Is Free Speech All That It is Cracked Up To Be?

Free Speech

  • …should be unlimited without regulation.

    Votes: 1 16.7%
  • …should be regulated to insist upon truth as a required standard.

    Votes: 2 33.3%
  • Other (explain)

    Votes: 1 16.7%
  • Undecide

    Votes: 2 33.3%

  • Total voters
    6
  • Poll closed .

SuperMatt

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That's the problem, FB gives Uncle Ronny an oversized microphone. He may only have a few followers, but all it takes is a couple to share it. Then their like minded friends start sharing it and before you know it, it has been seen by thousands.

I posted a link about a riding area that may be closed. Within an hour it had close to 50 shares. Into groups. No idea how many shares from those groups. It can be in front of many people, very quickly.
This is small potatoes compared to the real problem... Uncle Ronny is not posting his own idea. He’s posting something from one of the news aggregator sites that always get into the top 10 of daily posts on Facebook. There are a million Uncle Ronnies “sharing" exactly the same thing, put forward by a 3rd party that specializes in disinformation. They need to go after the big fake news proliferators. Then each crazy uncle Ronny can spread his lies to a limited audience, and those lies will be different from the next drunk uncle, and none of them will really be much of a problem outside of a relatively small circle.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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Or a copy of the Constitution. Although, given how partisan everything is, I don't think I will ever see another amendment pass. Not sure my daughter will either. :(

What amendments would you like to see? Do you see the current ones as written in stone?

Although absurd, it's not too far from the truth. He also used the same type of argument pro-slave southerns probably used in comparison to pro 2nd amendment supporters today "Why should you take my slaves away? I'm a responsible slave owner. I'm trained on how to use my slaves properly. Just because he mistreats his slaves doesn't mean you can take my rights away from me. I use my slaves to protect my family. I keep my slaves locked in a safe."
 

Herdfan

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What amendments would you like to see? Do you see the current ones as written in stone?

Although absurd, it's not too far from the truth. He also used the same type of argument pro-slave southerns probably used in comparison to pro 2nd amendment supporters today "Why should you take my slaves away? I'm a responsible slave owner. I'm trained on how to use my slaves properly. Just because he mistreats his slaves doesn't mean you can take my rights away from me. I use my slaves to protect my family. I keep my slaves locked in a safe."

None come to mind but even if one did, there is no way it would ever pass. The bar is too high.

But the current ones can be amended by the same process. So sure, the 2A can be repealed, but again the bar is very high.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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None come to mind but even if one did, there is no way it would ever pass. The bar is too high.

But the current ones can be amended by the same process. So sure, the 2A can be repealed, but again the bar is very high.

I believe the common citizens, left or right, agree on more things than we don’t. It just matters who says it, how they say it, and the media and politicians always scrape the extreme bottom of the barrel to paint who they find as the spokesperson for millions of people.

The left seems to point all their outrage at corporations and the rich while the media would have you believe the right points all theirs at the poor and immigrants, but I’ve seen plenty of interviews of people on the right who are equally pissed at the rich and corporations. Won’t give a lot of air time to those people though because that doesn’t further drive the divide. For all we know 80% of pro 2nd amendment people agree we should put more limitations or bans on certain guns but the media will only hand the mic to the 20% yelling “Fuck you! You can’t take my guns!” to any mention of gun reform.
 

SuperMatt

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I believe the common citizens, left or right, agree on more things than we don’t. It just matters who says it, how they say it, and the media and politicians always scrape the extreme bottom of the barrel to paint who they find as the spokesperson for millions of people.

The left seems to point all their outrage at corporations and the rich while the media would have you believe the right points all theirs at the poor and immigrants, but I’ve seen plenty of interviews of people on the right who are equally pissed at the rich and corporations. Won’t give a lot of air time to those people though because that doesn’t further drive the divide. For all we know 80% of pro 2nd amendment people agree we should put more limitations or bans on certain guns but the media will only hand the mic to the 20% yelling “Fuck you! You can’t take my guns!” to any mention of gun reform.
Actually, we do know that most people (including about 3/4 of NRA members) support things like universal background checks. GOP members of Congress do NOT accurately represent their constituents.

 

Herdfan

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I believe the common citizens, left or right, agree on more things than we don’t. It just matters who says it, how they say it, and the media and politicians always scrape the extreme bottom of the barrel to paint who they find as the spokesperson for millions of people.

The left seems to point all their outrage at corporations and the rich while the media would have you believe the right points all theirs at the poor and immigrants, but I’ve seen plenty of interviews of people on the right who are equally pissed at the rich and corporations. Won’t give a lot of air time to those people though because that doesn’t further drive the divide. For all we know 80% of pro 2nd amendment people agree we should put more limitations or bans on certain guns but the media will only hand the mic to the 20% yelling “Fuck you! You can’t take my guns!” to any mention of gun reform.

Said this for years. I do not understand why the middle 60% lets the 20% outliers on each side dictate things.

There have been several posts boasting at both this site and the old PRSI that the GOP is losing voters. This is true, but they aren't going Dem either. They are going Independent. Hopefully at some point we can have the middle 60 running things.
 

SuperMatt

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Said this for years. I do not understand why the middle 60% lets the 20% outliers on each side dictate things.

There have been several posts boasting at both this site and the old PRSI that the GOP is losing voters. This is true, but they aren't going Dem either. They are going Independent. Hopefully at some point we can have the middle 60 running things.
It’s very simple. The GOP members keep pushing farther to the right out of fear of getting “primaried” in the next election. Only the hyper-partisans show up for primaries usually… so you’re getting the extremists picking the party reps. IMHO, Democrats think more about “electability” in their primaries.
 
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None come to mind but even if one did, there is no way it would ever pass. The bar is too high.

But the current ones can be amended by the same process. So sure, the 2A can be repealed, but again the bar is very high.
Bar’s not too high. As America stands today, the bar’s bloody unatainable.

Even the most benign Amendment proposal today is unliekly to get anywhere in today’s hyper-partisan America. There’s Amendments sitting out there for decades that never made it through and anything even remotly contencious has currently a zero chance of making the cut. Hell, i’d not put money on getting one passed that simply confirmed that 1 + 1 = 2.

Edit: Maths is hard
 
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User.191

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Said this for years. I do not understand why the middle 60% lets the 20% outliers on each side dictate things.

There have been several posts boasting at both this site and the old PRSI that the GOP is losing voters. This is true, but they aren't going Dem either. They are going Independent. Hopefully at some point we can have the middle 60 running things.
You may be somewhat right, but given how hard the right has veered into crazy town, those independants are more liekly to then vote Democrat in a 2 hourse race.
 

SuperMatt

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Also, I believe partisan gerrymandering is making things worse. A district is engineered to end up red or blue. If districts were not drawn this way, a politician would have to be more moderate to win a district.
 
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User.191

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Also, I believe partisan gerrymandering is making things worse. A district is engineered to end up red or blue. If districts were not drawn this way, a politician would have to be more moderate to win a district.

For evidence I give you Ohio District 1. Once a strong Democratic seat, the GOP recarved the borders and created the thinnest of all lines to join the Liberal Westside with the more populous and affulent Conservative Warren County.

Instant turnaround and guranteed wins for GOP Steve Chabot.

He’s announced he’s not running for another term. In other totally coincidental news, District One has been ordered to be redrawn by the courst before the 2024 elections.
 

SuperMatt

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For evidence I give you Ohio District 1. Once a strong Democratic seat, the GOP recarved the borders and created the thinnest of all lines to join the Liberal Westside with the more populous and affulent Conservative Warren County.

Instant turnaround and guranteed wins for GOP Steve Chabot.

He’s announced he’s not running for another term. In other totally coincidental news, District One has been ordered to be redrawn by the courst before the 2024 elections.
I feel caught by this. To overturn this, we need to pass a law in Congress. But we can’t pass a law because of the gerrymandering keeping our voices from being heard…
 
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User.191

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I feel caught by this. To overturn this, we need to pass a law in Congress. But we can’t pass a law because of the gerrymandering keeping our voices from being heard…

Not sure that even matters anyway. The country used to be ‘by the people, for the people’ but with the utterly redicolous amount of money put into lobbying these days - along with ‘Citizens United’, America now feels like it’s first and foremost ‘by the lobbyists, for the organizations”.

If I got a say in the matter (which I don’t) I’d want an amendment to make spending by any one company to be capped at $500,000 (for the entire enterprise) for ALL lobbying AND political ‘support’ and make dark money contributions totally illegal.

Of course, none of the organizations would allow anything to prevent them from doing the exact opposite, so it’s got zero chance.
 

Huntn

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The question is who gets to decide on what is mis or dis information?

Just because something goes against the popular or accepted narrative does not mean it is wrong.


If someone on FB makes a blanket statement about how harmful the vaccines are, then perhaps. But when a famous rocker says he might never play the guitar again and it corresponds with him getting vaccinated, is that misinformation?
A famous rocket claims that getting vaccinated ruined his ability to play guitar? By chance have a link?
 

lizkat

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The question is who gets to decide on what is mis or dis information?

Just because something goes against the popular or accepted narrative does not mean it is wrong.

In media outlets with published standards, journalists (and editors of their work) make those calls every day while seeking to present facts in their reporting, or checking facts while editing columns and op-eds.

But in the end it's the individual who must apply critical thinking to try to know what is factual.

There is also a level of trust implied, since most of us are not experts in more than one or two fields of knowledge, at best. Apparently right now that's a big problem: we're not expert at most things, but we don't trust anybody else including actual experts either.

Trump aimed for us to trust only him. Most of us didn't ever trust him, since he racked up so many easily certifiable lies, but he did convince a lot of people not to trust anyone else either. A very damaging effort, and outcome. Could take a long time to recover from it.

But for purposes of exposition of facts. the decision on what's factual is usually arrived at via consensus... typically a panel of experts on the particular topic for a TV show, or "three credible sources" for a point in a news article, etc. Sometimes they're wrong, and get called out on it, and have to publish corrections.

This process including corrections is not always as complicated or time consuming as some would like to make it. In the era of social media especially, request for factual correction can pop into a newspaper's in-box in a matter of minutes, and get made within the hour. In reviews of articles in professional journals, of course corrections can take longer. And then we have evolution of scientific explanations of the physical world we live in, making and testing hypotheses, filling in the gaps. Some of that stuff has taken centuries already. Advances are fast enough in life sciences though that almost everything I learned about cell biology 30 years ago is likely wrong.

If Facebook wants to be a curator of news, maybe they need to poach some people away from a place with those standards I mentioned in opening this post. Reuters, the AP, any mainstream newspaper....

But, I'll concede that being factual is not usually a priority for propaganda artists, nor for miscreants who just want to throw a spanner into the wheels for the hell of it (aka trolls). The former, if they are expert, are often aware of facts but specialize in minimizing the impact of a set of facts by use of language that offers some other desired and compelling context. As for trolls, well they can have a variety of purposes including just killing time but it doesn't make them less dangerous sometimes.

How to regulate speech by propagandists and miscreants? In the end it's best done as a community effort. That can be uneven but it happens all the time. Community standards do tend to point to a consensus on particular issues. They may not be the same all over the place, either, just as views on politics differ from one place to another. But you can find examples of it all over social media if you sift through the posts. Sure there are threads filled with echo chamber BS. But there are also threads filled with posts from people citing facts from credible sources, offering their own professional expertise in support of someone else's critique of a dodgy-looking assertion made by yet someone else, etc.

Researchers have come up with data on certain types of misinformation, and discovered that a lot of it is sourced to a surprisingly small number of individuals. Vaccine hoax material was largely sourced to only a dozen people, and yet it has been all over the net... but when that was reported, Facebook did take those accounts down. So it's not impossible for disinformation to be mitigated by whoever owns a venue although the data behind the misinfo might be collected and presented by other entities.

 

lizkat

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Efforts to call out disinformation are long since bumping into what may amount to an infinity of mirrors during attempts to apply critical thinking and to determine credible sources for news and other information made available to the public.

The Boston Globe has a piece up about a whole shadow industry of disinformation for hire. An appealing attribute of such a service for whoever buys it, of course, may be increased deniability against accusations of spreading disinformation. Potential backlash and dangers of buying disinformation services may not be immediately apparent, regardless if the buyer is an individual, corporation, government or would-be usurper of government. The piece doesn't bury the lede but its punchline at the wrap is right on the money:

... firms organized around deceit may be just as likely to turn those energies toward their clients, bloating budgets and billing for work that never gets done.

“The bottom line is that grifters are going to grift online."


There's a requirement in traditional banking systems to "know your client". In purchasing disinformation, the onus would seem to be on the self-protective buyer to try to know more about the seller, since professional willingness to peddle tailor-made disinformation is about as shadowy as engaging in sale of street versions of scheduled drugs.
 
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User.191

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Efforts to call out disinformation are long since bumping into what may amount to an infinity of mirrors during attempts to apply critical thinking and to determine credible sources for news and other information made available to the public.

The Boston Globe has a piece up about a whole shadow industry of disinformation for hire. An appealing attribute of such a service for whoever buys it, of course, may be increased deniability against accusations of spreading disinformation. Potential backlash and dangers of buying disinformation services may not be immediately apparent, regardless if the buyer is an individual, corporation, government or would-be usurper of government. The piece doesn't bury the lede but its punchline at the wrap is right on the money:




There's a requirement in traditional banking systems to "know your client". In purchasing disinformation, the onus would seem to be on the self-protective buyer to try to know more about the seller, since professional willingness to peddle tailor-made disinformation is about as shadowy as engaging in sale of street versions of scheduled drugs.
This is the scary new world we live in. Time was information was relatively scarce and what little there was was expensive to produce if it were to be consumed by the general population. Whilst there was always crackpots out to further their own cause, they had limited bandwidth so they were lept on the fringe.

Now any idiot can be a 'publisher' - nad many are: they happily regurgitate the first thing they come across with zero concern as to its validity. With social media facilitating, they can become a mouthpiece for the stupidity.

When it comes to the human brain, facts and lies are measured differently. A fact seemingly needs to be repeated by a huge amount of people to drown out the lies.

Facts require by their nature validation and proof - they take time to confirm and sometimes they can be messy and need refinement.

Lies require no such effort: a lie can propagate around the globe in 24 hours - and they've been elevated to 'facts' by the gullible before the real facts have a chance to take seed.
 

SondraHenfling

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As long as you do not violate the rights of others and do not offend, you have the right to free speech. If we are speaking about this topic, politicians are best known for the idea of freedom of speech. And they are also the ones who dare to lie to us and promise us many things. When, in fact, they do things that do not align with the principles of a politician. Corruption! Read here is an example https://calgaryherald.com/news/poli...rek-fildebrandt-wont-be-allowed-back-into-ucp of a corrupted politician.
 
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Renzatic

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As long as you do not violate the rights of others, and do not offend, you have the right to free speech

Well, people do have a nominal right to offend, in the sense that the government can't lock you up for doing so, but others do have the right to refuse to associate with you if you choose to be offensive.
 
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