective. I like the ASCO guideline because it was established based on data - i.e. women objectively measurably don't receive the respect due. ASCO is also a very large meeting so these discrepancies should not be attributable to people expecting the audience to personally know the speaker, which is the situation in some sub-sub-specialty meetings.

If we're thinking about the same North California bastion, it doesn't have a medical school (at least officially) so that may also shape the attitude.
 

SuperMatt

Site Master
Posts
7,862
Reaction score
15,004
I’ve spent my entire adult life associated with universities, from the SUNY system to Texas to Ohio and Alabama. Those with a Ph.D. are always addressed as doctor. That’s what the D in PhD stands for.
I had a music professor with a doctorate in grad school and even years later if I see her, I still call her doctor. Funny how the author who doesn’t think non-medical doctorate degrees are something to be recognized gladly accepted an honorary doctorate when offered to him. Double standard much?
 

Alli

Perfection
Staff Member
Site Donor
Posts
5,927
Reaction score
11,853
Location
Alabackwards
I had a music professor with a doctorate in grad school and even years later if I see her, I still call her doctor. Funny how the author who doesn’t think non-medical doctorate degrees are something to be recognized gladly accepted an honorary doctorate when offered to him. Double standard much?
Maybe he thinks they’re all honorary?
 

lizkat

Watching March roll out real winter
Posts
7,341
Reaction score
15,163
Location
Catskill Mountains
Maybe he thinks they’re all honorary?

Yeah, like his own...

If that guy's op-ed had been a performed piece of classical music it might have been one of those Baroque compositions that on paper can look pretty simple, with a theme presented and then reworked a few times in a fairly standard (not to say obvious) manner... but which then in actual performance may be massively ornamented at the performer's discretion and in his chosen style.

The ornaments Epstein chose were condescension, misogyny and sheer jealousy. The style was pedantic and overbearing. The result, had the thing actually been music, would probably have garnered a few walkouts during performance in a public venue. He and the WSJ deserved all the backlash that was dished out in comments to the WSJ and on social media.

Epstein's comment to CNN on that backlash, as reported by The Independent:

“...no comment, apart from saying that I thought mine a lightly humorous piece, but I fear there isn't much humor in the world, especially among the politically correct."

Leaving "humor" aside: anyone who simply wanted to make the point Epstein was ostensibly attempting could have done it in the space Twitter allows for a standard tweet. So I do fault Paul Gigot for buying into the ornamented version and for not exercising the editorial authority the WSJ has given him.
 

SuperMatt

Site Master
Posts
7,862
Reaction score
15,004
Yeah, like his own...

If that guy's op-ed had been a performed piece of classical music it might have been one of those Baroque compositions that on paper can look pretty simple, with a theme presented and then reworked a few times in a fairly standard (not to say obvious) manner... but which then in actual performance may be massively ornamented at the performer's discretion and in his chosen style.

The ornaments Epstein chose were condescension, misogyny and sheer jealousy. The style was pedantic and overbearing. The result, had the thing actually been music, would probably have garnered a few walkouts during performance in a public venue. He and the WSJ deserved all the backlash that was dished out in comments to the WSJ and on social media.

Epstein's comment to CNN on that backlash, as reported by The Independent:



Leaving "humor" aside: anyone who simply wanted to make the point Epstein was ostensibly attempting could have done it in the space Twitter allows for a standard tweet. So I do fault Paul Gigot for buying into the ornamented version and for not exercising the editorial authority the WSJ has given him.
Well-written music analogy; I’ve performed with people that put ornaments on everything and it’s obnoxious and ends up detracting from the overall performance. Don’t forget - there is an audience, it’s not all about the performers.
 

JayMysteri0

What the F?!!!
Posts
6,612
Reaction score
13,752
Location
Not HERE.
I'm called 'Dr' on my AAA card. Seems someone decided to get creative and change 'Mr' to 'Dr'.

I went to them & explained I'm not a doctor, the receptionist laughed & told me not to bother correcting it.

I've been a 'Dr' to AAA for more than decade now. The person at AAA always takes my card, greets me as "Dr", and I always go with a tired, "I'm not a doctor, I just play one on my AAA card". Then I have to explain the story and the AAA person tells me to keep the name as it is.


Side note: It's always annoyed me that any place that I ever worked at that had name tags wouldn't allow me to us "Mr. Mister". What's up with that? Already taken?
 

lizkat

Watching March roll out real winter
Posts
7,341
Reaction score
15,163
Location
Catskill Mountains
Well-written music analogy; I’ve performed with people that put ornaments on everything and it’s obnoxious and ends up detracting from the overall performance. Don’t forget - there is an audience, it’s not all about the performers.

Slight digression, can't resist... legendary harpsichordist Wanda Landowska, concluding an argument with equally legendary cellist Pablo Casals on how JS Bach should be played:

"You play Bach your way, and I'll play him his way."​
 
Top Bottom
1 2