Afghanistan (Again)

Scepticalscribe

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This is interesting. Have to wonder what they are up to.

Yes, I read that this has been reported, and find it interesting.

I'm curious, also, as to the position of the Chinese Embassy, and whether they have chosen to remain in place, or are in a position to do so.

When I served in Kabul, I attended meetings in both embassies, and found their diplomats exceedingly well briefed, well informed, objective, cautious, generous with their advice and experience, and knowledge, and entirely devoid of illusions.
 

Eric

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The Russians were very badly burned in Afghanistan; I found their experience, and knowledge - which they shared readily - worth noting.
I couldn't agree more, historically speaking. However, right now I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them and nothing good ever happens when they insert themselves into our foreign affairs.
 

The-Real-Deal82

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I’ve read some hilarious comments online from some Americans and some Brits who think we need to abandon Afghanistan after invading them and bringing a large scale war to their land 20 odd years ago. Apparently our responsibility should be forgotten.

It’s even funnier as these same people also don’t want to help refugees who are now fleeing for their lives. We apparently shouldn’t take any of them because it would mean more browner people on our western streets and ‘Muslamics’ which ‘ain’t our religion here’ in this multicultural nation here in Europe lol.
 

Scepticalscribe

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I couldn't agree more, historically speaking. However, right now I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them and nothing good ever happens when they insert themselves into our foreign affairs.
In truth, given their geographical location, and traumatic historic experience in the region, (and let us not forget the Chechen conflict), Russia is far more threatened by what is happening in Afghanistan than are either the US or UK, and will seek to ensure that any possible threat posed by radical Islam to their society (and to their neighbours in the former Soviet "near abroad" - i.e. the "stans", those Muslim states of central Asia that were once a part of the USSR,) is minimised.

Candidly, I do not see Russia playing a spoiler role here: They were burned too badly in Afghanistan, and are very much at risk thanks to geo-political and historic considerations.

Instead, I would look to Pakistan, possibly Saudi Arabia, to a lesser extent, Iran (which is Shia, remember, not Sunni), and keep an eye on how China responds to this crisis.

I’ve read some hilarious comments online from some Americans and some Brits who think we need to abandon Afghanistan after invading them and bringing a large scale war to their land 20 odd years ago. Apparently our responsibility should be forgotten.

It’s even funnier as these same people also don’t want to help refugees who are now fleeing for their lives. We apparently shouldn’t take any of them because it would mean more browner people on our western streets and ‘Muslamics’ which ‘ain’t our religion here’ in this multicultural nation here in Europe lol.
At the very least, we owe a duty of care - moral and practical, both - to the Afghans who worked with our missions, our armed forces, our embassies and our NGOs.

Their lives are now at risk, and they deserve better to to be left to the dubious mercy of vengeful fanatics.

Moreover, the position of women will be dire, and the gains (genuine) made in terms of civil rights, human rights, and women's rights, over the past twenty years, will be obliterated.

So, also, will the position of the Hazara minority; during their previous period in charge of Afghanistan, the Taliban did their level best to murder, or exterminate, execute, or kill - a sort of genocide - anyone of a Hazara background (again, the Hazara are Shia), and, I believe may well attempt to do so once again.
 

MarkusL

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I’ve read some hilarious comments online from some Americans and some Brits who think we need to abandon Afghanistan after invading them and bringing a large scale war to their land 20 odd years ago. Apparently our responsibility should be forgotten.

It’s even funnier as these same people also don’t want to help refugees who are now fleeing for their lives. We apparently shouldn’t take any of them because it would mean more browner people on our western streets and ‘Muslamics’ which ‘ain’t our religion here’ in this multicultural nation here in Europe lol.
Here in Sweden we have been arguing about whether to even evacuate the interpreters and other local staff that worked for our troops in Afghanistan. Now by the time that we have something that looks like a political decision to evacuate them we don't really know if there is any way to follow through on it, given the current situation in Kabul.
 
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Maybe our only role in Afghanistan should've been maintaining a low presence to deter a Taliban takeover. Clearly our efforts at building up the government and the army didn't work. But it seems clear the Taliban weren't acting with the threat of an American retaliation hanging over them. As soon as they realized that wasn't going to happen (because of the withdrawal), they took over with swiftness, something they probably could've done years ago.

The original reason we went into Afghanistan was because the country under the Taliban was harboring terrorists like Al Qaeda. Somehow I don't see that no longer being an issue.

Of course, Pakistan is also a haven for terrorists and we don't seem to be doing much about that...
 
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SuperMatt

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Afghan soldiers are abandoning posts without even fighting. They seem to have no loyalty to the current government.
 

Scepticalscribe

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Afghan soldiers are abandoning posts without even fighting. They seem to have no loyalty to the current government.

The current government, unfortunately, seems to have had little loyalty to them.

Such contracts go both ways - if you serve, you want to know that your life will be treated with respect, will not be willfully wasted, and that your death - if it happens - will actually count for something, will have been worthwhile, that it matters.

I must say that I am not just underwhelmed - but actually disgusted - by the manner of (former) President Ashraf Ghani's departure (and by the manner in which both Dostum and Atta Noor also fled).
 
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The-Real-Deal82

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At the very least, we owe a duty of care - moral and practical, both - to the Afghans who worked with our missions, our armed forces, our embassies and our NGOs.

Their lives are now at risk, and they deserve better to to be left to the dubious mercy of vengeful fanatics.

Moreover, the position of women will be dire, and the gains (genuine) made in terms of civil rights, human rights, and women's rights, over the past twenty years, will be obliterated.

So, also, will the position of the Hazara minority; during their previous period in charge of Afghanistan, the Taliban did their level best to murder, or exterminate, execute, or kill - a sort of genocide - anyone of a Hazara background (again, the Hazara are Shia), and, I believe may well attempt to do so once again.
Absolutely. I don’t trust the Taliban’s statements to the BBC where they say there will be no revenge and women are safe. There are already reports young girls are being kidnapped by fighters.
 

SuperMatt

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The current government, unfortunately, seems to have had little loyalty to them.

Such contracts go both ways - if you serve, you want to know that your life will be treated with respect, will not be willfully wasted, and that your death - if it happens - will actually count for something, will have been worthwhile.

I must say that I am not just underwhelmed - but actually disgusted - by the manner of (former) President Ashraf Ghani's departure (and by the manner in which both Dostum and Atta Noor also fled).
As with Vietnam, if a foreign power wants to control a country, they need a somewhat unpopular leader as their agent. The reason being: if the leader is unpopular, they NEED America’s support. If they are popular, they are no longer dependent on America for their power and can do what they want. So in both cases, when America left, the people have no loyalty to the unpopular leader.
 

JayMysteri0

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·LIVE
Taliban fighters enter presidential palace in Kabul

- Afghanistan's President Ashraf Ghani relinquished power to an interim government led by Taliban commander Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar

- "In order to avoid the bloodshed, I thought it was best to get out," Ghani said in a statement - Officials told Reuters and The Associated Press that President Ghani fled Afghanistan for Tajikistan and is expected to travel to a third country

- The Pentagon authorized 1,000 additional troops to Afghanistan to help with the evacuation, boosting the overall number to 6,000, US officials said

- The US Embassy in Kabul has suspended all operations and told Americans to shelter in place, saying it has received reports of gunfire at the international airport, according to The Associated Press Keep up with the latest from reporters and experts here.

The Daily Show on Instagram-

The situation in Afghanistan makes America look so bad, Texas has already banned schools from teaching it.
 

Thomas Veil

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That is funny only because it sounds much like something Texas would do.

I tell ya, though, the photos of the Chinook helicopters flying low over the cities remind me so much of Saigon.

And now it’s too late for many Afghans to get out. If you want to get depressed, read this story of one of the interpreters we’ve abandoned. Not left behind…abandoned.

We may not be good at much else, but we still know how to betray our friends.

 

Herdfan

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WFT Liz? I get you hate Trump, but given your last name, you might want to sit this one out.

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Eric

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WFT Liz? I get you hate Trump, but given your last name, you might want to sit this one out.

View attachment 8178
Other than completely lying about how it "began" ***cough daddy cough*** she's not wrong about how it's ending. We're basically handing it back to the Taliban on a silver platter, including everything we've armed the Afghans with (so bonus!).

I don't know what Biden (or Trump who started this exit) was hoping to expect but walking out on the people who have grown dependent on us doesn't seem like the right thing to do from a humanitarian standpoint.
 

Scepticalscribe

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That is funny only because it sounds much like something Texas would do.

I tell ya, though, the photos of the Chinook helicopters flying low over the cities remind me so much of Saigon.

And now it’s too late for many Afghans to get out. If you want to get depressed, read this story of one of the interpreters we’ve abandoned. Not left behind…abandoned.

We may not be good at much else, but we still know how to betray our friends.


Anyone who worked in Afghanistan will testify to the quality, courage, decency, dogged idealism and - yes - integrity of the staff (above all, interpreters - who were also often fixers and advisers, but also other local staff) who worked with us.

They were wonderful, not just eyes and ears, but advisers who very often became friends and who were invaluable - they offered incredible advice re navigating the contours of the local culture, and did it kindly and with grace - and were an incredible support.

It is unconscionable - appalling, disgusting, disgraceful and shaming - that it is not automatically axiomatic that they haven't been offered whatever support, sanctuary and asylum that they need.

I remember sitting with an interpreter - over coffee - he was briefing me on things he thought that I needed to know - recommended by some of my colleagues, within a matter of weeks of my arrival in the spring of 2013 in our compound in Kabul.

To my astonishment, he - speaking softly, quietly, seriously, earnestly - offered the extraordinary information that Mullah Omar "might have died" - that there was a "strong possibility that he had died" - this was not long after Easter 2013 - I had been in the country a mere matter of weeks - and he said, while he couldn't (formally) confirm this, that I needed to "factor it - this (strong) possibilty - in" to any analysis or reports that I would write.

Of course, as we now know, this was exactly when Mullah Omar had died, - around two years before it was formally confirmed - and my source (not for the first time, and this was something I experienced to my awed, stunned, and gratified amazement on many occasions) was extraordinarily well informed.

I vividly remember the night the Vice President dropped dead of a cardiac arrest. Between 22.30 and midnight, five separate Afghan sources phoned me to inform me of this fact, - it had not yet been publicly announced - keeping me informed, and knowing that I would have to give a political briefing at 08.00 to the EU mission where I served as Polad (political adviser/counsellor); my - astounded - question (this was in the middle of the 2014 election campaign) - "was it natural?" (i.e. was he assassinated? was he killed?) elicted shouts of laughter: "Hey," (addressing me by name - but kindly - and in English, which is my language but not theirs), "is a heart attack natural? You be the judge."

I loved some of them; they were wonderful and brave and decent, and deserve an awful lot better than has what befallen them.
 
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