Seven dead: three children killed plus the shooter dead at The Covenant School on Monday

[Eric]

Seven dead: three children killed plus the shooter dead at The Covenant School on Monday

Seven people are dead — including three children — at The Covenant School on Monday morning after a shooting inside the building.

www.newschannel5.com

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (WTVF) — Seven people are dead — including three children — at The Covenant School on Monday morning after a shooting inside the building.

Three adult staff members are also dead.

"Three pediatric patients were transported to Monroe Carell Jr. Children’s Hospital at Vanderbilt, all having suffered gunshot wounds. All three were pronounced dead after arrival," officials said.

The shooting happened at 10:13 a.m. The shooting didn't happen in a classroom.

 

[mollyc]

a 28 year old woman was the shooter.

 

[Eric]

This is the Republican congressman who represents the Nashville elementary school that was just shot up.

We are failing our children, whose number one cause of death in the United States is at the hands of a gun, more than cancer or car accidents. We should all be ashamed of this.

 

[Renzatic]

It's now been reported that the shooter was a trans individual. I expect the backlash from this will be extreme.

 

[Eric]

It's now been reported that the shooter was a trans individual. I expect the backlash from this will be extreme.

3 out of 2,840+ mass shooters over the last 5 years were trans, wonder which ones will get scrutinized?

Regardless of the gender associations of the 1%, such easy access to these weapons is only making these children that much easier to kill. I don't see how anyone who supports such a thing can every be taken seriously when they say they care about children.

 

[KingOfPain]

It's never the guns, it's always something else.

After someone shot up a school in Germany years ago the discussion wasn't how he managed to get the guns so easily, but that the police found Counter Strike at his home.
When poachers killed two police officers last year, the discussion wasn't about gun regulation (or checking if certain people should have their permit revoked), but if police should have better vests. You'd need military grade vests to stop a bullet from a hunting rifle. And I believe one of the officers was hit by a shotgun blast in the face. A vest wouldn't have helped here.

But I'm pretty sure that the gun nuts will draw the right conclusion here: Trans people are obviously mentally disturbed and should not have guns!
(I have to emphasize that this is the reaction that I expect and not my personal opinion.)

 

[AG_PhamD]

I would suspect given this being a Christian school and the perpetrator being a trans individual, there is likely a high chance of this being ideologically motivated. Especially given their age of 28. If the perpetrator was on HRT, increased testosterone (especially if drugs are misused) can cause increased irritability and aggression. The Principal/Headmistress of the school appeared to have a mission statement that one could interpret as anti-Trans (something to the effect of raising children in a complex world to become the adults god intended).


Undoubtedly the right will make this very much about transgenderism. While I do think there are facets of how transgenderism is treated medically and societally that warrant discussion, it’s a separate issue entirely from the terrible event at this school. And regardless of being trans, this was clearly a deeply disturbed individual to kill random children- as is usually the case. There are far too many school shootings regardless of this case. Just a week ago there was another in Colorado. Something needs to change to stop the insane frequency of these senseless killings.

 

[rdrr]

3 out of 2,840+ mass shooters over the last 5 years were trans, wonder which ones will get scrutinized?

Regardless of the gender associations of the 1%, such easy access to these weapons is only making these children that much easier to kill. I don't see how anyone who supports such a thing can every be taken seriously when they say they care about children.

Yup...

 

[Nycturne]

Undoubtedly the right will make this very much about transgenderism. While I do think there are facets of how transgenderism is treated medically and societally that warrant discussion, it’s a separate issue entirely from the terrible event at this school.

And I’d posit it’s going to be very hard to have that conversation so long as we are pathologising people. It makes it all too easy to talk over the group in question and get paternalistic. Note that we stopped using homosexualism a while ago for a reason.

Agreed it is a separate issue, to an extent. But I’d argue that an increase of folks committing lone-wolf acts that are ideologically motivated is also a reflection of the political climate at the moment. So there’s two issues:

1) How do we limit the damage that someone can cause when they mentally get to the place where this seems like a good idea?
2) How do we stop it from getting to that point in the first place?

As someone who interacts with the trans community regularly, I am seeing a lot of fear and anger over the anti-trans bills being passed left and right. I’m starting to see calls to arm themselves for self defense akin to the Black Panthers. We’re seeing clashes as both sides are descending on events, and at this point, with the direction we’re going, I am expecting another Stonewall. This is quickly turning into a powder keg.

 

[AG_PhamD]

And I’d posit it’s going to be very hard to have that conversation so long as we are pathologising people. It makes it all too easy to talk over the group in question and get paternalistic. Note that we stopped using homosexualism a while ago for a reason.

Agreed it is a separate issue, to an extent. But I’d argue that an increase of folks committing lone-wolf acts that are ideologically motivated is also a reflection of the political climate at the moment. So there’s two issues:

1) How do we limit the damage that someone can cause when they mentally get to the place where this seems like a good idea?
2) How do we stop it from getting to that point in the first place?

As someone who interacts with the trans community regularly, I am seeing a lot of fear and anger over the anti-trans bills being passed left and right. I’m starting to see calls to arm themselves for self defense akin to the Black Panthers. We’re seeing clashes as both sides are descending on events, and at this point, with the direction we’re going, I am expecting another Stonewall. This is quickly turning into a powder keg.

I think too much of the conversation around trans people is hijacked by activists on either side of the issue. On the one side, you have people who want to ban any sort of care or accommodation for trans individuals. Or the opposite, there are people who support children making significant life changes without any parental oversight or psychological analysis. I would think most of society doesn’t really care what individuals chose to do, that there is not universal one size fits all answer for everyone, and that there is a middle ground. Legitimate, more practical concerns get overshadowed by the extremism and black and white thinking on both sides. That’s how I see it anyways.

Whether people like it or not, there needs to be acceptance that trans people exist and will live their best life having undergone gender transition. On the other hand, I think there is reasonable data to suggest a concern about transgenderism being a phase some children may go through and medical intervention may not be the best course of treatment in some children. Minimizing harm to both this population AND those who will remain gender incongruent indefinitely is important. The issues of bathrooms, sports, and prisons I think are of much less importance, but still warrant attention and compromised solutions.

As someone too who has a lot of clinical interaction with trans individuals- albeit more often clinical gender dysphoria, I too see the grave concern for many of these radical anti-trans bills- which I wholeheartedly disagree with. The world is way too nuanced to create such blanket legislation. And I see gender transition as a medical matter that should be guided by unbiased science and best practices, not partisan political policy.

That said, I don’t think this tragedy should be considered a representation of trans-ideology broadly. As far as I know such an event has never occurred, at least at this scale. At the same time, I do not accept that ANY amount of mistreatment of the trans community justifies killing other people, especially 3 innocent 9 year old children. It troubles me that some in the media have tacitly justified this as understandable or not surprising. Meanwhile other mass shooters are given none of this and are often labeled as having some sort of unproven white supremacist motivation when in most cases the issue is more likely bullying/social rejection which is probably not so different to this case.

That said, so much needs to be done to prevent these mass mass murders from occurring. I am not opposed to an assault rifle ban, but I just don’t think it’s politically feasible. What l do know is that in almost all of these cases there are many, many red flags that go ignored. And at the very least we need to ensure the systems in place work as they’re supposed to and to not allow people to fall through the cracks.

And we as society in general could probably do better to be compassionate and inclusive to everyone. And do make every effort to help those who are struggling- up to and including reporting those who may pose a danger to self or others.

 

[fooferdoggie]

I think too much of the conversation around trans people is hijacked by activists on either side of the issue. On the one side, you have people who want to ban any sort of care or accommodation for trans individuals. Or the opposite, there are people who support children making significant life changes without any parental oversight or psychological analysis. I would think most of society doesn’t really care what individuals chose to do, that there is not universal one size fits all answer for everyone, and that there is a middle ground. Legitimate, more practical concerns get overshadowed by the extremism and black and white thinking on both sides. That’s how I see it anyways.

children are not making those choices without parents and doctors and what children get in treatment is not permeant life changes anyway. puberty blockers are a well known drug as you should know.

 

[Eric]

If a trans, black, red, blue, green, straight, bi, whatever none-white-straight shooter is enough to get Republicans engaged we should welcome it. Nothing motivates them more than bigotry, let's use it.

 

[Eric]

 

[Nycturne]

Or the opposite, there are people who support children making significant life changes without any parental oversight or psychological analysis.

Who? What I do see is this:

- Trans community is concerned about being outed to unsupportive parents which could lead to abuse, against their own wishes. Laws being passed that require outing LGBT children to parents undermine the ability of a person to have some semblance of autonomy or shield themselves from reprisal from family members.
- Trans community is concerned about having to deal with paternalistic gatekeeping rather than exploratory therapy to help the individual figure it out for themselves.

Ultimately, if someone see trans identity as a pathology to be addressed, I suppose the above doesn’t really matter or can be dismissed. Which is one thing I was getting at about pathology in my last post. It doesn’t help that there is a rather vocal group out there mis-representing what the community actually wants.

Whether people like it or not, there needs to be acceptance that trans people exist and will live their best life having undergone gender transition. On the other hand, I think there is reasonable data to suggest a concern about transgenderism being a phase some children may go through and medical intervention may not be the best course of treatment in some children.

What medical intervention are we talking about here?

For children pre-puberty, some clothes a new hair style and trying out a different name isn’t a big thing. Social transition is relatively simple at that age. If it does desist, that’s fine. No harm, no foul. In terms of puberty, blockers to buy time to sort things out can lead to improved outcomes without jumping straight into HRT.

If anything, I think we tend to make folks wait too long to get access to therapy. Folks under the NHS in the UK have it particularly bad with wait times for the first appointment being years. This can lead to folks that have stronger dysphoria to take matters into their own hands, which I’d imagine is something you don’t want.

That said, I don’t think this tragedy should be considered a representation of trans-ideology broadly. As far as I know such an event has never occurred, at least at this scale. At the same time, I do not accept that ANY amount of mistreatment of the trans community justifies killing other people, especially 3 innocent 9 year old children. It troubles me that some in the media have tacitly justified this as understandable or not surprising. Meanwhile other mass shooters are given none of this and are often labeled as having some sort of unproven white supremacist motivation when in most cases the issue is more likely bullying/social rejection which is probably not so different to this case.

In what way has the media being justifying this as understandable? I see some acknowledgement of the political situation in places, but that’s about it. At least outside the Murdoch-sphere at the moment.

That said, I fall into the ”not surprised” camp here. But more because we’ve got a rather ugly mix of stuff here in the US that makes this sort of event too easy to accomplish. As for the details on this specific event, I am waiting for information on the manifesto before trying to make any sort of guess as to the motivations involved here.

That said, so much needs to be done to prevent these mass mass murders from occurring. I am not opposed to an assault rifle ban, but I just don’t think it’s politically feasible. What l do know is that in almost all of these cases there are many, many red flags that go ignored. And at the very least we need to ensure the systems in place work as they’re supposed to and to not allow people to fall through the cracks.

And we as society in general could probably do better to be compassionate and inclusive to everyone. And do make every effort to help those who are struggling- up to and including reporting those who may pose a danger to self or others.

I agree that red flags do get thrown on so many of these occasions. To the point that I think red flag laws can probably help. To a point…

The other aspect of trans identity as a pathology is that depending on how the red flag laws work, it isn’t hard to “Jim Crow” your way into leveraging those laws against minorities. If trans identity is considered a mental illness (by legislators), then it’s not a huge leap to say that is a flag that can be used to “defang” a group of people.

As a bit of an aside, we’re finally starting to see some places drop their compulsory sterilization rules related to gender markers on government documents. There are multiple US states where this is still the case though, and feeds into requiring specific medical interventions in order to avoid issues with incongruent outward appearance and documentation. So I think it’s understandable that many in the community would be acutely anxious about the idea of a trans mass shooter leading towards laws that could ultimately strip their right to self defense. But again, strip the pathology away and it becomes harder to use trans identity as a “red flag” in laws such as these, or to justify requiring specific medical procedures/sterilization.

 

[AG_PhamD]

children are not making those choices without parents and doctors and what children get in treatment is not permeant life changes anyway. puberty blockers are a well known drug as you should know.

I didn’t say parents are not involved with those choices. But there are many people advocating that children are consent to treatment interventions without parental consent. Oregon has a bill in the works that would allow children age 15+ to consent to gender-affirming interventions. There are also many people and some states who want to abolish psych evaluations. Some states have reduced from 2 independent evaluations to 1 and it’s possible some states have gotten rid of evaluations all together.

WPATH, as of 2022, is recommending the min age of surgery to 15–17 and 14 for hormones.

It’s also true that children under the age of 18 are not commonly having genital surgery, as some of the anti-trans activists would lead you believed. If it does happen, it would be extremely rare. Mastectomies under the age of 18 are not common, though they do happen, but in small numbers.

It’s amazing to me how ubiquitous this belief has become that “hormone blockers are reversible”. The truth in that statement varies greatly depending on many factors, but I would argue they may be *somewhat* reversible. And to make proclamations despite a well acknowledged lack of longterm pediatric data is disingenuous to say the least.

Hormone blockers can affect bone growth and density, leading to osteopenia/osteoporosis, bone fractures, stunted growth, and brittle teeth. They can cause permanent infertility and affect development of secondary sex characteristics (which can affect the ability to perform MTF vaginoplasty). They may also cause gynecomastia in boys. Lupron (a popular puberty blocker) is currently being investigated by its manufacturer for potential neurological effects due to a correlation with increased rates of seizures in young males. These drugs are also known to induce mood disorders- there is concern that the earlier age mood disorders develop the worse severity they have and the worse prognosis.

Once HRT are started, the some of the effects are profound and not reversible- at least without major interventions.

Now- that out of the way, that DOES NOT MEAN these drugs cannot or should not be used. And just because we lack longterm data doesn’t mean their use is necessarily irresponsible- that’s unfortunately the case with many drugs, especially used in children. What this all does mean their risks and benefits must be evaluated carefully. And patients must be informed and understand of all risks. And these risks for some patients may be considered worthwhile. For others it may suggest a need to wait.

I am very empathetic to the challenges faced by trans youth and their parents. Balancing autonomy of children vs parental rights is tough- certainly in the teenage years. There are obviously significant drawbacks to starting treatments later in life. This is about as messy as things can get. But one thing is absolutely true in my mind and that’s that the politics/the government has no place regulating treatment out of existence.

 

[GermanSuplex]

Well, at least republicans have now stopped pretending to even care. The reactions are breathtaking. One state rep republican gave the reflexive “mental health” argument, then went on a tirade about being able to choose private schooling when he brought up the fact his daughter was home-schooled, this after being asked what he could do to think of keeping his daughter and others safe in schools.

Tucker Carlson went straight for the shooter’s gender identity - a given, and they will use the fact democrats point out when it’s a Trumper or white supremacist who commits a mass shooting (as if there is no pattern or correlation).

Boebert and Matt Gaetz were blaming the COVID lockdowns.

Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz are back to talk about “hardening” the schools. The shooter shot their way in and didn’t appear to fear death. We’ve seen schools with armed police still suffer fatalities. The shootings are becoming so frequent they almost don’t make the news unless there’s more than one or two causalities.

They’re more focused on drag queen stories, banning books and stopping kids from learning accurate history. They literally find ways to do less than nothing. For all their talk about mental health being a root issue, WTF are they doing to help? Have you seen their committee hearings? Literally a circus. If The Onion had a TV channel, it would be able to play actual footage of these Republican-chaired committees. These are the same people who mocked Trump’s impeachments and the J6 hearings…

 

[Nycturne]

Boebert and Matt Gaetz were blaming the COVID lockdowns.

That's a very weird take since the shooter is old enough that they wouldn't have been attending this school since what, the 00s?

 

[Herdfan]

children are not making those choices without parents and doctors and what children get in treatment is not permeant life changes anyway. puberty blockers are a well known drug as you should know.

Would your opinion change if you knew 15 year old minors were having surgery? Or if you knew schools were allowing children to be the opposite gender at school without parents being notified?

 

[fooferdoggie]

Would your opinion change if you knew 15 year old minors were having surgery? Or if you knew schools were allowing children to be the opposite gender at school without parents being notified?

but they are not. in fact surgery is rare approx 1500 or so happen a year. when you see how some parents treat their children when they find out they are gar or trans then yes I approve. a large number of homeless children are ones that were kicked out of their home because of their gender. there is a reason why some children dont tell their parents what they are. it can cost them so much.

 

[Herdfan]

but they are not.

Didn't answer my question.

Would your opinion change if you knew 15 year olds were having gender surgery. It is a yes or no question.

in fact surgery is rare approx 1500 or so happen a year. when you see how some parents treat their children when they find out they are gar or trans then yes I approve. a large number of homeless children are ones that were kiked out of their home because of their gender.

Can't fix bad parenting by some by treating all like they would do this.