Guns are still America’s religion

AG_PhamD

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None of us individually can solve this. What we can do cumulatively is never ever vote for a person who supports the NRA. As long as people keep voting for them, these NRA-sponsored politicians will keep allowing our children to be murdered.

When Congress refused to act in 2012, they GUARANTEED that Sandy Hook would NOT be once-in-a-lifetime.

Empathy and respect are honorable things to offer: do you think a single person whose lives were touched by such a tragedy wants looser gun laws? If we truly empathize with them and respect them, we should make it as difficult as possible for people to get guns, and we should ban assault weapons completely.

I can’t speak to what victims and those affected by these events want. I would imagine most people want a higher level of gun control as that’s what most Americans (including NRA members) want. But you still have a population who think more guns is the answer to gun violence.

If we are to believe the surveys about peoples opinion on greater gun control laws, the NRA and many of the right wing politicians stance on this does not align with the majority of their constituents.

The motivation for change first and foremost should be the mass killing of innocent people and it’s all the worse when children are the target.

Out of respect for the victims and all the others affected, I think the appropriate tact is one that’s realistic. And it’s not realistic at this point in time to ban all guns is remotely feasible and as unnecessary as I think assault riffles are, that would still very much be a reach. If the argument is to make guns as “difficult as possible” to acquire will only stagnate any chance of change. We can’t have this devolve to an for/against absolutist debate.

In my opinion, the fact should be “as difficult as possible for those who should never have their hands on a gun”. So many pro-gun politicians say they want this, so it’s easier to hold their feet to the fire with it.

At the very least if assault riffles (or let’s say ALL semi-automatic weapons) should be held to the same standard as pistols are in most states. Minimum age 21 (unless military or police). Required training through a licensed instructor. Required interview with local police. Police must interview friends and neighbors of applicant. Had even one of these been mandatory for the perpetrator this whole scenario very likely could have been avoided. And as these laws exist in most states, applying them to all semi-auto weapons should not be much of a stretch.

The claim by some politicians nothing can be done is absolutely ridiculous- or that that the only answer is to “fortify” schools is the only answer. Schools should obviously have a reasonable degree of building security- but it’s a school, there’s no reason it should need to be designed like embassy. Nor should there have to be a swat team member on site full time. The fact that even suggestions are made indicates there is a serious problem.

That said, I’m not convinced the majority of our partisan leadership in particular can even have a mature conversation about this topic. These tragedies are too exploited for political reasons than actually catalyzing meaningful change.
 

GermanSuplex

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Watching Ted Cruz - who is supposed to be answering questions on what he’s doing and how he’s going to address this (it’s his state, after all ) - and all he can do is offer two generic talking points and then runs away. “You’re politicizing it” and “Democrat laws wouldn’t have stopped this”. Ok, then what will?


Now would be a good time for democrats to say that if we’re going to dismantle a woman’s autonomy over her own body, then guns should be fair game too.
 

The-Real-Deal82

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Ted Cruz is being used to demonstrate how weak gun supporting American politicians are today. He couldn’t answer questions from Sky News and did the two standard deflections. The first was to accuse the person questioning as having a different political agenda and second was to make the claim America is the best country in the world. Embarrassing.
 

DT

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There's also of course the trauma that is building for a thing no one rightfully could anticipate.


And exactly WTF do these idiots think they're doing? Walking around with a gun strapped to their back? That's not any kind of tactical preparedness, that's to make a statement, that's for some kind of attempt to intimidate other people. Seriously, anyone with a touch of training would take the firearm away from the idiot in the blue shirt and beat the idiot with the green shirt unconsciousness in about 30 seconds. These two halfwits are about as prepared for any real emergency as most of the out shape, mouth breathing fuckwits pretending to be soldiers on the weekend.

It's all so stupid, the only thing any of these people are doing is causing unrest, trauma for people, they're not doing anything to stop violence, they're causing it to fester, and let me guess, if a person of color did something they disagreed with, then that firearm wouldn't be part of the reaction? Fuck these people and Target too, if they allow that.
 

Eric

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JFC, the 80 year old Ukrainians fighting for their children and grandchildren's freedom would've handled this 1000 time better.
Finally actually saw the report on ABC News and I don't care what side of the aisle one is on, the fact that armed officers waited outside of that school for nearly an hour while knowing there was an active shooter in there is outrageous. They showed them standing out there, many in vests, just keeping people out as they waited for the border patrol, unbelievable. Every last one of them should be charged.
 

SuperMatt

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Finally actually saw the report on ABC News and I don't care what side of the aisle one is on, the fact that armed officers waited outside of that school for nearly an hour while knowing there was an active shooter in there is outrageous. They showed them standing out there, many in vests, just keeping people out as they waited for the border patrol, unbelievable. Every last one of them should be charged.
https://www.twitter.com/i/web/status/1530012847694131200/

Good guys with guns? Not any in this tragedy.
 

AG_PhamD

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Finally actually saw the report on ABC News and I don't care what side of the aisle one is on, the fact that armed officers waited outside of that school for nearly an hour while knowing there was an active shooter in there is outrageous. They showed them standing out there, many in vests, just keeping people out as they waited for the border patrol, unbelievable. Every last one of them should be charged.

Yes, totally unacceptable. I thought this whole procedure was worked out after Columbine… and Parkland… and probably others- you don’t wait for backup, period. If you’re not prepared to go into a building with a gunman killing children, being a police officer isn’t for you. I don’t wish that experience on any police officer, but it’s the reality we live in and police should must be prepared. I don’t know how you can live with the knowledge you didn’t do everything you could. Even the police that indeed do the right thing in deadly situations often beat themselves up for not being able to save everyone.

You also have to wonder not only how many victims could have have been spared from being shot, but how many shot victims would have survived had medical care been rendered sooner. I’m sure everyone has heard of the “golden hour” in relation to trauma care. Quite a number of patients were transferred at least as far as San Antonio for care at Level 1 trauma centers and even a military hospital- about 85mi/1.5hrs away by road. I assume TX has a higher than average number of EMS helicopters but that’s irrelevant when victims are bleeding out for an hour.

I still am not sure it’s entirely clear what happened with the police response. But it doesn’t look good given the lack of clarity and apparent obfuscation of facts.

I saw a clip from Fox News today where Greg Gutfeld, one of the worst personalities on TV, actually flirted with the idea of raising the age to purchase all guns to 21. Quite a fascinating opinion coming from Fox News. Maybe there is a silver of hope for some sensible reform.
 
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Herdfan

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Just to clarify, my :mad: are for what you posted, not for the poster.

When the cops are restraining unarmed parents who are wanting to rush into the schools, there is a problem. Those officers need to be fired.

Maybe TV has given us an unrealistic idea of cops running towards shooters, but we count on the police to protect us and they failed.
 

GermanSuplex

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Maybe TV has given us an unrealistic idea of cops running towards shooters, but we count on the police to protect us and they failed.

Agreed. But I would also add that this also looks worse for two reasons:

-One, the officials either lied or were grossly misinformed when they said the gunman was confronted by a resource officer. He wasn’t. He hung out at the school, fired at people across the street, walked around a bit, then entered unobstructed.

-The rhetoric of “only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun”. Well, there were good guys with guns at Parkland. Didn’t help. The cops in Uvalde said they couldn’t enter the building because they were being fired at. That’s a tacit admission that could guys with guns can’t always stop a bad guy with a gun - especially an assault-style weapon.

Our lax gun laws, social media and tense political climate have merged to create a really scary and ugly pandemic. The more it happens, the more widespread I fear it will become.
 

Herdfan

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-One, the officials either lied or were grossly misinformed when they said the gunman was confronted by a resource officer. He wasn’t. He hung out at the school, fired at people across the street, walked around a bit, then entered unobstructed.

This right here. How did this happen?

Supposedly he entered through an unlocked door in the rear of the building. The school officials are going to have to answer some serious questions.

For anyone who has had kids in school in the past 10 years, how hard was it to get into their school? We had to be buzzed in to the office, then after producing ID and a valid reason to be there, you then get buzzed into the school.
 

GermanSuplex

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This right here. How did this happen?

Supposedly he entered through an unlocked door in the rear of the building. The school officials are going to have to answer some serious questions.

For anyone who has had kids in school in the past 10 years, how hard was it to get into their school? We had to be buzzed in to the office, then after producing ID and a valid reason to be there, you then get buzzed into the school.

There’s video of him entering the building.



Even after Columbine, that was not possible in schools in my public school district. In 1997, you could go off campus for lunch, come to school early or stay late and walk the halls. By 2000, we had student ID and two points of entry with unarmed guards or off-official duty police who freelanced at the school. If you came early or stayed late, you did so in the commons area. So the fact he could just walk into an unlocked door - after having just crashed a vehicle and roaming around the school first - is pretty crazy. Especially since I read that Uvalde school district had done a LOT of things right leading up to this. If you read what they had in place, this seemed like a top-notch school district. They have their own police force, they had training for these events, all sorts of staff and technology.. it’s wild. And yet, here we are.

Perhaps, just maybe, it IS the guns that are part of the problem. More than one thing can be true at once. Gun defenders point to other issues… maybe it’s all true. But continuing to pretend it’s NOT the guns is sort of naive. Like an alcoholic who tries everything to get their life on track - except giving up alcohol - then wondering why things keep getting worse.
 

Citysnaps

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People who own assault weapons and continue to vote for GOP politicians who take money from the NRA, do so knowing nothing will change, and there will be no gun control legislation. As a result, based on history, future school and other gun massacres with more deaths are pretty much guaranteed.

Those voters and politicians have reduced massacred children to being mere adverse consequences of preserving their constitutional right to own assault weapons. That their constitutional right is often expressed with smugness with little reflection or thought about those suffering the consequences feels very sociopathic.
 

Herdfan

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People who own assault weapons and continue to vote for GOP politicians who take money from the NRA, do so knowing nothing will change, and there will be no gun control legislation. As a result, based on history, future school and other gun massacres with more deaths are pretty much guaranteed.

Those voters and politicians have reduced massacred children to being mere adverse consequences of preserving their constitutional right to own assault weapons. That their constitutional right is often expressed with smugness with little reflection or thought about those suffering the consequences feels very sociopathic.

I think you are putting too much on the GOP. There are plenty of Dems who would not vote for gun restrictions. I mean the Dems had control of Congress AND 60 votes in the Senate AND Obama. Why didn't they pass gun control then? They passed the ACA which cost many members their seats. So why not pass gun control?
 

SuperMatt

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There’s video of him entering the building.



Even after Columbine, that was not possible in schools in my public school district. In 1997, you could go off campus for lunch, come to school early or stay late and walk the halls. By 2000, we had student ID and two points of entry with unarmed guards or off-official duty police who freelanced at the school. If you came early or stayed late, you did so in the commons area. So the fact he could just walk into an unlocked door - after having just crashed a vehicle and roaming around the school first - is pretty crazy. Especially since I read that Uvalde school district had done a LOT of things right leading up to this. If you read what they had in place, this seemed like a top-notch school district. They have their own police force, they had training for these events, all sorts of staff and technology.. it’s wild. And yet, here we are.

Perhaps, just maybe, it IS the guns that are part of the problem. More than one thing can be true at once. Gun defenders point to other issues… maybe it’s all true. But continuing to pretend it’s NOT the guns is sort of naive. Like an alcoholic who tries everything to get their life on track - except giving up alcohol - then wondering why things keep getting worse.

It’s sad that we have to ask “how did a person get into the school”? Because in 2022, we have to make sure to protect schools in America as if they were in the middle of war zones.

Too many people love guns more than children. I am appalled that people are still going to the NRA convention. Everybody should boycott it, but I guess there are plenty who probably see this as an opportunity to increase sales, due to the fear.

Fuck the gun nuts. Put in the most restrictive gun laws possible under the constitution. The school resource officers, “mental health” promises, etc, etc... haven’t done ANYTHING. It has only gotten worse and worse.

Doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. Time to do something different; restrict guns as much as possible!
 

AG_PhamD

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Looks like the Texas DPH is admitting the local police failed to breach the classroom and take down the shooter because the on-scene commander assumed everyone was dead despite 911 receiving phone calls people are still alive.

The first tragedy is that the clearly disturbed perpetrator was able to buy a gun, the second was shooting, the police not properly responding is the third. Let’s not have the fourth tragedy be that no changes to gun laws come out of this.
 
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