Russia-Ukraine

AG_PhamD

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Regarding Afghanistan I wonder how it would have looked politically if Trump had been there to finish out his version? We know it would have been approval from the GOP No matter how bleak. My understanding is that a lot of what a Biden did was of what took place on Trump's watch, not that Biden liked it, but more of the die has been cast.

I’d also like to know what the military told Biden, hang in there or cut bait? It’s not as if this was good for our economic stability, an unending occupation among a group of people who don’t want to be like us. Besides, our military budget may just end up bankrupting us or all our bridges will fall down. And for anyone with long term memory, many were against invading both Afganistan and Iraq something that happened under… a Republican President, with cheering Republicans.

I don’t think most people are opposed to getting out of Afghanistan- except some war hawks and defense contractors. I am sure regardless of who was in charge and how things were done there would have been messy situations. The Taliban would have inevitably took over the country at some point.

But pulling out the contractors military before civilians and not notifying our partner forces? I’m by no means a military expert but don’t see how anyone could think pulling the military first was the intelligent thing to do. Evidently both the military and intelligence agencies warned of a rapid collapse and chaos if this course of action was taken. I have yet to hear a solid explanation defending not why we left, but why left the way we did. Maybe 11 days for things to implode was faster than expected, but not much faster than predictions as little as “weeks”. Apparently this wasn’t too much of a surprise for people who had actually dealt with the Afghan Army and police on the ground.

If Trump was still President and the conditions based withdrawal was indeed followed, we’d probably be in Afghanistan for the next 20 years…. or forever. I’m not sure there is a political solution to whatever it was we were trying to solve in Afghanistan. In that sense I don’t think leaving is unreasonable. But I think most people see the manner in which we left as disgraceful. And the polling clearly reflected that.

When the President says this won’t be another Saigon, then a day or so later you see people literally hanging from the side of C-17’s taking off and falling out of the sky to their death (or alternatively being crushed in the landing gear), the optics can’t get much worse than that.
 

SuperMatt

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I don’t think most people are opposed to getting out of Afghanistan- except some war hawks and defense contractors. I am sure regardless of who was in charge and how things were done there would have been messy situations. The Taliban would have inevitably took over the country at some point.

But pulling out the contractors military before civilians and not notifying our partner forces? I’m by no means a military expert but don’t see how anyone could think pulling the military first was the intelligent thing to do. Evidently both the military and intelligence agencies warned of a rapid collapse and chaos if this course of action was taken. I have yet to hear a solid explanation defending not why we left, but why left the way we did. Maybe 11 days for things to implode was faster than expected, but not much faster than predictions as little as “weeks”. Apparently this wasn’t too much of a surprise for people who had actually dealt with the Afghan Army and police on the ground.

If Trump was still President and the conditions based withdrawal was indeed followed, we’d probably be in Afghanistan for the next 20 years…. or forever. I’m not sure there is a political solution to whatever it was we were trying to solve in Afghanistan. In that sense I don’t think leaving is unreasonable. But I think most people see the manner in which we left as disgraceful. And the polling clearly reflected that.

When the President says this won’t be another Saigon, then a day or so later you see people literally hanging from the side of C-17’s taking off and falling out of the sky to their death (or alternatively being crushed in the landing gear), the optics can’t get much worse than that.
There is a lengthy thread about what happened in Afghanistan. It started before you joined here I think and probably has fallen pretty far down the list, so you might not have seen it.

But, it is extensive and discusses many aspects of what happened in Afghanistan… if you wish to read what’s been said already and contribute.

 

Chew Toy McCoy

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DISCLAIMER: The following came to my ears second hand. So nothing to link here, but I think you can file it under highly plausible.

The voice of Ukraine is suspiciously absent from Western news coverage of this situation. You can find it but you have to dig deep, and when you do find it you find out they really don’t want us there, absolutely nothing is imminent, and our propaganda is just making things a lot worse, not the least of which is pulling out our diplomats. This is so Team America: World Police.

I sometimes wonder if some people in the region would rather we just go to war with Russia directly and get it over with. Yes, there would be massive downhill misery initially but at least they would be done worrying about if their country is going to be turned into the next litter box in our constant proxy wars and skirmishes.
 

Eric

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Anyone else thrown by the fact that it took a Democratic president to stand up against Putin and Russia? Trump would've been sending troops to support Russia, not the Ukraine. Before Trump they had a firm stance against them and always have, they've sold their souls out to a madman.
 

SuperMatt

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Anyone else thrown by the fact that it took a Democratic president to stand up against Putin and Russia? Trump would've been sending troops to support Russia, not the Ukraine. Before Trump they had a firm stance against them and always have, they've sold their souls out to a madman.
I have been quite impressed with Biden’s approach. He has pulled NATO together. Europeans were reluctant to do anything, but they seem to be coming together. It’s abundantly clear that the Trump strategy of attacking your allies was ineffective, but the recent actions of Biden have drawn attention to how he is infinitely better than Trump at handling real problems.
 

Eric

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I have been quite impressed with Biden’s approach. He has pulled NATO together. Europeans were reluctant to do anything, but they seem to be coming together. It’s abundantly clear that the Trump strategy of attacking your allies was ineffective, but the recent actions of Biden have drawn attention to how he is infinitely better than Trump at handling real problems.
Agreed, I wasn't too happy at first (even looking back in this thread) but he has really came around on this IMO. Let's hope it makes a difference.
 

Thomas Veil

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DISCLAIMER: The following came to my ears second hand. So nothing to link here, but I think you can file it under highly plausible.

The voice of Ukraine is suspiciously absent from Western news coverage of this situation. You can find it but you have to dig deep, and when you do find it you find out they really don’t want us there, absolutely nothing is imminent, and our propaganda is just making things a lot worse, not the least of which is pulling out our diplomats.

My own experience is that I didn't have to drill down to find Ukraine's position on this. I found it via normal channels like The Guardian and NBC.

That said, you're right, Kyiv's message to the West has pretty much been, "Shut up, you're just making things worse."
 

SuperMatt

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yaxomoxay

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Chew Toy McCoy

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Maybe the US housing cost surge is also false!!!

They're saying it wrong. It’s a housing boom! If you can’t afford to buy a house because of inflation or market manipulation in concert with corrupt government zoning restrictions then you’re going to be mad. But because of a boom? Who can be mad at a boom? A boom means good times for everybody. Similarly defining the economy completely based on how the rich are doing let’s you, the not rich, know how you are doing despite personal evidence to the contrary.
 

yaxomoxay

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They're saying it wrong. It’s a housing boom! If you can’t afford to buy a house because of inflation or market manipulation in concert with corrupt government zoning restrictions then you’re going to be mad. But because of a boom? Who can be mad at a boom? A boom means good times for everybody. Similarly defining the economy completely based on how the rich are doing let’s you, the not rich, know how you are doing despite personal evidence to the contrary.
We love the boom! All hail the boom!
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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So now we're back to "eminent!" status.

I really have to wonder why Putin would do this now, with the entire western world focused on it. The only thing I can think of is both Putin and Biden aren't doing well domestically. What better way to distract from that than slaughtering a bunch of people in another country that isn't yours.

It's like these leaders, their intelligence services, and their state media still aren't aware that the internet exists and they can no longer completely control the narrative.
 

Eric

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Yeah it sounds almost inevitable at this point, it'll be interesting to see how the rest of the world responds.
 
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Chew Toy McCoy

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I think Democrats are misguided if they think this is going to be seen as popular just because Trump was seen as a Putin puppet. Not to mention the corpse of our 20 year failure in Afghanistan is still warm. Nobody wants us involved in another major conflict, well, except clinical psychopaths of which I am sure there are many in and involved with our military.
 

Eric

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I think Democrats are misguided if they think this is going to be seen as popular just because Trump was seen as a Putin puppet. Not to mention the corpse of our 20 year failure in Afghanistan is still warm. Nobody wants us involved in another major conflict, well, except clinical psychopaths of which I am sure there are many in and involved with our military.
Sounds made up, no Democrats are saying this, then again I don't watch cable news and if that's the case who cares.

This isn't about who is or was president, it's about uniting against a common enemy and Putin is it. If we're not going to stand behind NATO then what's the point of it? Putin will only respond to force, as a world I think we all need to unite and show it.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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Sounds made up, no Democrats are saying this, then again I don't watch cable news and if that's the case who cares.

This isn't about who is or was president, it's about uniting against a common enemy and Putin is it. If we're not going to stand behind NATO then what's the point of it? Putin will only respond to force, as a world I think we all need to unite and show it.

I’m saying it’s between the lines as all news sources have been pro military action from the jump. It’s what they do and all agree on.

This is a European issue. They should be on the front lines, not us. Being in NATO doesn’t say the US leads and controls the charge every time.

This is going to be a PR disaster for Democrats. With all the domestic threats and failings they attempt to pivot to this type distraction again. It’s certainly not going to earn any new voters and will absolutely lose them some as the the “we can’t afford to do this” message gets sent out on domestic initiatives but found a spare half billion (so far) under the couch to spend on this.
 

Eric

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I’m saying it’s between the lines as all news sources have been pro military action from the jump. It’s what they do and all agree on.

This is a European issue. They should be on the front lines, not us. Being in NATO doesn’t say the US leads and controls the charge every time.

This is going to be a PR disaster for Democrats. With all the domestic threats and failings they attempt to pivot to this type distraction again. It’s certainly not going to earn any new voters and will absolutely lose them some as the the “we can’t afford to do this” message gets sent out on domestic initiatives but found a spare half billion (so far) under the couch to spend on this.
Dems are going to lose handily in the midterms either way, man you're really hung up on them for some reason but this is bigger than any party. A sovereign nation is about to be invaded by another hostile nation, we all have a role to protect those who can't protect themselves. Try to look at it from a humanitarian point of view and not just what will and won't hurt one party or the other.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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Dems are going to lose handily in the midterms either way, man you're really hung up on them for some reason but this is bigger than any party. A sovereign nation is about to be invaded by another hostile nation, we all have a role to protect those who can't protect themselves. Try to look at it from a humanitarian point of view and not just what will and won't hurt one party or the other.

We should be involved. We shouldn't be front line. I don't think we are in a moral or track record position to be claiming "humanitarian" effort. That's little more than a propaganda talking point to manufacture consent for us being there. I'm sure we'll be doing plenty of humanitarian drone strikes that take out more civilians than enemy combatants.

At least Bernie put it out there that imagine if Mexico started allying with our adversaries which included a military presence on our border. Would we be cool with that? Would we just let it slide?
 

GermanSuplex

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I’m not saying Trump is to blame for this, but it’s a shame Biden will be tasked with dealing with and being blamed for all of this, while the people accusing him are too tone deaf, dumb or devoted to understand how Trump’s weak presidency and embrace of lies and misinformation emboldened this kind of behavior by Putin.
 
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