17 Year-old Blue Lives Matter Activist with AR 15 Charged With Murder After Two Killed at Protest

yaxomoxay

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At the age of 17, it’s not legal for Kyle to own it, period. There’s your answer.
So the owner was 18+ as Mr. Rittenhouse was not the owner.

Now the question is: is it legal in Wisconsin to carry a firearm owned by an adult when an adult is present?
If not, that’s probably a misdemeanor.
 
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User.45

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I don’t think there’s anything absolute about it. What if you stole somebody’s gun, and they try to get it back, you fear they are going to hurt you in the process, and you shoot them? You could say you feared for your life as the victim of your robbery attempted to hurt you to get the gun back. I doubt a jury would see it that way… but who knows?
In America, it would boil down to skin color or perceived racial background as evidenced by the data you posted on distribution of self-defense vs. murder/manslaughter charges per race.

It doesn’t seem that the witnesses corroborated that Mr Rittenhouse was an instigator. And here we’re talking about prosecution witnesses. Even with the first shooting, by the dumpster, everything - including FBI drone footage - points to Mr Rittenhouse being first threatened and the attacked. You get a very good point: the trial is not over, therefore mine is obviously just an opinion. Personally I was hoping he’d get some manslaughter charges for the first shooting, but from what I see even that will be very hard at this point.
I don't really have time to follow the trial realtime, i'll catch up on it once all the evidence is presented. Beyond that it's just prejudice... I shared my opinion above about the outcome and the effect. This issue with this is stand your ground states push people to escalate violence to homicide and reward white people and punish black people for committing avoidable homicides (statistics). So if this case will create a sort of stand-your-ground-like precedent, the societal impact will be expectedly the same.

I don’t totally disagree with this, but people bringing guns and rifles at a protest (on either side, if there is a side), isn’t new. Even yesterday’s witness admitted not only to having a concealed handgun, but even having pointed it. However, I think you will concur that the trial is not - and shouldn’t be - about “what happens if the accused gets convicted / acquitted but about the law.
I personally would want anybody who pulled their guns out punished. I'll emphasize, that flashing an AR15 half the size of Rittenhouse in a heated situation like this should be illegal too and it might have actually been. Wikipedia was edited to suggest that the Weapons effect (people's behavior at the sight of a firearm changes for the more aggressive) is not real. Of course it's real and we should not reward people who escalate violence.

Reddit lawyer? I am not that low! My degree comes from decades of practicing law on random online forums, often in conversations in which most participants base their opinions on newspaper titles only or, in the best case, tweets.
I have a very specific grievance about "reddit experts." Front page favors early posts over high-quality posts, so the first X-hundred posts will come from those who sort by new and if expertise comes with a busy professional life, well you will just not get expert opinion there, unless it's an AMA.

I see this about medical issues all the time. There's 2 specific videos on esoteric treatments of "parkinson's" disease that popped up on the Front Page about 2-3x each and I was only able to spot a single neurologist commenting, buried deep in one of the comment sections. Now the actual videos are on the border of ridiculous BS but so that I don't stigmatize people I always discuss them with a friend who is a movement disorders expert trained at top institutions before posting my opinion on the video. You can guess how many people sees that. So it's a great example of how Reddit gives the impression of collective consciousness being at the works, when it really just blind leading the blind.


Now, again, I can’t stand Mr. Rittenhouse, but by the many “highlights” I’ve watched it’s evident that he didn’t break any law.
This takes me to how much I admire your familiarity with federal and wisconsin law. I still struggle with the questions, whether, could he possess a gun in Indiana? Could he legally carry it across state lines? Could he possess the gun in Wisconsin? Could he carry it out in the open in Wisconsin? Did he have any prior altercation prior to the one that led to the shooting? Did he have a choice alternative to pulling the trigger the first time? What about the second time?
 

Renzatic

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This takes me to how much I admire your familiarity with federal and wisconsin law. I still struggle with the questions, whether, could he possess a gun in Indiana? Could he legally carry it across state lines? Could he possess the gun in Wisconsin? Could he carry it out in the open in Wisconsin? Did he have any prior altercation prior to the one that led to the shooting? Did he have a choice alternative to pulling the trigger the first time? What about the second time?

The law in general tends to boil these situations down to bare basic points of what happened in the heat of the moment. In this situation, did he instigate the encounter that lead to the deaths of two people? If yes, he's guilty of murder. If no, then it's self defense.

Yeah, he did carry a weapon he isn't legally allowed to own across state lines to participate in some culture war skirmishes, and was likely hoping for an altercation or two. But what if, despite all this prior evidence of intent, he did find himself in a situation where he was minding his own business, only to be jumped by a group of people who didn't have his best interests in mind? In that situation, he would have the right to self defense, since his mere presence alone isn't enough of an instigating factor to charge him with murder or manslaughter.

The prosecution has to prove that he started the encounter, that his actions, not his presence, escalated the situation. After all, he wasn't the only person who wasn't allowed out on that street that night. If they can't prove that, then he walks.

...and we're left dealing with the fallout.
 
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User.45

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The law in general tends to boil these situations down to bare basic points of what happened in the heat of the moment. In this situation, did he instigate the encounter that lead to the deaths of two people? If yes, he's guilty of murder. If no, then it's self defense.

Yeah, he did carry a weapon he isn't legally allowed to own across state lines to participate in some culture war skirmishes, and was likely hoping for an altercation or two. But what if, despite all this prior evidence of intent, he did find himself in a situation where he was minding his own business, only to be jumped by a group of people who didn't have his best interests in mind? In that situation, he would have the right to self defense, since his mere presence alone isn't enough of an instigating factor to charge him with murder or manslaughter.

The prosecution has to prove that he started the encounter, that his actions, not his presence, escalated the situation. After all, he wasn't the only person who wasn't allowed out on that street that night. If they can't prove that, then he walks.

...and we're left dealing with the fallout.
Agree with all of these points. My reaction was to the explicit statement that its is “evident that KR did not break any law”.
 

yaxomoxay

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I personally would want anybody who pulled their guns out punished.

Ok, but you would agree that what the laws should’ve been is not part of the trial about Mr Rittenhouse culpability.

I'll emphasize, that flashing an AR15 half the size of Rittenhouse in a heated situation like this should be illegal too and it might have actually been.
I am not sure, but I have the feeling that the curfew “shields” Mr Rittenhouse, at least to a point. The protest was not an organized protest, with all the requirements of an organized event. In other words, independently on us agreeing or not with the protest, they should’ve not been there. The same way works for Rittenhouse. He should’ve not been there. The result is that neither party had a valid claim on “I can walk these streets”, which makes being there a sort of provocative act by default. Disparate violence and chaos made thing much worse. Idiocy by Rittenhouse & company made thing much much worse.

I have a very specific grievance about "reddit experts." Front page favors early posts over high-quality posts, so the first X-hundred posts will come from those who sort by new and if expertise comes with a busy professional life, well you will just not get expert opinion there, unless it's an AMA.

In all seriousness, I do too. But let’s face it, it’s an interesting place to get some ideas and when 99% on multiple side agree on one thing, it might have a point (“might” be the operative word).

I see this about medical issues all the time. There's 2 specific videos on esoteric treatments of "parkinson's" disease that popped up on the Front Page about 2-3x each and I was only able to spot a single neurologist commenting, buried deep in one of the comment sections. Now the actual videos are on the border of ridiculous BS but so that I don't stigmatize people I always discuss them with a friend who is a movement disorders expert trained at top institutions before posting my opinion on the video. You can guess how many people sees that. So it's a great example of how Reddit gives the impression of collective consciousness being at the works, when it really just blind leading the blind.
I don’t disagree with any of the above.

This takes me to how much I admire your familiarity with federal and wisconsin law.

To be honest, this type of sarcastic remarks make me chuckle but they can get frustrating. I wrote a post, and immediately two answers went into the “qualifications” subject. We’re on an anonymous forum. We’re sharing ideas. We’re discussing current events. We’re just talking the same way we’d talk to a few friends in front of a beer or coffee. There’s no need to be lawyers, or SME’s, to share ideas and opinions. That’s how people learn. Do we really have to preface all statements with “In my humble opinion”? Do we really have to be certified SME’s to say what we think?

Could he legally carry it across state lines?

Probably not, but since it didn’t happen it’s a moot question.

Could he possess the gun in Wisconsin?
As for ownership, my guess is not. As for carrying it, it’s a good question.


Did he have any prior altercation prior to the one that led to the shooting?

From what I have seen about the trial, it seems he didn’t.

Did he have a choice alternative to pulling the trigger the first time? What about the second time?

We’ll find out soon I guess.
 

yaxomoxay

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Agree with all of these points. My reaction was to the explicit statement that its is “evident that KR did not break any law”.
Mind you, I specifically wrote that I was basing it on the highlights I saw. I never claimed to be in the know of the entire court case, quite the contrary.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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Regardless of the outcome of the trial, I can’t imagine a future for this kid where he’ll be a beacon for bringing different sides together. He’s probably already been invited to be an honored member of every right-wing extremist group and if Trump gets a second term he’ll probably give him some kind of award.
 

yaxomoxay

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Regardless of the outcome of the trial, I can’t imagine a future for this kid where he’ll be a beacon for bringing different sides together. He’s probably already been invited to be an honored member of every right-wing extremist group and if Trump gets a second term he’ll probably give him some kind of award.
My belief is that Mr Rittenhouse is a POS, a spoiled kid, and a bad person in general. My wish is that he, and people like him, could disappear forever.
He might be in the right as far as the law is concerned, but this doesn’t change that he is a POS.
 

SuperMatt

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The law in general tends to boil these situations down to bare basic points of what happened in the heat of the moment. In this situation, did he instigate the encounter that lead to the deaths of two people? If yes, he's guilty of murder. If no, then it's self defense.

Yeah, he did carry a weapon he isn't legally allowed to own across state lines to participate in some culture war skirmishes, and was likely hoping for an altercation or two. But what if, despite all this prior evidence of intent, he did find himself in a situation where he was minding his own business, only to be jumped by a group of people who didn't have his best interests in mind? In that situation, he would have the right to self defense, since his mere presence alone isn't enough of an instigating factor to charge him with murder or manslaughter.

The prosecution has to prove that he started the encounter, that his actions, not his presence, escalated the situation. After all, he wasn't the only person who wasn't allowed out on that street that night. If they can't prove that, then he walks.

...and we're left dealing with the fallout.
It’s a bit disturbing to think that it all boils down to the heat of the moment. After all, I believe somebody mentioned a bazooka earlier in the thread. If somebody’s only defensive weapon is a bazooka and they carry it around everywhere, including powder-keg situations such as street protests.... let’s say they ARE threatened by a single person. They only have a bazooka, so they fire it at the threatening person who’s in a crowd and end up killing a hundred people. Are they innocent of the 99 collateral deaths?

They need to look at what happened leading up to the situation. If I keep poking a sleeping bear until it wakes up and instinctually claws at me, and then I shoot it... is the bear to blame? Clearly not. I think Rittenhouse’s prior actions, bringing a gun to a street protest, running around from place to place with it, claiming that he’s wanting a chance to defend against the mob... I don’t think he can use self-defense here.

The burden of proof is generally on the prosecution. HOWEVER, when the defense concedes that their client did in fact shoot people to death, now THEY have a burden of proof that it was self-defense.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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They need to look at what happened leading up to the situation. If I keep poking a sleeping bear until it wakes up and instinctually claws at me, and then I shoot it... is the bear to blame? Clearly not. I think Rittenhouse’s prior actions, bringing a gun to a street protest, running around from place to place with it, claiming that he’s wanting a chance to defend against the mob... I don’t think he can use self-defense here.

If he was black then 95% of the case would be about the buildup. I'm going to predict it's going to be the polar opposite in this case. Sounds like something out of the Trump playbook, unsurprisingly. Don't look at the years....months....weeks....days before the action. Nothing to see here.
 

Renzatic

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If he was black then 95% of the case would be about the buildup. I'm going to predict it's going to be the polar opposite in this case. Sounds like something out of the Trump playbook, unsurprisingly. Don't look at the years....months....weeks....days before the action. Nothing to see here.

Didn't he claim he dreamed about killing people before the shooting occurred? Has that quip been used in the trial?
 

Eric

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If he was black then 95% of the case would be about the buildup. I'm going to predict it's going to be the polar opposite in this case. Sounds like something out of the Trump playbook, unsurprisingly. Don't look at the years....months....weeks....days before the action. Nothing to see here.
All the components are there.
  • White judge
  • Mostly white jury
  • George Zimmerman precedent
You CAN openly talk about shooting potestors, engage them, then murder them and fully get away with it so long as you yourself aren't black. Value placed on black lives is simply less than white lives. I don't care how anyone spins it, in the end that is the reality.

As for Kyle, he will walk and when he does it would be nice to see some real justice befall him out there somewhere. It will be one less racist piece of shit on the streets.
 

Eric

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The way things are going, he'll probably end up being our next president.
At the very least he'll get his own show on Fox News, God only knows they're essentially responsible for funding his entire defense.
 

Eric

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Couldn't someone arm themselves with an assault rifle, stalk and find out where he'll be and then travel across state lines, start some shit and then shoot him when he pushes back? Seems to be a legit way of handling him. (just make sure you're white)
 

SuperMatt

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As for Kyle, he will walk and when he does it would be nice to see some real justice befall him out there somewhere. It will be one less racist piece of shit on the streets.

Couldn't someone arm themselves with an assault rifle, stalk and find out where he'll be and then travel across state lines, start some shit and then shoot him when he pushes back? Seems to be a legit way of handling him.

I’m not really a fan of vigilante justice. I hope justice is served in this case, but working to change the justice system long-term is a much better choice IMHO.
 
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