Any Unreal Engine Experts Here?

Renzatic

Egg Nog King of the Eastern Seaboard
Posts
3,905
Reaction score
6,836
Location
Dinosaurs
I've got the road mesh, and have started playing around with the material. There are a ton of little things I need to come to terms with, so it'll probably take me a bit to figure out the material fully.

...like why he has all these math nodes for the green vertex mask. That's usually pretty straightforward in Blender, but here he's using clamps and powers for reasons I'm not entirely sure of.

Here's what it currently looks like on my end.

UERoad.jpg
 

Huntn

Whatwerewe talk'n about?
Site Donor
Posts
5,288
Reaction score
5,232
Location
The Misty Mountains
I've got the road mesh, and have started playing around with the material. There are a ton of little things I need to come to terms with, so it'll probably take me a bit to figure out the material fully.

...like why he has all these math nodes for the green vertex mask. That's usually pretty straightforward in Blender, but here he's using clamps and powers for reasons I'm not entirely sure of.

Here's what it currently looks like on my end.

View attachment 9530
I know there is a master material, vertex painting, and some nodes for adding noise., and maybe a hundred other things. ;) I’m not asking you to figure this all out for me, but of course I appreciate what you have done already. If I can just look at this intact, with the nodes connected, I’m sure I can figure out eventually what processes are going on.

Now is there an easy way to get this to me? :):)
 

Renzatic

Egg Nog King of the Eastern Seaboard
Posts
3,905
Reaction score
6,836
Location
Dinosaurs
Now is there an easy way to get this to me? :)

It's easy to get into Unreal. First off, your Pastebin link doesn't lead to anything. This is the proper link here.


Or here for the raw text, which I recommend because you can just hit Ctrl-A to highlight everything, Ctrl-C to copy it, then Ctrl-V to paste it.


To get it into Unreal, open up your material in the Material Editor, hover the mouse over the node space, then hit Ctrl+V there. The text you highlighted above will magically turn into nodes, which you can then play with.

Though you still need to get some textures into there. You can import them into Unreal by either dragging and dropping them into your Content Browser, or by using Quixel Bridge to import them for you (after some setting up). I'd recommend the latter, since you get some high quality assets into your scene with a minimal amount of effort.

And if I were to recommend anything else, it'd be to use what you learn in the vertex painting video you posted earlier, and go from there. Going full tilt with a semi-complicated node tree will do nothing but frustrate you. Take baby steps. Learn how to lerp two materials together using vertex paints, THEN move on to the fancy transitions.

If it helps, think of setting up a node tree as being a lot like layering in Photoshop. You have your dirt material at the bottom of the stack. You add a grass material on top of it. You use lerps and vertex colors to create a basic mask that allows you to blend the two. Then you create a sub-layer on that mask to further refine your transition between your dirt and grass materials based upon some preset parimeters. In his case, he's mixing a noise texture with a gradient to get a splotchy falloff.

This is basically what the guy's doing with his nodes in the forest video. Nodes appear confusing at first because they're not easily readable to the unitiated. Instead of trying to figure them out all at once, break them down into a step by step by step process, and you'll be building fancy shaders in no time.

Also, this isn't a problem for me, because I'm using you to do something I've been meaning to do for awhile now: learn Unreal more. :p
 

DT

I am so Smart! S-M-R-T!
Posts
6,405
Reaction score
10,455
Location
Moe's
Main Camera
iPhone
@Renzatic

Dude, I have really been enjoying your posts in this thread, kind of makes me want to wade back into 3D design/development, er, if only I could skip sleeping ...
 

Huntn

Whatwerewe talk'n about?
Site Donor
Posts
5,288
Reaction score
5,232
Location
The Misty Mountains
It's easy to get into Unreal. First off, your Pastebin link doesn't lead to anything. This is the proper link here.


Or here for the raw text, which I recommend because you can just hit Ctrl-A to highlight everything, Ctrl-C to copy it, then Ctrl-V to paste it.


To get it into Unreal, open up your material in the Material Editor, hover the mouse over the node space, then hit Ctrl+V there. The text you highlighted above will magically turn into nodes, which you can then play with.

Though you still need to get some textures into there. You can import them into Unreal by either dragging and dropping them into your Content Browser, or by using Quixel Bridge to import them for you (after some setting up). I'd recommend the latter, since you get some high quality assets into your scene with a minimal amount of effort.

And if I were to recommend anything else, it'd be to use what you learn in the vertex painting video you posted earlier, and go from there. Going full tilt with a semi-complicated node tree will do nothing but frustrate you. Take baby steps. Learn how to lerp two materials together using vertex paints, THEN move on to the fancy transitions.

If it helps, think of setting up a node tree as being a lot like layering in Photoshop. You have your dirt material at the bottom of the stack. You add a grass material on top of it. You use lerps and vertex colors to create a basic mask that allows you to blend the two. Then you create a sub-layer on that mask to further refine your transition between your dirt and grass materials based upon some preset parimeters. In his case, he's mixing a noise texture with a gradient to get a splotchy falloff.

This is basically what the guy's doing with his nodes in the forest video. Nodes appear confusing at first because they're not easily readable to the unitiated. Instead of trying to figure them out all at once, break them down into a step by step by step process, and you'll be building fancy shaders in no time.

Also, this isn't a problem for me, because I'm using you to do something I've been meaning to do for awhile now: learn Unreal more. :p
I really do agree with you and thanks much. Baby steps, yep. And every video I watch where they put material nodes together, I don’t see anything overly complicated when the author takes the time to explain the whys and wherefores.

And compiling UE so you can install it, just to help me is going above and beyond, Goldstar dude! :D

1607275F-962B-46DA-B95C-F12BBEB4493C.jpeg
Renzatic
 

Renzatic

Egg Nog King of the Eastern Seaboard
Posts
3,905
Reaction score
6,836
Location
Dinosaurs
Dude, I have really been enjoying your posts in this thread, kind of makes me want to wade back into 3D design/development, er, if only I could skip sleeping ...

Hey, feel free to join in at anytime if you feel like it. :D

@Huntn I found this video while looking up vertex painting in UE. It does a good job of explaining what those mysterious set of vector math nodes does in the Forest video. In short, it's a height clamp, allowing you to blend textures according to their heightmaps. I'd go into more, but the video does a great job of illustrating it directly.

 

Renzatic

Egg Nog King of the Eastern Seaboard
Posts
3,905
Reaction score
6,836
Location
Dinosaurs
If there's one thing I really appreciate about Blender, it's how it provides a bunch of specific nodes specific to an action. You want to change the hue, saturation, and color on a texture? Use an HSL node!

In Unreal, it's like NO! FUCK YOU! USE MATH TO DO IT! And are RGB Color nodes called RGB Color nodes? NO! YOU GO TO HELL! IT'S CALLED A CONSTANT3!

...this is what happens when you let programmers design stuff.
 

Renzatic

Egg Nog King of the Eastern Seaboard
Posts
3,905
Reaction score
6,836
Location
Dinosaurs
Well, I've got the basics down, at least. Only two textures blended, but it's looking pretty alright.

I now know what the big deal with instanced materials is: every time you create a new mesh with an instance of your master material, it becomes its own unique surface. You can paint so much variety into your scenes using this. It's so cool.


UERoad.jpg
 

Huntn

Whatwerewe talk'n about?
Site Donor
Posts
5,288
Reaction score
5,232
Location
The Misty Mountains
Well, I've got the basics down, at least. Only two textures blended, but it's looking pretty alright.

I now know what the big deal with instanced materials is: every time you create a new mesh with an instance of your master material, it becomes its own unique surface. You can paint so much variety into your scenes using this. It's so cool.


View attachment 9561
I am going to try to get the master material copied and put into UE, who knows how long that link will remain. And then figure out the best way to store backups of textures. I suppose you just export them to a folder. Height mapping has a huge impact.
  • What textures did you use? How many textures can be use in this material?
  • Are you looking at packed channels in them? I remember a picture where he had a twigs texture and a leaves texture I though were packed into a single material.
Standby, many questions maybe coming. ;) I don’t necessarily want to try to use this master material right now, unless it is more or less functional when I paste it in.
If you added materials I’ll probably be asking where And what kind did you blend?
 

Renzatic

Egg Nog King of the Eastern Seaboard
Posts
3,905
Reaction score
6,836
Location
Dinosaurs
I am going to try to get the master material copied and put into UE, who knows how long that link will remain. And then figure out the best way to store backups of textures. I suppose you just export them to a folder. Height mapping has a huge impact.
  • What textures did you use? How many textures can be use in this material?
  • Are you looking at packed channels in them? I remember a picture where he had a twigs texture and a leaves texture I though were packed into a single material.
Standby, many questions maybe coming. ;) I don’t necessarily want to try to use this master material right now, unless it is more or less functional when I paste it in.
If you added materials I’ll probably be asking where And what kind did you blend?

I used a gravel and mossy grass texture from Megascans. Seriously, if you haven't already, Get Quixel Bridge, sign into it with your Epic account, and peruse until you can peruse no more.


Right now, I'm using 2 materials with 4 textures in them, an Albedo, Roughness, Normal, and Height. If 16 is the max amount of textures you can stack into a single shader, then I can get 4 full materials out of this one master. Moreso if I do channel packing. But since you're stuck with painting on 3 color channels, that's more than plenty.

Right now, I'm still playing around with it. I've already added a space for a 3rd material, but I haven't decided which one to use yet. It's fairly easy to do once you understand it, you just, er, lerp a lerp for the 3rd vertex color channel. Once I got the basics down, and I figure out how to group and annotate, I'll send it your way.

You'll have to add your own materials though. Learn how to do that in the meanwhile.
 
Last edited:

Huntn

Whatwerewe talk'n about?
Site Donor
Posts
5,288
Reaction score
5,232
Location
The Misty Mountains
I used a gravel and mossy grass texture from Megascans. Seriously, if you haven't already, Get Quixel Bridge, sign into it with your Epic account, and peruse until you can peruse no more.


Right now, I'm using 2 materials with 4 textures in them, an Albedo, Roughness, Normal, and Height. If 16 is the max amount of textures you can stack into a single shader, then I can get 4 full materials out of this one master. Moreso if I do channel packing. But since you're stuck with painting on 3 color channels, that's more than plenty.

Right now, I'm still playing around with it. I've already added a space for a 3rd material, but I haven't decided which one to use yet. It's fairly easy to do once you understand it, you just, er, lerp a lerp for the 3rd vertex color channel. Once I got the basics down, and I figure out how to group and annotate, I'll send it your way.

You'll have to add your own materials though. Learn how to do that in the meanwhile.
Quixel Bridge- HOT DAMN! :D
Ok, Imported this master material and it looks good…so far. I had an idea that you might be able to export this out of UE for safe keeping but what I’m seeimg is to export it as a .COPY or a .T3D file have you heard of those? I’m happy I snagged this material and eventually will start picking at it to figure out what all the nodes do.

Sometimes UE pops up a little tutorial. The upper right that looks like a top hat. i just did the one for Materials and it was helpful.

Learn how to pack materials?
I’ll check out your vertex painting video, the heightlerp is what I want to get a good look at. Thanks again! More to come…. Of course. 😁
 
Last edited:

Huntn

Whatwerewe talk'n about?
Site Donor
Posts
5,288
Reaction score
5,232
Location
The Misty Mountains
@Renzatic, that Vertex Painting Tutorial is stellar! Not only vertex painting, but Height Settings, Specular settings, UV settings , tesselation, and he had includes desaturation or something like that and it did not work so he removed those nodes. This 15 minute video has only taken me about 5 hours to get though it. I’m taking comprehensive notes, otherwise if I try to go back and repeat this based on memory, I’d be Duhhh… :oops:

There is a lot to know regarding materials, how to put the nodes together. This is the most complex aspect of the UE that I have run into so far.
 

Renzatic

Egg Nog King of the Eastern Seaboard
Posts
3,905
Reaction score
6,836
Location
Dinosaurs
There is a lot to know regarding materials, how to put the nodes together. This is the most complex aspect of the UE that I have run into so far.

At least until you get into programming, which is something you're gonna have to handle on your own. I am a not a coder.

So what all have you done so far? I haven't messed with UE much since I last posted the shot above, since I've started working on my own thing again in the meanwhile.

Also, I've read somewhere that Quixel Bridge can channel pack for you. I haven't read much about it beyond that, but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out, and when you do, it'll make your node trees considerably more manageable.
 

Huntn

Whatwerewe talk'n about?
Site Donor
Posts
5,288
Reaction score
5,232
Location
The Misty Mountains
At least until you get into programming, which is something you're gonna have to handle on your own. I am a not a coder.

So what all have you done so far? I haven't messed with UE much since I last posted the shot above, since I've started working on my own thing again in the meanwhile.

Also, I've read somewhere that Quixel Bridge can channel pack for you. I haven't read much about it beyond that, but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out, and when you do, it'll make your node trees considerably more manageable.
I don’t see myself getting into code. :unsure:

What have I done? Sadly just study and take notes, but I am getting close to making a move on the Forest floor. The master material used by the Forest scene author is very complicated. I have not yet decided if I need that level of complexity to get an outcome that I like.

And the Vertex Painting video link you posted in 146 is pretty incredible because it covers most of the aspects of master materials or maybe I should call it a material instance. That video show comprehensively how to make a material and apply settings to it, then how to work with it in the project.

The only thing not covered is packing channels, but I’m thinking that might not be needed for the Forest floor In this project. I remember when I was working with Blender, I was rushing through that just to get a mesh created. But for UE I felt it is necessary to have a decent handle on the ins and outs of materials so I am not stumbling about getting frustrated. That video went along way to get me semi-fluent in the mechanics of materials, it takes a while for me to produce the comprehensive reference notes I want, and there is still a ton to learn.

However, I’m not expecting to learn a ton before I start, just enough that I can feel semi-confident in what I am doing. And It’s not as if I am applying myself 8 hours per day learning this. I have a couple more sections of the official UE Tutorial to cover, one small section of the Vertex Painting tutorial and then I’ll seriously move on the Forest project.

Now, regarding your experimentation with the Master material from the Forest Scene video, do you remember anything about it? Now that I know more watching the Vertex Painting Material, I know that you need associated texture maps: normal, diffuse, height, roughness, etc so if the material structure we downloaded from the Forest scene video is minus the actual textures, then I will be looking at blank texture samples, I think, and have to figure out what kind of textures I need to plug into them.

In the Vertex Painting tutorial the author has 2 textures (materials?) which included 5 maps: a grass map normal, grass map diffused, tile map normal, tile map diffused, tile map height. So that is 5 maps each producing a texture sample node in material used in the Vertex Painting tutorial.

So soon, I’ll be looking at the Forest Scene tutorial trying to pick that apart, guessing what kind of maps were plugged into which texture sample nodes. As I said, it is very possible, that for me at this stage, the Forest tutorial material is overkill. And it’s likely I’ll be able to use the Vertex Painting tutorial material to produce a satisfactory result. Stay toned. :D
 

Renzatic

Egg Nog King of the Eastern Seaboard
Posts
3,905
Reaction score
6,836
Location
Dinosaurs
You know what? I'm gonna try a different tact on this.

See, Blender's node setup is much, MUCH easier to wrap your head around (though admittedly, I might be saying this just because I'm used to it), and easier to follow, thanks to the colored noodles. They both do the exact same things, so if you're able to understand the basics of what's going on in one, you'll be able to repeat it in the other.

So I just did some vertex painting in Blender with some Megascan assets. I'll upload the .blend file here in a second, but here's a shot of the node tree and results in the meanwhile.


RoadBlender.jpg


And what you're actually painting is this:

VertexBlend.png
 
Last edited:

Renzatic

Egg Nog King of the Eastern Seaboard
Posts
3,905
Reaction score
6,836
Location
Dinosaurs
...and the file. I really shouldn't be distributing this, since it has Megascan files in it, but hell, you and some people here are gonna be the only ones who'll see this, and you can all get them anyway.

 

Huntn

Whatwerewe talk'n about?
Site Donor
Posts
5,288
Reaction score
5,232
Location
The Misty Mountains
...and the file. I really shouldn't be distributing this, since it has Megascan files in it, but hell, you and some people here are gonna be the only ones who'll see this, and you can all get them anyway.

I appreciate this effort, but I’m going to leave blender set aside until I reach a defined (maybe perceived) threshold In UE. I don’t need to be muddling my brain with competing 3D graphic programs at this point. . :)

I’m not saying that UE is overly difficult, I just need to see the node explanations and examples of how they work with each other as provided in that Vertex Painting tutorial. That is outstanding.

I may just hold off on the Forest Scene master material for now, but if you remember which type of maps you inserted into it, and where based on your educated guesses, this would be good info, but I am not asking you to break out UE again and do a lot of work with that material to provide me with answers. :)
 

Huntn

Whatwerewe talk'n about?
Site Donor
Posts
5,288
Reaction score
5,232
Location
The Misty Mountains
Update: Issue resolved
In the Material UV Multiplyer area, specifically the Scalar Parameter, the Grass Default was reverted to 0.0. Putting it back to 1.0 gave me my grass texture back. :D

I really don’t expect an answer from you @Renzatic but last night after 4 hours finishing up the Vertex Painting tutorial, the author made a suggestion on how to group related nodes, so I highlightEd all of my grass nodes and instead of grouping them I ended up renaming them, and then the grass texture stopped working.

I fixed all the node names, but in the viewfinder instead of seeing grass, I’m seeing just a blob of green minus the texture. I’ve tried reinserting the texture but that’s no good. I see no apparpant changes in the node wiring. And I realize without a first hand copy of the material, it would be difficult to troubleshoot this, but if there is a possibility that it is apparant and easily answered I’m throwing this out for you. :D

But I realize UE is not your forte, and I don’t want you breaking out UE to help if that is your inclination. What I’ll end up doing is rebuilding this material from scratch and then learn the best way to export things like this to a file so when I screw up I can actually recover, without starting from scratch. Even though UE has a “go back” feature, it does not seem to want to fix this and maybe I’ll learn something starting this material over…:unsure:
 
Last edited:

Renzatic

Egg Nog King of the Eastern Seaboard
Posts
3,905
Reaction score
6,836
Location
Dinosaurs
I’m not saying that UE is overly difficult, I just need to see the node explanations and examples of how they work with each other as provided in that Vertex Painting tutorial. That is outstanding.

The one thing that might help you the most is to break it down to it's most basic settings. In this case, the color/albedo textures. When you get right down to it, what' you're basically doing is repeating the same thing three or more times for each image that makes up a material.

Here's a shot of my material in UE, lerp only the three images in the albedo channel. If it looks like I'm covering old ground, or being condescending, don't be offended. I'm just trying to demystify the whole process as much as possible.

BasicVertex.jpg


The nodes on the far left are probably the most mysterious. All they're doing is taking the UV map, and using a parameter to multiply it to shrink and grow the texture on your surface. This is good for those times when you grab a neat material you like, but it turns out it's out of scale with the rest of your stuff, giving you some HUGE ASS leaves or whatnot. 1 is UV x 1, or no change. 2 is UV x 2, or the texture repeated 2 by 2 times on the surface, 3 is UV x 3, or the texture repeated 3 by 3 times on your surface, and etc. etc.

The next stop on the noodle path is your image texture node (called Texture Sample in UE). In this case, your albedo. It's the texture that'll show up on your surfaces.

Further on down, you hit your lerp. This is where the magic happens. You want to blend two textures, your A and B. So you hook your nodes into socket A on the lerp, copy and paste them down below, add a new texture into your image texture node, and plug this new set of nodes into socket B.

Now you need a parameter to tell the engine how and where to blend these two nodes together. That's done by plugging a single color channel, in this case red, from the Vertex Color node into the alpha socket on the lerp node. This tells the engine that when you paint red in the vertex color channel, your 2nd texture will appear there. The topmost texture will go to the next undefined socket, which in this case is green. Now, when you paint red, you get your gravel, green will give you grass.

But you want that third texture, right? That's easy. Just lerp again. Copy one set of texture coordinates and image texture nodes, paste it down below, lead the Image Texture node to your 3rd texture, and hook your initial lerp to A, and your new texture to B onto another lerp. To define where it goes, take the blue color channel socket, and plug it the alpha on your 2nd lerp.

Why blue instead of green? Remember, the topmost texture defaults to the undefined color. I wanted green to be grass, so I made the 3rd texture blue.

Now, you can paint red, green, and blue on your surface to mix your grass, gravel, and dirt.

But what if you want to add in a roughness map, make your simple images more materially? Copy the image nodes and lerps above, and paste them down below your initial three. Change your textures so that the roughness image on A corresponds to the albedo on A, and so on and so on. You don't want to copy your Vertex Colors node, because you can just reuse it. Drag it down, and plug Red and Blue into the appropriate lerps.

But what about your texture coordinates? Well, you don't want your roughness map image to scale differently than its corresponding albedo. You'll want them to share the same size and space. To do that, just link your first texture coordinate nodes to the first set on your albedo and roughness, and repeat accordingly.

You'll end up with something like this:

BasicVertex2.jpg


For any other maps, just repeat the process, and plug the new lerps into their appropriate socket on the material node at the end.

BasicVertex3.jpg


So you can see what you're doing here. You're making a material out of three materials, and setting parameters to tell it how to blend the various parts of these materials together. Like I said, it's very simple, it just looks complicated because you're defining every little thing step by step by step.

Yeah, you probably gathered this from the videos you've watched, but I'm really wanting to hammer down the very basics here, to make triply sure you understand how this all works. Once you get the basics down, you can expand upon it, and start getting truly fancy.

The reason why I initially wanted to show you how to do things in Blender is because it's basically doing the same thing, but it's easier to follow, since it abstracts a lot of fiddly bits.
 

Renzatic

Egg Nog King of the Eastern Seaboard
Posts
3,905
Reaction score
6,836
Location
Dinosaurs
And I realize without a first hand copy of the material, it would be difficult to troubleshoot this, but if there is a possibility that it is apparant and easily answered I’m throwing this out for you.

A screenshot would be handy here. If you're in Windows, you can make one by hitting Winkey + Prntscrn. It'll pop it over into your pictures folder.
 
Top Bottom
1 2