Does the GOP even have an alternative to Trumpism?

Eraserhead

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Trumpism is a dead end, a death‘s head end.

Just listened to Biden address the crowd in Georgia, the difference in address tone (as compared to :poop:) is stark, the difference between a empathetic, respectable, caring leader, and a raving, teeth nashing, user-loser conman and psychopath, a spewer of poison and lies with every breath.

And there are millions who apparently continue to choose the latter, simultaneously uplifting that the dark has been pushed back and dismal that corrupt darkness is the choice of many Americans. It’s like people among us have a group death wish, because regardless of what $$ advantage you see in corruption, how can that trump losing your metaphorical soul which represents whatever goodness you process?

One of the talking heads said “we are waiting for the (Trump) fever to break”, yes... we are. 👀
There’s three things the left has got wrong:
* The marketing has generally been poor. For example not explaining ideas well or not embracing digital marketing.
* We’ve been too aggressive about excluding people who are (for example) maybe a bit racist but not super racist. People who aren’t keen on lots of immigration or people who grab their purse when they see a black person are probably people we should accept. People who go on about the great replacement theory we should reject.
* Government at all levels has become pretty poor at delivering value for money and good results. Anything that breaks the standard process is hopeless - and that isn’t good enough. For example recently there was a flood at the bin lorry site over the weekend and they didn’t send an email to everyone to say that bins weren’t being collected on Monday and would be delayed and then one to say they’d be collected a day late. Obviously this wasn’t a huge deal - I left my bin out for 2 days but it’d be nice to be surprised in a positive way sometimes.
 

Huntn

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There’s three things the left has got wrong:
* The marketing has generally been poor. For example not explaining ideas well or not embracing digital marketing.
* We’ve been too aggressive about excluding people who are (for example) maybe a bit racist but not super racist. People who aren’t keen on lots of immigration or people who grab their purse when they see a black person are probably people we should accept. People who go on about the great replacement theory we should reject.
* Government at all levels has become pretty poor at delivering value for money and good results. Anything that breaks the standard process is hopeless - and that isn’t good enough. For example recently there was a flood at the bin lorry site over the weekend and they didn’t send an email to everyone to say that bins weren’t being collected on Monday and would be delayed and then one to say they’d be collected a day late. Obviously this wasn’t a huge deal - I left my bin out for 2 days but it’d be nice to be surprised in a positive way sometimes.
If they grab their purse, that is not such a big deal as supporting racist policies. I‘ll point out that racism is unacceptable, that “those people” who advocate or support racist policies it is a dead end for our society. So how do you deal with them? And ignoring them, means you are doing an injustice to miiions of minorities. The minorities are used to it, just does not cut it either. We’ve got to pick and chose, and I’m sorry but if telling people racism is wrong is going to alienate them, what else can be done? Certainly not coddle the racists, certainly not step on minorities to appease them.

Yes, we need efficient uncorrupted government but if this is the gripe it is inexplicable that a voter would turn to something like Trump unless they are stupid, gullible, or their desire is for trashing democratic authority without realizing they’d be ushering in fascism or a dictatorship,
 
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lizkat

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The Republicans have a big problem ahead trying to decide whether to rebuild or to split formally and go separate ways, and if the latter then their waning overall support becomes even more of a challenge to ability to win elections at the federal level.

Our biggest problem as a country though is going to be learning to trust each other again and probably regardless of political party. We've all been schooled for four years not to believe much of anything and to look to Trump's twitter line or media reaction to it even to figure out what "matters" today. Trust is not in the picture. We've been told not to trust each other. What matters is getting a grip on the day before it slides away into what not to believe tomorrow.

I just connected with Bret Stephens' 12/14 piece in the opinion pages of the NYT, talking about corrosion of social trust and referencing a WaPo essay on trust by the now very aged George Shultz, a former Secretary of State asserting that "trust is the coin of the realm."

The Stephens piece is at


Trump’s presidency is hardly the sole cause of America’s declining trust in our institutions, which has been going on for a long time. In some ways, his was the culmination of that decline.

But it’s hard to think of any person in my lifetime who so perfectly epitomizes the politics of distrust, or one who so aggressively promotes it. Trump has taught his opponents not to believe a word he says, his followers not to believe a word anyone else says, and much of the rest of the country to believe nobody and nothing at all.

He has detonated a bomb under the epistemological foundations of a civilization that is increasingly unable to distinguish between facts and falsehoods, evidence and fantasy. He has instructed tens of millions of people to accept the commandment, That which you can get away with, is true.

The link to the Time piece by Stephens that he provided in the above quote is from 2017, when as a former colleague of the late Danny Pearl at the WSJ he was asked to deliver that year's Daniel Pearl Memorial Lecture, from which the following quotes are taken:

If a public figure tells a whopping lie once in his life, it’ll haunt him into his grave. If he lies morning, noon and night, it will become almost impossible to remember any one particular lie. Outrage will fall victim to its own ubiquity. It’s the same truth contained in Stalin’s famous remark that the death of one man is a tragedy but the death of a million is a statistic.

One of the most interesting phenomena during the presidential campaign was waiting for Trump to say that one thing that would surely break the back of his candidacy.


Heh, yeah and it never happened, did it.

Shameless rhetoric will always find a receptive audience with shameless people. Donald Trump’s was the greatest political strip-tease act in U.S. political history: the dirtier he got, the more skin he showed, the more his core supporters liked it.

Abraham Lincoln, in his first inaugural address, called on Americans to summon “the better angels of our nature.” Donald Trump’s candidacy, and so far his presidency, has been Lincoln’s exhortation in reverse.

Here’s a simple truth about a politics of dishonesty, insult and scandal: It’s entertaining. Politics as we’ve had it for most of my life has, with just a few exceptions, been distant and dull.

If you like Trump, his presence in the White House is a daily extravaganza of sticking it to pompous elites and querulous reporters. If you hate Trump, you wake up every day with some fresh outrage to turn over in your head and text your friends about.

Whichever way, it’s exhilarating. Haven’t all of us noticed that everything feels speeded up, more vivid, more intense and consequential?

That right there is a concern of mine. We've just spent four years watching a shameless liar entertain us. The press has realized we have found it all pretty entertaining
(outrage itself became entertainment... if you don't think so then you haven't yet caught yourself lately sighing and leaving some serious piece of journalism about policy in the Biden administration for "some other time" because Trump clickbait is more energizing)​
even if we've come to trust mainstream media outlets less just for having got themselves and us sucked into Trump's narcissistic focus on him and his every twitch.

If we have continued to find Trump himself not trustworthy, just constantly being drawn to his every utterance by the press has made us question their worth too, which of course has been exactly what Trump has hoped for. Now he is leaving government and we are stuck along with the press trying to regain our footing with respect to trust of each other, and us at least of the Fourth Estate as well. Trump may well still be out there with this or that shiny object going forward, trying to lure the press and us into staying entertained by his ability to divide us and generate outrage. And the Republicans will be watching to see how he does in order to figure out what to do about the fraying bonds within their own party.

The rest of us shouldn't think we don't have a lot of trust issues on the left in the meantime.

As for the press? I think they're all quaking in their boots. The reality show from this White House underwrote their bottom lines for four years, in a time of tremendous pressure from the internet and during ongoing consolidation of commerically viable journalistic endeavors. Sobering up and trying to get the American population to come along to rehab now is going to be a challenge.
 

Eraserhead

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If they grab their purse, that is not such a big deal as supporting racist policies. I‘ll point out that racism is unacceptable, that “those people” who advocate or support racist policies it is a dead end for our society. So how do you deal with them? And ignoring them, means you are doing an injustice to miiions of minorities. The minorities are used to it, just does not cut it either. We’ve got to pick and chose, and I’m sorry but if telling people racism is wrong is going to alienate them, what else can be done? Certainly not coddle the racists, certainly not step on minorities to appease them.
I think supporting racist policies is the line - but of course there is grey there, is expanding the police racist?

I also agree that white people do need to be more understanding of problems affecting minorities. But that is harder if you live in a very white area.
Yes, we need efficient uncorrupted government but if this is the gripe it is inexplicable that a voter would turn to something like Trump unless they are stupid, gullible, or their desire is for trashing democratic authority without realizing they’d be ushering in fascism or a dictatorship,
Oh I completely agree. But I think the issue is they voted conservative before and voted for Trump as he was on the Republican ticket and they don’t pay enough attention.
 

iMi

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I want to return to this, but, wearing my election specialist hat - I don't think that the 2016 election was rigged or manipulated, - not in the sense of casting or counting or certifying votes - other than by what we already know re Russia, James Comey's unfortunate - re timing - intervention, the BernieBros (just as many left wingers are privately anti-Semitic, though they attempt to disguise this by claiming to be anti-Zionist, many on the left are also deeply misogynistic), and the usual voter suppression tactics (VR - voters' registers, few polling precincts, the fact that those who have served time in prison have been deprived of the right to exercise the franchise upon their release, gerrymandering, campaign financing etc).

I agree with a lot of what you said, but the sceptic in me questions the reasons why electronic voting machines have not been used. Election officials have been saying that this has been the most secure election in American history. How come steps were taken to make it "the most secure" and why have we use paper ballots and signature match?

I remember voting in 2016. Same place, same setup. The difference was the signature check. They didn't do that last time. There were also no electronic ballot machines. 100% paper ballots.

Of course, there may be another explanation - the pandemic. Election officials anticipated large mail in ballot turnout, which is why Trump administration attempted to destroy the postal office. Then again, why forgo electronic voting equipment for those who vote on Election Day?

Something isn't adding up...
 

lizkat

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Oh I completely agree. But I think the issue is they voted conservative before and voted for Trump as he was on the Republican ticket and they don’t pay enough attention.

Well and their media outlets are pretty saturated with right wing opinion and disinformation, thanks to outfits like Sinclair Broadcast Group having 40% of US market and being the largest owner of stations that carry Fox and other conservative TV outlets.

The 2024 presidential primaries will be interesting at the right end of the USA's spectrum even assuming Trump may well not be running. The GOP trying to sort themselves out in the meantime --short term-- might be entertaining, but no one has a clue now how the midterms will go or even what the focus of federal politics will be.

We know that the incoming House on the GOP side is a bunch of vocal far righties, with some go-along Rs keeping their own counsel or having learned phrases that kept them from being primaried from the farther right in 2020.

We're not sure yet how Rs in the House will perform for their constituents' actual needs after the Biden administration is sworn in. We need bipartisan effort to launch a good recovery from the economic ravages of covid. That sounds laugh-worthy to me as I write the words at the moment. But we're also not sure how red-district constituents or the American public overall will react to any lingering antics on part of GOP House to continue trying to delegitimize the Biden government.

So long as the House gavel remains in Dem hands, this Trump version of the GOP will just be pretty noisy. But noise is what fuels the media and social media outlets that do energize Trump followers. That's what they pay attention to, not whatever's really going on in the world of observable facts. Otherwise we wouldn't be where we are with covid and the vaccines just starting to roll out.
 

iMi

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I suspect Putin did hack the election in 2016.

Electronic voting machines are susceptible. There have been plenty of well informed people showing the public exactly how susceptible.

Like here:


There was also like a 12 year old computer student who successfully hacked a voting machine and changed voted.

Add to this the fact that Russia has invested heavily in cyber warfare and the pieces fit. What is amazing is that Americans don't seem to realize we're at war with Russia, but that's another topic.
 

Huntn

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I think supporting racist policies is the line - but of course there is grey there, is expanding the police racist?

I also agree that white people do need to be more understanding of problems affecting minorities. But that is harder if you live in a very white area.

Oh I completely agree. But I think the issue is they voted conservative before and voted for Trump as he was on the Republican ticket and they don’t pay enough attention.
I think they have turned a blind eye for perceived advantage which is much worse than not paying attention.
 

Scepticalscribe

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For what it is worth - and, again, wearing my election specialist's hat - personal, (and professionally) I prefer a paper ballot, and a paper trail.

I suspect Putin did hack the election in 2016.

Nothing I have read anywhere suggests that such a thing ever occurred.

Moreover, in the international election observation circles where I worked, and have worked, had this been assumed to have happened, it would have been a major topic of conversation at formal and informal gatherings, subsequently.

Now, whether he influenced the election, and the outcome of the election, or interfered in the election (through social media, carrots & sticks, cf the Mueller report) is another matter entirely.

Furthermore, - but this is for the US to deal with - quite apart from the well known - and serious - issues that already exist: Let's enumerate a few of them: Voters' registers (and obstacles placed in the way of minorities and the poor who seek registration); the numbers (both in absolute and in percentage terms) behind bars, - approximately 1% of the entire population, which is astronomical in a western democracy - especially of young men from minority backgrounds, who are deprived of the franchise as a consequence - i.e. conditional citizenship, rather than automatic citizenship; re-districting/gerrymandering still in the hands who those bodies who may benefit from such re-drawing; insufficient numbers of polling stations/polling precincts in some areas - there is also the whole matter of questionable democratic legitimacy if elections continue to return candidates to office (as has already happened twice this century) who have won the popular vote but did not win the Electoral College.

Such a divergence between the popular vote and the electoral outcome - inevitably - will raise questions of legitimacy for the system.

And that is entirely apart from other issues of importance such as campaign financing, and the role of the media.
 

Eraserhead

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So for the latter 2 claims mean basically half the Republican Party believes in fairy tales as usual. But that has been true for a while unfortunately.

With the original claim it is a fact that the market COVID started in is just down the street from the Chinese government chemical weapons centre so it’s not out of all possibility it escaped from there.
 
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With the original claim it is a fact that the market COVID started in is just down the street from the Chinese government chemical weapons centre so it’s not out of all possibility it escaped from there.
It's a claim as valid as the claims of electoral fraud.
 

dogslobber

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The Republican Party don't have an AOC type figure to polarize their base. Who is emerging? Mitt Romney is making a lot of noise but I'm not sure if he's doing that due to being humiliated back when Trump was voted in, and now he's putting the boot in when Trump is down in the dirt. Then there's Rafael 'Ted' Cruz, Texas's very own Cuban-Canadian Senator who is spouting terribly un-Cuban and un-Canadian things. Is he a rightful air? You also have a handful of noise makers who just seem like Pence type cardboard cutouts. My feeling is that the Republican Party puppet will be driven by Trump until he goes senile.
 

Eraserhead

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It's a claim as valid as the claims of electoral fraud.
It’s not. The Chinese haven’t allowed an impartial investigation into the origins of the virus. There have been those into the fraud allegations.


The Republican Party don't have an AOC type figure to polarize their base. Who is emerging? Mitt Romney is making a lot of noise but I'm not sure if he's doing that due to being humiliated back when Trump was voted in, and now he's putting the boot in when Trump is down in the dirt. Then there's Rafael 'Ted' Cruz, Texas's very own Cuban-Canadian Senator who is spouting terribly un-Cuban and un-Canadian things. Is he a rightful air? You also have a handful of noise makers who just seem like Pence type cardboard cutouts. My feeling is that the Republican Party puppet will be driven by Trump until he goes senile.

Trump will be in prison pretty soon. Let’s see what that does.
 
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