A Couple Is Charged In A Deadly Fire Sparked By Their Gender Reveal

B S Magnet

Site Champ
Posts
334
Reaction score
443
Location
unceded land of northern Turtle Island
You can stand up for your people. And should.

But you have made it pretty clear you hate cis people and they have no idea your struggles or what it means to be a trans person.

Nah, you have me wrong, my dear redneck with a genitally compensatory pickup truck! I love lots of cis people! They happen to be cis people who are kind, who are empathetic, and who do the work of learning beyond their comfort zones. They’re folks who’ve shown, time and again, they’re worth their salt, and they’re people I’d drop everything and be there for them if I can help.

What they aren’t?

They aren’t the insufferable, trans antagonistic, misogynistic, trans misogynistic, and downright transphobic choads who think we’re all still in an era when they can crack “that chick’s got a dick” jokes; make dim-witted takes about what trans people should not be allowed to do; and using veiled language to imply that trans people are predatory to anyone who’s cis because they’re trans. That’s the garbage I don’t put up with.

And guess what? You aren’t all cis people (mercifully).

So why should any of us really give a shit about how YOU feel?

You shouldn’t. But you would be wise to actively listen and not reflexively come back in as if you know better about trans stuff than a trans person. You will show your arse every last time if you choose to go that route.

I get abused here. But you know what, if I realize I was wrong or I have offended someone directly, I own it or apologize. You just throw more bombs.

I look forward to the day when you can learn how to apologize for your plainly established transphobia. I ain’t holding my breath.

I agree with @theSeb that you are probably a miserable person. And miserable to be around.

How about: start showing that you can treat and engage with folks like me equitably (and with the respect you’d unconsciously extend to the next random cis person you might happen to meet), and surprise! you might find I’m actually kind of fun to hang out with.

* * *

[Also, for the folks here who didn’t see what went down on PRSI, there were two repeat, trans antagonistic agitators, and one of them is now here and watch out! he drives a “Mega Truck”. And I got the suspension, and the second suspension, and the third suspension, all from engaging those two trans antagonists on that one PRSI thread which… apparently caused PRSI to die. Aw.]
 
Last edited:

Herdfan

Resident Redneck
Posts
4,770
Reaction score
3,670
I look forward to the day when you can learn how to apologize for your plainly established transphobia. I ain’t holding my breath.

I will certainly not apologize for believing that biological males competing against biological females in sports is not fair.

Just so you know, I coached a trans male when I coached HS swimming. And she was an awesome person. But I also knew she couldn't compete against the boys either, nor did she ever ask.
 

B S Magnet

Site Champ
Posts
334
Reaction score
443
Location
unceded land of northern Turtle Island
I will certainly not apologize for believing that biological males competing against biological females in sports is not fair.

Science doesn’t care about your beliefs.

Just so you know, I coached a trans male when I coached HS swimming. And she was an awesome person. But I also knew she couldn't compete against the boys either, nor did she ever ask.

Why in the fuck are you misgendering a young trans man by calling him “she”?

What case are you trying to build here? Because experience and compassion sure ain’t it.
 

lizkat

Watching March roll out real winter
Posts
7,341
Reaction score
15,163
Location
Catskill Mountains
I have to think this poster's combative style might have been the nudge that pushed Arn over the edge. We had been arguing among ourselves for years without much problem, then @B S Magnet shows up throwing bombs and the whole thing gets shut down. Coincidence, maybe. But maybe not.

Oh I think there were a lot of problems "over there" that went back years, man. Racist posts during the Obama era. Misogynist memes about Clinton during the 2016 campaign. Slurs about gays and a lot of pseudo inquiries about whether this or that iPhone color was "too feminine" for a guy to sport at work... all that started up after Cook came out as gay in 2014, same with complaints about how the Apple ads had got "too political" (i.e., diverse!). Whereas in 2011 when he first became CEO, the slant of the anti-Cook crowd was more that he lacked vision and was a beancounter better suited to have remained in supply chain management. So when trans rights issues finally came more to the fore in American politics, why would we have been surprised over in those forums that some ugliness almost immediately surfaced. They got dealt with unevenly at best by the members and mods alike.

In the USA, we're all still having to operate primarily within a cis white straight Euro-centric male power structure. It takes time to chip away at denial (of rights, and of the fact that rights are denied!) and extend proper recognition of human rights to everyone... or to one group of "outsiders" at a time, apparently. We're making progress but it sure does seem slow sometimes, especially if people standing in the way are good at deflecting and distracting from their obstinancy and recalcitrance and sometimes flat refusal to accord to anyone not like them the same human rights they take for granted for themselves and the people they think are more "like them".

EDIT: @Thomas Veil I guess this post s/b moved too since it's not about helicopter parents... sorry.
 

Herdfan

Resident Redneck
Posts
4,770
Reaction score
3,670
Why in the fuck are you misgendering a young trans man by calling him “she”?

What case are you trying to build here? Because experience and compassion sure ain’t it.

My bad. Probably because I knew him from the time he was 6 or 7. It wasn't until HS that he transitioned.

So for going forward, if I knew them when they were a girl, should I refer to experiences at that time as them being a girl, or does all that history go away and they were always a boy?
 

Herdfan

Resident Redneck
Posts
4,770
Reaction score
3,670
The latter. Show them the respect they deserve.

Ok, so that is talking to them. What if I am talking about them (not in a bad way)? For example, looking at a swim pic from 2009 of a relay and He is in the picture clearly as a girl.
 

B S Magnet

Site Champ
Posts
334
Reaction score
443
Location
unceded land of northern Turtle Island
Ok, so that is talking to them. What if I am talking about them (not in a bad way)? For example, looking at a swim pic from 2009 of a relay and He is in the picture clearly as a girl.

Referring back to what I wrote earlier in this discussion:

Gendering is something which is done to people from the moment they get designated as female or male at the moment of birth. This is being done to virtually everyone — cis people, trans people, non-binary people — with no opt-out clause.

When reflecting on this fact, what you are seeing in the childhood pictures of this trans guy is the picture of a kid who was having a specific dialect of gender imposed onto their person and their body in a very deliberate, very prescribed manner. It was an overtly feminine dialect, coded as “girl”. That didn’t make him a girl, however.

A kid, trans or cis, looks up to parents and adults and doesn’t want to disappoint them. Cis kids, just like trans kids, know they’re a girl or a boy, no matter what anyone else tries to tell them (see: Reimer, David), and if there’s any lingering “confusion” around gender to be had, it’s the trans kid, long before the cis kid, who’s gonna have already figured this stuff out, even before they even have the spoken language to convey it. I mean — what better way than trial-by-fire to learn the language of gender than to be facing constantly contradictory messaging by all the adults around you?

Depending on particular kid-parent dynamics, that kid might be pushed into fear the closer they try to openly interrogate the dialect of gendering which is being done to them, systematically, by the grown-ups. If they have imposing, rigid, stern parents, this may push them into deeper fear, deeper levels of anxiety, and given the chronic secretions of cortisol borne from anxiety, a greater risk for long-term depression and risk for self-harm as a coping mchanism.

Or, the kid-parent dynamic might be a healthy one (healthy enough that when a trans kid is ready, feels safe enough, and is able to articulate — to “voice” — that they’re trans, maybe with something like, “Mum, dad, I know I’m not a girl [or boy], don’t be mad at me”), such that disclosing this to their parents is not only possible, but feasible whilst they’re still in primary or secondary school. That’s just what we’re beginning to see more of now, and that is also the future.

So the tl;dr:

This young trans guy may have pictures of when he was being placed by others as a girl, but he was still just as much the boy he is now. It’s just that the cis people around him at that time didn’t see it and/or didn’t realize it, because all the gendering being done to him from the moment he was born, encoded institutionally by birth record, and reinforced by non-parent adults who meant well (but got it wrong), was the gendering of a dialect which simply and bluntly wasn’t who he was. And is.

And it sounds like he has good parents who accept him and love him, and that alone makes me happy.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

Pleb
Site Donor
Posts
7,557
Reaction score
11,807
Science doesn’t care about your beliefs.

Sincere question. Is there any science that disputes a biological born male doesn't have a competitive edge over females in sports after they transition?

I'll also acknowledge, and I don't know if this makes my question a moot point, but I am vaguely aware of some biological measurements that can somewhat level the playing field in that regard, qualify/disqualify. But without that those measurements can you just plop a transitioned male into female sports and go "no difference"?
 

B S Magnet

Site Champ
Posts
334
Reaction score
443
Location
unceded land of northern Turtle Island
Sincere question. Is there any science that disputes a biological born male doesn't have a competitive edge over females in sports after they transition?

I'll also acknowledge, and I don't know if this makes my question a moot point, but I am vaguely aware of some biological measurements that can somewhat level the playing field in that regard, qualify/disqualify. But without that those measurements can you just plop a transitioned male into female sports and go "no difference"?

I’m not repeating myself.
 

SuperMatt

Site Master
Posts
7,862
Reaction score
15,004
Sincere question. Is there any science that disputes a biological born male doesn't have a competitive edge over females in sports after they transition?

I'll also acknowledge, and I don't know if this makes my question a moot point, but I am vaguely aware of some biological measurements that can somewhat level the playing field in that regard, qualify/disqualify. But without that those measurements can you just plop a transitioned male into female sports and go "no difference"?
It took me very little time to find this article…


After all, transgender women aren't transitioning to get an athletic advantage -- they just want to play sport in the category that fits their gender identity. As Hubbard told Radio New Zealand in 2017: "I'm not here to change the world. I just want to be me and do what I do."
 

Chew Toy McCoy

Pleb
Site Donor
Posts
7,557
Reaction score
11,807
It took me very little time to find this article…


Both of you seem to think I'm just trying to set you up with a "gotcha!" question. I was not. I'm done. Feel free to fire back with some self empowering quip in response.
 

B S Magnet

Site Champ
Posts
334
Reaction score
443
Location
unceded land of northern Turtle Island
It took me very little time to find this article…


Lay cis people who don’t want to do even the most basic good faith work on their own (no, I’m not talking about you!) have always, for as long as I can remember, expected trans people to do the 101-level teaching labour for, of course, free.

Said (largely) thankless work reveals itself as a pretty good case model on how a cisnormatively enforced structural privilege redirects the burden of doing knowledge-growth work onto the trans and non-binary people (who continue to be held way off at the structural margins and — often — out of the discussion. I have long found it’s rare, in the company of a mostly- or all-cis group, for a openly trans person to feel they are esteemed on the same level as how the cis people esteem one another within that group.
 

Herdfan

Resident Redneck
Posts
4,770
Reaction score
3,670
Sincere question. Is there any science that disputes a biological born male doesn't have a competitive edge over females in sports after they transition?

I'll also acknowledge, and I don't know if this makes my question a moot point, but I am vaguely aware of some biological measurements that can somewhat level the playing field in that regard, qualify/disqualify. But without that those measurements can you just plop a transitioned male into female sports and go "no difference"?

Yes, posted one in the Olympics thread.
 

B S Magnet

Site Champ
Posts
334
Reaction score
443
Location
unceded land of northern Turtle Island
Your disliking every one of my posts ever since I called out your singular-they gripe, with my linking to the Oxford English Dictionary editors supporting this use, is petty. So I’ma return the favour. :)

What science? Herdfan's position is that testosterone levels result in unfair advantages.

No. His position, ever since the PRSI shitshow, has been steadfastly in the camp of: no trans girl and no trans woman should be permitted to compete, side by side, with any cis girl and any cis woman, respectively — forever.

His position, as he steadfastly contends, is his belief. His belief is not founded in anything better than a cisnormative “tradition”. His belief does not account for official policy addressing equitable competition practices. His belief does not account for the immanent plasticity of bodies and their organs being changed, most of them constantly, by hormones, especially exogenous hormones (i.e., intramuscular injection of anything from testosterone to insulin changes bodies). And his belief is not borne by applied experience.

No. His belief (and based on your thumbs, it sounds like yours, as well) is: endogenous hormones, once entered into the bloodstream, fixes everything inside the body into place permanently and, therefore, a trans girl or a trans woman who has experienced even a moment of endogenous production of testosterone, pre-disqualifies her in perpetuity from competing alongside her cis counterpart(s), while trans boys and trans men will never, ever be able to compete alongside cis men. Likewise, a trans person who only experiences a single, exogenous puberty are also “gaming the system” and should not be allowed to compete with other folks with the same gender, because reasons (“chromosomes!” “unnatural!” “a threat!”)

Impressively, this is a micro-step up from the “chromosomes are destiny” rhetoric being debated in state supreme courts of the past twenty-give years to regulate and prohibit trans people from everyday participation in the public realm (including depriving them of the right to any marriage with anyone). But his belief is still a woefully antediluvian framework based not on the science of endocrinology and trans medicine, but on a cisnormative “tradition”.

Not only is this cisnormative belief the expression of a cognitive laziness to further justify the policy and law of segregation to benefit trans people negatively, as well as people with intersex bodies (which it does, keep reading), but its reductive framework of consequential implementation also fails to account for that aforementioned plasticity and, likewise, fails to account for the orthodox of fixity which claims all women’s bodies — cisgender and transgender — to be a geography over which social orders must impose their heavy-handed regulation (disproportionately, by [cisgender] men, and also by the cisgender women who back them). This imposition is exercised in the name of “protection”, but this isn’t the case at all.

Otherwise, we wouldn’t be seeing the Dutee Chands and Caster Semenyas of cisgender women being 86’d from competition from other cisgender women, and likewise, we wouldn’t be seeing draconian U.S. state laws 86’ing trans kids from interscholastic competition from their cis counterparts. This same heavy regulation over that geography is central to what reproductive justice strives to challenge and redress. This is further why it is no minor coincidence that trans health and reproductive health are two sides to the same double-helix of reproductive justice and reproductive health.

But back to bodies.

There is one organ in the body which sex hormones do set into place by a certain age, and that organ is the skeleton. Growth plates in bones tend to set in place by no later than 18 (more commonly, it’s age 16). This, along with the developmental impact of hormones on vocal chords (a soft tissue, but consequential for obvious reasons), is the reason why medical specialists and medical ethicists now concur that trans kids who have voiced as trans whilst still kids have a right to agency over their body’s developmental future — that being, a single, consensual puberty on a trans person’s terms.

For the transgender kid who is able to experience their puberty on their terms, this means their body will develop much the same as cisgender kids of the same gender. This means, additionally, that successive cohorts of trans kids with agency over their — and this is key — one and only puberty are indistinguishable from their cisgender counterparts, especially after that puberty.

This quiet, but unavoidable fact mortifies cisgender rights activists (CRAs) like TERFs (there are too many) and MRAs (such as tshrimp on PRSI and Herdfan). This material fact is the high-octane political fuel supercharging state-level legislation to abolish trans kids from participating in athletics, abolish trans kids from access to school washrooms and change facilities, and worse, abolish physicians from delivering informed patient & parental consent on health care for trans kids.

Why?

See above: that zeal to regulate — plain English: “control” — the geography of the body of women’s (and, shocker, kids’) bodies.

[This material fact is also worrisome to trans folks because domestic violence not only remains a pandemic to all women, but it becomes an additional risk factor to trans women and another specious legal defence for domestic abusers who hurt or kill women can use to rationalize their violence (see: “trans panic defences”).]

This Machiavellian reasoning to criminalize trans health care for trans kids is because CRAs believe trans kids must endure and survive a non-consensual, endogenous first puberty (the same puberty which has silenced probably millions of of trans people over the decades who ended their lives successfully then and there). That way, not only are they made to suffer, but they will also become more readily identifiable by cisgender people as trans people reach adulthood and, consequentially, are rendered vulnerable to further overt segregation and prohibition against their participation within the public sphere (including not only, you guessed it, athletic competition, but also access to relief and change facilities, as well as other materially consequential circumstances like being hired to an over-the-table job). Further, that coerced visibility (as a CRA sees fit) aids to fuel the fire of prohibiting trans people — trans women in particular — from washroom and change facilities because, in the political mind of the CRA, readily observed masculinized features on a trans woman, ipso facto, equals “sexual predator”. (And that history is long, ugly, and still being made.)

As CRAs get deprived of the usual canards of being able to distinguish and single out all trans people (something trans people were warning about a decade ago), they get more terrified and they become more infuriated. This also makes them more violent.

Why?

Because it means they can’t make any material distinction of trans people somehow being: A) dangerous, B) impostors, C) regressive, D) advantageous, E) freaks, and F) easy to talk about derisively. That’s because: A) we’re not, B) we’re not, C) over all, we’re not (but then you have the Caitlyn Jenners and Blaire Whites), D) we’re not, E) we’re not (unless, just like cis people, we individually choose to be in the company of consensual mutual partners), and most importantly F) impossible to talk about derisively, because it becomes impossible for CRA people to know whether the person they’re feeding the trans shit-talking to is themselves trans. Increasingly, we are hearing cis people in the flesh make clowns of themselves (with the cis person having no clue they’re being seen exactly as what they are).

And yes, CRAs are hella mad, and that’s because they’re getting hella scared of being seen as the clowns they are — clowns, but dangerous clowns. Have a second look at those state legislatures, those Times of England opinion screeds, and the state imprisonment of trans people in Cameroon.

And once more, back to bodies and, more to the point, athletic competition.

The five main physical components which drive sporting competition, especially in the Olympics, are: speed, strength, duration, precision, and technique. Each sport typically demands one over the others, and sometimes, two or three, side-by-side (like football, curling, and figure-skating). Much of what CRAs decry is their belief, one they’ve willed into a falsifiable truism, that all trans girls and all trans women have “strength advantages” over, respectively, all cis girls and all cis women, and competition is, therefore, unfair.

Empirically, even with much more data to be collected, we already know that isn’t necessarily true.

If we have established how hormones can alter the mostly plastic morphology of the human body (skeleton after 16 excepted) — and the science community have widely established this to be the case — then this means unspecific “advantages” conferred to a past of having access to testosterone which are no longer a factor curtails the plastic advantages of having that T in the body. This means muscles change (including, yes, that important muscle called “the heart”). It means lung capacity changes because of changed diaphragm size. It means glutes and quadriceps and abdominal muscles change. It also means other soft tissue resiliency and production (like blood) changes. The actual number of cells may not change, but their morphology does.

Does this mean a trans woman who competes in, say, the high jump, has an advantage over her cis competitors for having experienced an endogenous first puberty? It can, yes, unless of course she isn’t tall (which, even for trans women who experience two puberties — one endogenous, one exogenous — this can certainly be the case, depending on what the instruction manual for her body, her genome, spelled out to do for her first, endogenous puberty (up to and including having had a very late onset of that first puberty and missing out on a lot of that vertical growth window, ending when the bone growth plates locked up)).

Does this mean a trans woman who competes in, say, weightlifting, has an advantage over her cis competitors in the same weight class for having experienced an endogenous first puberty? If the parts of her body being used for that competition — namely, her muscles — have lost their mass, then probably not so much. (Note the qualifier here is mass, not nuclei, so let’s not keep shifting the goalposts here.) Fixed skeletal height also isn’t an advantage. One evidentiary case example relates to weightlifter Lauren Hubbard, because it happened to Lauren Hubbard: in 2018, she broke her elbow during competition (check out that picture and clip). This was because her muscles, which in the past might have provided the torsional strength to counteract direct stress placed onto her bones, were diminished from before the start of her second puberty. She didn’t factor this into the mix, and so she tried to lift at a weight she may have lifted successfully before second puberty, but her body was operating with a new set of rules. Consequently, she paid for it in an injury which nearly ended her aspirations. But she went through the work of rehabilitation, re-learning, and being coached on that re-learning effort. As it is, Lauren was ranked below the top three women — all cis, I might add — of her weight class during Olympic qualifiers.

Does that mean a trans woman who competes in, say, long-distance running has an advantage over her cis competitors for having experienced an endogenous first puberty? So far, that hasn’t been the case at any competition level. That‘s likely because having a smaller skeletal frame confers a competitive advantage, and a decreasing, but still substantial number of trans women are going to have inherited a larger skeletal frame from a first puberty. As more trans girls experience only one consensual puberty, their participation in long distance competition might increase. Who even knows. Is it unfair that larger-framed people can’t fairly compete in a marathon against small-frame counterparts? Probably, but you’ll find no political or legal action to change this. The closest we’ve seen to date is in middle-distance running, such as the 400m hurdles, where endurance, not height, is what wins the race (and on a personal note: having run both 110m high hurdles and 300m intermediate hurdles early in high school, I can attest the difference between the two is really different, as I couldn’t compete in the latter to save my life).

In the end, the presence of trans people in competitive athletics, as with the historic inclusion of other categorically excluded people (note: that’s two links, with one more worth reading, and I have all these journal articles saved, and can post them if you can’t reach them), further diversify and improve the overall pool of competition. It enriches the expansion of weight classes (like with Greco-Roman wrestllng and weightlifting), duration classes (short-distance-to-long distance), and technique classes.

What it doesn’t do is “destroy” competition.

Trans people on sport teams with regulatory bodies overseeing their qualification are already a thing, and as successive trans people who experienced only one consensual puberty, such as Mack Beggs (see link on Greco-Roman wrestling), enter their chosen sports, these numbers — and the quality of competition more widely — shall only increase. Meanwhile, the number of harried canards which CRAs invoke to marginalize, stigmatize, and exclude trans people from involvement and participation in the public realm, will only decrease until there’s nothing left they can say which won’t be seen by everyone else as anything other than hateful old crap premised upon discredited structural stereotypes from another time.

[EDIT: As a postscript, I’ll just add here, just as I did on PRSI, that Lauren Hubbard is at least the second known trans woman to complete in an Olympics. The first, someone I used to know back in the ’90s, wasn’t voluntarily disclosed as trans when she competed a few years later, and in the end, she neither medalled nor placed. And amazingly, the sky didn’t fall.]
 
Last edited:
U

User.191

Guest
It’s an insight cis people can never really have
Bullshit. There are ldnty of cis folk who work very closely in the Trans community and are acutely aware of the challenges we face. I've work with several.

In addition there are cis partners and spouses who've undergone life where the other side transition's (e.g. my wife).

You're being elitest and driving wedges between us and the public.
 
D

Deleted member 215

Guest
Gender reveal parties are cringey. People just want another excuse to get gifts. A baby shower is enough. I did like that gag (don't remember what show): "I'm so white I went to a gender reveal party...for a dog".

As for the "trans experience", well yeah, no one can have another person's experience. I've heard straight people claim that homosexuals can't love, they can only lust. Exactly how do they know that? Unless they've been homosexual, they can't know. Even a homosexual can't make that claim because it may simply be their individual experience. So whatever. All you can do is listen to and try and understand and empathize with another person's experience.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top Bottom
1 2