SCOTUS Rulings

Huntn

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It appears that SCOTUS is not yet a complete tool of ultra right, GOP States Rights crowd.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...-that-found-racial-gerrymandering/ar-AA1d3Duo

If you remember the Civil War was fought in the South’s perspective not in the name of pro-slavery, but in the name of State’s Rights, the “right to be bad if we want to”. The same thinking that insisted on segregation, and today, hostility towards The Voters Rights Act throwing up multiple roadblocks in the way of convienent voting.

There is really not much mystery why minority majority states are under-represented.

In the Allen decision, the court effectively found that the state’s congressional lines likely violated the landmark piece of civil rights legislation. Even though Black people make up roughly a quarter of Alabama’s population, just one of the state’s seven congressional districts is majority Black — which the challengers attributed to racial gerrymandering.
 

Herdfan

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In the Allen decision, the court effectively found that the state’s congressional lines likely violated the landmark piece of civil rights legislation. Even though Black people make up roughly a quarter of Alabama’s population, just one of the state’s seven congressional districts is majority Black — which the challengers attributed to racial gerrymandering.

I do wonder what the districts would look like if you handed a Zip Code/Population map of Alabama (or any state for that matter) to some Europeans who knew nothing of the demographics and had them draw new districts.

Only requirement is they be contiguous as much as possible.
 

Huntn

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I do wonder what the districts would look like if you handed a Zip Code/Population map of Alabama (or any state for that matter) to some Europeans who knew nothing of the demographics and had them draw new districts.

Only requirement is they be contiguous as much as possible.
Gerrymandering is specifically an anti-Democratic Mechanism perpetrated by both parties at some point.
I’ve always said districts should be geographical logical, basic shapes, based on total numbers as a limiter and should be drawn by independent or bi-partisan committees.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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They just stopped racism by killing affirmative action. Just like when the financial sector gets deregulated there’s never a crash or recession or letting the assault rifle ban lapse never resulted in mass shootings by an assault rifle. Freedom!!
 

Herdfan

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But what about the Asians who were denied acceptance based on them simply being Asian?

Is that fair?

Perhaps some of the ire should be directed at Harvard and other schools that used race to exclude qualified applicants.

Gerrymandering is specifically an anti-Democratic Mechanism perpetrated by both parties at some point.
I’ve always said districts should be geographical logical, basic shapes, based on total numbers as a limiter and should be drawn by independent or bi-partisan committees.

I agree, but I also think there would be less minority representation without some gerrymandering.
 

GermanSuplex

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These crotchety old bastards have really been on a roll as of late. Hopefully between the stress of dismantling rights for everyone, they have time to relax at expensive resorts, puffing cigars in exotic places, all paid for by billionaires with business before the courts.

Clarence Thomas really is a piece of work. Graduated from Yale thanks to affirmative action. You’ve got to love people who have no problem climbing the ladder, then pulling it up behind them before others get a chance. Seriously, screw Clarence Thomas and all the people who have him in their back pocket.

Hopefully he can live long enough to rule social security and welfare as unconstitutional. Accepting lavish gifts from the ultra-wealthy whom have cases before you, still 👌.
 

AG_PhamD

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The fact that Clarence Thomas fought so hard against affirmative action after being a recipient of it for his own education speaks volumes about the Conservative hypocrisy sweeping the nation right now.

I certainly have my issues with Thomas- many in fact, but I from a human perspective would think it’s possible for someone to benefit from a system they disagree with. I would propose we are all guilty of this to some degree. And for Thomas when born into a poor family, in the south, during segregation as a black man, I would think anyone in his shoes would take any opportunity thrown his/her way. I would also suggest Thomas, age 75 now, many not the same person he was some 50+ years ago- for better or for worse.

———

I believe affirmative action is a very problematic way of doing things. Indeed we should strive for inclusivity and diversity in education, but it’s also not fair to rejecting otherwise better ranked applicants simply for the color of their skin. And it has been a problem for some time of more demanding academic programs accepting lower performing students based on race which ultimately sets them up for failure and arguably could make them less successful.
That said, if you have two applicants with the same merit and one student is from an underrepresented group, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to choose that student over the other.

Honestly, I think this whole discussion of colleges and affirmative action is a distraction from a much greater problem that frankly is an uncomfortable discussion. That is the poor levels of K-12 academic success in some minority communities, the black community perhaps being the most significant.

Indeed black people have suffered generational discrimination and injustices, but there is also a frequently “cultural” or “social” component within many Black communities or families where there is less emphasis on the value of education. If you look at school attendance rates in poor, urban, black schools, it’s quite alarming. Not surprisingly, this is probably, at least in part; responsible for worse testing scores. In 2021, in Hartford, CT (a poor city comprised mostly of Blacks and Latinos) almost 50% of students were absent more than 10% of the school year. Prior to the pandemic it was still around 30-40% as I recall. And these urban schools often spend more per student than affluent suburbs. It’s hard to imagine many students can be successful if they are missing so much school. In some Black communities (as well as very commonly in Native American communities), going to school/college can be seen as elitist or betraying your peers.

I would like to highlight however, when you have (often) generations of poor academic performance in families or communities, it’s not unreasonably to imagine parents might not know how to best help encourage and support their children in academic success.

IIRC Canada has far less “segregation” so to speak in their communities (communities are more likely to have black people living next to white people than the US) and there is a far smaller education gap than we have in the US.

If you look to so called “model minorities” - Asians, Indians, historically Jews, all these groups tend to have a significant community emphasis on education, working hard in school, being successful, etc, even among very poor families. But it’s not surprising that when families/communities value education very highly their children perform better. To be clear, this can have its negatives on mental health and such and this seems to be a growing issue in itself.

Focusing on affirmative action in higher education is incredibly shortsighted and frankly just morally wrong if you want to ensure the success of the disadvantaged minorities. We should be promoting academic achievement in K-12 students and their communities. The real issue here is the academic performance gap. Artificially promoting underperforming students is not solving the real problem at hand.

Unfortunately, I think this is often too taboo of a topic to talk about politically. Yet every teacher I know, including very liberal ones, cite these issues as being major barriers for certain racial groups. But apparently is being misconstrued as offensive is somehow worse than continuing the status quo.

I think there is also tremendous misunderstanding about the cost of college for people who are very poor. Especially at the most elite colleges, the financial aid available for those with nothing can frankly make education far more accessible (often free) than those from the middle class or even upper middle class. Cost is another discussion entirely though.

Its is my belief with academic success brings occupational success and advancement, which brings wealth, societal advancement and equality- which is what we should ultimately striving here. Not just statistics that bear out representative proportions in elite schools. The latter is how every other minority has brought themselves societal power, respect/acceptance, relative equality, etc.

At the end of the day- I’m really not sure how much this ruling will affect things. And frankly, I’m not sure how much affirmative action in schools was truly helping the poor, underrepresented minorities so much as it was helping middle class to affluent underrepresented racial minorities.
 

GermanSuplex

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I certainly have my issues with Thomas- many in fact, but I from a human perspective would think it’s possible for someone to benefit from a system they disagree with. I would propose we are all guilty of this to some degree. And for Thomas when born into a poor family, in the south, during segregation as a black man, I would think anyone in his shoes would take any opportunity thrown his/her way. I would also suggest Thomas, age 75 now, many not the same person he was some 50+ years ago- for better or for worse.

You make a lot of good points:

Democrats need to move on quickly, focus on school funding, extracurricular education, things like that. You are right that it hasn’t been the overwhelming hand up it was intended to be. But we don’t want to fall further behind either. Let’s find solutions in a different way.

There are valid arguments against it that are hard to disagree with. My problem isn’t the valid complaints, or even the ending of affirmative action. It comes from those who don’t think there’s systemic racism, and that there was no need for affirmative action in the first place.

And my problem with Thomas isn’t necessarily that he benefited from a system he now disagrees with. That is certainly possible. My gripe is his ego and his arrogance. He is certain that without affirmative action, he’d still be a justice, that there were still plenty of opportunities for people like him.

His rulings have been so far-right that he’s often the sole dissent in cases.

He will also probably rule against Biden’s student load forgiveness, while his billionaire buddy paid for his godson’s tuition. Maybe he should put that in his opinion - stop whining about you skin’s pigment and get some damn wealthy friends!

Then again, knowing Thomas, he’d probably also think this painting would exist even if he wasn’t a justice. I’m sure that billionaires would lavish him with gifts and commission paintings of him if he was county judge somewhere.

IMG_0514.jpeg
 

fooferdoggie

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These crotchety old bastards have really been on a roll as of late. Hopefully between the stress of dismantling rights for everyone, they have time to relax at expensive resorts, puffing cigars in exotic places, all paid for by billionaires with business before the courts.

Clarence Thomas really is a piece of work. Graduated from Yale thanks to affirmative action. You’ve got to love people who have no problem climbing the ladder, then pulling it up behind them before others get a chance. Seriously, screw Clarence Thomas and all the people who have him in their back pocket.

Hopefully he can live long enough to rule social security and welfare as unconstitutional. Accepting lavish gifts from the ultra-wealthy whom have cases before you, still 👌.
it is all about his feelings. He hates something os so he rules against it. I thought republicans were not about feelings? The snowflakeiness.
 

GermanSuplex

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They’ve ruled against Biden’s student loan forgiveness.

If this - and all the other things were facing, like shady pardons if a Republican gets in - don’t drive democrat turnout, I don’t know what will. Biden should highlight his accomplishments, but also highlight the “accomplishments” of a conservative Supreme Court, as he runs for reelection. It’s bigger than the names on the ballots, it’s about where you want the country to go moving forward. The conservatives see the future as fifty years in the past.
 

Eric

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it is all about his feelings. He hates something os so he rules against it. I thought republicans were not about feelings? The snowflakeiness.
The irony of it is without affirmative action he wouldn't have ever had the education that put him into contention for his existing seat. These fuckers have no shame.
 

Herdfan

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You are right that it hasn’t been the overwhelming hand up it was intended to be. But we don’t want to fall further behind either.

I think that is because too many people saw it as quotas. And in some ways they would be right. Had it just been used when, as @AG_PhamD posted, when two candidates were equal with the minority candidate getting the nod, that would have been fine for most people.
 

Eric

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I think that is because too many people saw it as quotas. And in some ways they would be right. Had it just been used when, as @AG_PhamD posted, when two candidates were equal with the minority candidate getting the nod, that would have been fine for most people.
I think a larger part of the problem here is that there is no identifier for race on admission applications, at least prior to this ruling. So all things being equal on an academic scale, for example, if you have 50 white people and one or two black people vying for 30 openings, you almost eliminate any chance for black people. Now amplify that by tens of thousands.

They've effectively taken all of the equity out of the equation and statistically speaking minorities will have little to no real shot when being squeezed out by white people if colleges and universities don't somehow adapt.
 

Nycturne

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I think that is because too many people saw it as quotas. And in some ways they would be right. Had it just been used when, as @AG_PhamD posted, when two candidates were equal with the minority candidate getting the nod, that would have been fine for most people.

So long as you can have two people look at a set of candidates and rank them very differently from each other, I don't think you'll ever get the agreement you suggest in bold. And I think that's the crux of a lot of this. It's how we do the ranking that leads to unequal access to opportunities for folks in the first place. So if you don't happen to agree with how ranking happens under a policy like affirmative action, it sure looks like qualified people are being squeezed out, even if it isn't happening. This is the systemic bias.

I'm absolutely the wrong person to ask if affirmative action was the right policy to address this, but my thought is that at least it tried something rather than blindly assuming we already had a perfect meritocracy.
 

GermanSuplex

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I think that is because too many people saw it as quotas. And in some ways they would be right. Had it just been used when, as @AG_PhamD posted, when two candidates were equal with the minority candidate getting the nod, that would have been fine for most people.

I highly doubt it - there is a racist problem in America. Your take is reasonable, but it still presents unfairness in many instances, as affirmative action always has. Your take is a reasonable compromise. But it also ignores that minorities have problems getting to that equal spot in the first place. So in some ways, I think this forced ending of Affirmative Action presents a good challenge for democrats (and republicans to put their money where their mouth is when they say they want to help people, just not with things like AA) to work more on the root causes of disparities.

We could start taxing churches, stop giving tax breaks to massive corporations to lure their businesses, stop imprisoning people because they have pot, and start jailing white collar criminals with the same ferocity we do street criminals, and I think things would fix themselves pretty quickly. They’re simple things that have never been tried.

That would leave lots of room for lower costs of living, more money in education and social programs, and you don’t have to sacrifice capitalism to do so. Last time I checked, a fair tax rate wasn’t anti-capitalist. Nobody can present to me any compelling argument why a bus driver should have to pay a higher federal tax rate than a billionaire. If you think that’s too high, fine, have us pay the same tax rate. But it’s asinine to pay a lower amount the more wealth you amass.
 

Yoused

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The court ruled in favor of a website designer who did not want to code a site celebrating a gay couple's wedding, providing tremendous support for religious freedom and freeze peach.

However,

According to court filings, "Stewart"–the name of the person who allegedly contacted Smith's firm, 303 Design, via email in September 2016–wanted a website designed to celebrate his upcoming wedding to his partner, "Mike." According to the New Republic, Stewart's full name, contact information, and address were listed in the filing. When New Republic reporter Melissa Gira Grant called the listed number, she reached a man named Stewart who was very confused. (The outlet did not list the man's last name to protect his privacy.)

"I wouldn't want anybody to … make me a wedding website?" he said confused after the reporter told him he was the subject of the pending Supreme Court case. "I'm married [to a woman], I have a child - I'm not really sure where that came from? But somebody's using false information in a Supreme Court filing document."

it looks like the case may be based on fraud.
 
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