Mac mini vs. Mac Studio

[Cmaier]

Have you seen any tech info on the M2 P-core μArch yet? I kinda wonder if there might be a no-E-core SoC for some desk-targeted M2s.

Nope,. Haven’t seen anything yet. Just the paltry info we have about A15.

 

[mr_roboto]

I've mentioned it over at the other place, but I think there's a good chance that M2 family chips will be built with A16 generation CPU and GPU cores. Since A10X, Apple has maintained a pattern with alternating years: odd-numbered generations of A-series chips were iPhone / low end iPad only, while even generations also had a second tapeout of the bigger 'X'/'Z' chip for high end iPad. M1 was really A14X, so if this pattern continues A16X is M2.

Obviously that might have been a temporary thing, but it makes some kind of sense to me that they might want to keep doing it. Reduces how many tapeouts they have to do, and each Mac can live with a major refresh every 2 years.

 

[Cmaier]

I've mentioned it over at the other place, but I think there's a good chance that M2 family chips will be built with A16 generation CPU and GPU cores. Since A10X, Apple has maintained a pattern with alternating years: odd-numbered generations of A-series chips were iPhone / low end iPad only, while even generations also had a second tapeout of the bigger 'X'/'Z' chip for high end iPad. M1 was really A14X, so if this pattern continues A16X is M2.

Obviously that might have been a temporary thing, but it makes some kind of sense to me that they might want to keep doing it. Reduces how many tapeouts they have to do, and each Mac can live with a major refresh every 2 years.

It’s possible. But a lot of the changes to a15 made little sense for the phone but make a lot of sense if your intention is to scale frequency upward (for macs)

 

[Joelist]

I see that it is an iMac being replaced? If yes then perhaps a specced up iMac 24 is a closer match?

 

[B01L]

My iMac needs replacing...
My iMac is 10 years old...

...difficult to suggest a course of action without knowing what you will do with the machine.

...3d work, cad stuff. I'm getting more into 3d printing, so I need some capability there. Adobe Creative cloud, etc. Of course the normal minor stuff like email, online krapola and what not.

Mac Studio would be the choice then, but if you can wait until after WWDC, there may be other options, Mn Pro-powered Mac mini perhaps...?

Have you seen any tech info on the M2 P-core μArch yet? I kinda wonder if there might be a no-E-core SoC for some desk-targeted M2s.

Nope,. Haven’t seen anything yet. Just the paltry info we have about A15.

It’s possible. But a lot of the changes to a15 made little sense for the phone but make a lot of sense if your intention is to scale frequency upward (for macs)

Higher clocks for desktop models would be a Good Thing...!

I see that it is an iMac being replaced? If yes then perhaps a specced up iMac 24 is a closer match?

In form factor only, OP usage requirements (see above) would indicate the Mac Studio a better choice...

 

[Colstan]

Gurman is leaking again, this time with model numbers for Macs that are showing up in third-party logs for programs from the App Store. Relevant to this discussion are the new Mac mini models:

• A Mac mini with an M2 chip, codenamed J473. There’s also an "M2 Pro" variation, codenamed J474, in testing. Gurman claims that the standard M2 will have 8 CPU cores, unchanged from the M1, while upping the GPU count from 8 cores to 9 or 10 cores. In a previous article, he said that the M2 Pro would feature 12 CPU cores, up from 10 in the M1 Pro, while the GPU core count would remain unchanged at 16 cores.
• Apple is also testing a Mac mini with an M1 Pro chip, the same processor used in the entry-level 14-inch and 16-inch MacBook Pros today. That machine is codenamed J374. The company has tested an M1 Max version of the Mac mini as well, but the new Mac Studio may make these machines redundant.

This is my own speculation, but I imagine that we have seen the last of the M1 line, so the M2 Mac minis are the models that are of interest. I suggested earlier in this thread that an M2 Pro version might fill the void between the standard Mac mini and the Mac Studio. This model could have a good price/performance ratio. The last remaining Intel Mac mini with a 6-core i5 is currently $1,100. The M2 Pro will likely replace the Intel model and have a price in the same neighborhood, adjusted for inflation, perhaps starting at around $1,200. That fills a hole in the desktop lineup and would be an attractive option.

 

[Yoused]

This is starting to feel a bit like the mid '90s, when a person would buy a PC and it would be nearly obsolete by the time they got the box into the trunk. I want to get one, but not too soon.

 

[Cmaier]

This is starting to feel a bit like the mid '90s, when a person would buy a PC and it would be nearly obsolete by the time they got the box into the trunk. I want to get one, but not too soon.

Given that the average M1-based mac is already faster than the vast majority of desktop/laptop computers for most use cases, saying that they are “obsolete” when M2 machines come out is a bit of a stretch. M2 will likely beat M1 by no more than 15%-20% on a per-core basis.

 

[Yoused]

Given that the average M1-based mac is already faster than the vast majority of desktop/laptop computers for most use cases, saying that they are “obsolete” when M2 machines come out is a bit of a stretch. M2 will likely beat M1 by no more than 15%-20% on a per-core basis.

Apple will add some sort of ASIC subunit/complex that does some little thing that no one had considered before because the job is so very specific, but when tied into macOS, the performance gain will be impressive. I believe they have people studying these corner strategies for making the overall performance faster by offloading niggling little housework-type things to specialized logic because they are building for a specific OS, something other SoC vendors just cannot really do.

 

[Colstan]

Given that the average M1-based mac is already faster than the vast majority of desktop/laptop computers for most use cases

The Apple Studio Display with an A13 is faster than most PCs currently in use.

This is starting to feel a bit like the mid '90s, when a person would buy a PC and it would be nearly obsolete by the time they got the box into the trunk. I want to get one, but not too soon.

This is a good thing, because we had over a half-decade of stagnation because Intel couldn't innovate and nobody was pushing them. My philosophy has always been to use what you have for as long as possible, then when you need something new, get the best computer you can reasonably afford, and then enjoy it to the fullest. I'm currently looking to switch during the theoretical M3 generation. I typically wait for version three of any new technology, which includes TSMC's next major node, most software will have native ARM support, and Apple Silicon Macs will have supplanted x86 systems in total market share. That being said, the first generation has been amazing and I'm really looking forward to how Apple builds upon their early successes.

 

[Yoused]

I kind of wish Apple would go up against Qualcomm and release an SoC to the general market that was almost as good as the M series – like, 2 generations behind but still better than most ARM SoCs out there, just to spur interest in developing for the arch. They could do it "surreptitiously" through a shell company. Just, anything to get the broader community moving off of their x86 addiction. x86 just needs to go the way of the Z800000.

 

[B01L]

I have been going over the numbers for a Mn Pro Mac mini, and I will finally admit defeat...! ;^p

At this point it seems the only logical solution might be for the Mac mini to remain the domain of the base Mn SoC, and the Mn Pro SoC is added as a low-end option for the Mac Studio chassis...?

A Mac Studio with the following specs could be the new entry-level (for the Mac Studio, not overall):

• Double-binned M1 Pro SoC
• 8-core CPU (6P/2E)
• 14-core GPU
• 16GB LPDDR5 SDRAM
• 512GB NVMe SSD
• $1099

If Apple were to offer this low-end Mac studio with Gigabit Ethernet (rather than the stock 10GbE, but that $100 upgrade is available!), then the Mac Studio could have three entry tiers:

• M1 Pro @ $999
• M1 Max @ $1999
• M1 Ultra @ $3999

 

[Nycturne]

I guess I remain skeptical here. Does the Mn Pro need the extra heatsink and cooling? Is the Mac Mini going to go with a smaller cooler with a redesign that precludes being able to cool an Mn Pro? Because of the larger size, if you can fit ~two Mac Minis on a palette for every Mac Studio, and the Mac Mini can house an Mn Pro, why use the larger chassis and pay more in unit costs (both material and logistics) if it isn’t necessary? Tim Cook of all people would be well aware of that angle.

An Mn Pro Mini would also happen to fill a role the 2018 Mac Mini was really good at as being a rack-friendly Mac for the various things you have to do on Apple hardware that Amazon, Mac Stadium and others provide. Maybe Apple wants to carve out a good chunk of that market with Xcode Cloud, but who knows.

I could be wrong, and we will see how this plays out. But I‘m also happy to sit and wait. All I really know is that I’d really appreciate either getting access to Xcode Cloud, or an Mn Pro Mini/Studio as a SOHO server.

 

[Yoused]

if you can fit ~two Mac Minis on a palette for every Mac Studio, and the Mac Mini can house an Mn Pro, why use the larger chassis

The M1 Pro only appears in 14 & 16 MBPs. Studios start with Max, which looks to be just shy twice the size of Pro. Most likely the bulkiness of the Studio is because of a way-over-specced cooling system, in an effort to make them as quiet as possible (and a bit of cya).

 

[B01L]

The M1 Pro only appears in 14 & 16 MBPs. Studios start with Max, which looks to be just shy twice the size of Pro. Most likely the bulkiness of the Studio is because of a way-over-specced cooling system, in an effort to make them as quiet as possible (and a bit of cya).

Watch a teardown video of the Mac Studio, it is a dense bit of engineering...

The cooling system is engineered for the M1 Ultra SoC; but the heat sink is different between the M1 Max & M1 Ultra models (aluminum versus copper), the blower fans are the same for either model...

This heat sink / blower fans combo takes up a good portion of the top of the internals in the Mac Studio chassis, probably a Mac mini worth of space... ;^p

 

[Cmaier]

Watch a teardown video of the Mac Studio, it is a dense bit of engineering...

The cooling system is engineered for the M1 Ultra SoC; but the heat sink is different between the M1 Max & M1 Ultra models (aluminum versus copper), the blower fans are the same for either model...

This heat sink / blower fans combo takes up a good portion of the top of the internals in the Mac Studio chassis, probably a Mac mini worth of space... ;^p

Part of the issue with the thermal engineering on the studio is the aspect ratio. Because the width and length of the studio are fairly short, they had to go vertical with the air flow. If they made the box more of a pizza box (like the old sun workstations), they could have gotten away with the cooling solution taking a smaller proportion of the overall volume, I think. I think it’s even technically feasible to stick an ultra in something like an iMac Pro (though it would probably have to be moderately thicker than recent iMacs).

Thermal engineering is really interesting because geometry plays a very important role. You need to move a sufficient current of air, and the airflow has to be turbulant, not laminar. You can get the current you need by increasing air volume or increasing air speed, and that choice affects noise. Fun stuff.

 

[Yoused]

the airflow has to be turbulant, not laminar

So maybe you want the fans to be slightly out of phase with each other – which woud also have the benefit of making what noise the air does produce non-periodic but more randomish.

 

[Renzatic]

...which woud also have the benefit of making what noise the air does produce non-periodic but more randomish.

That could end up being worse. A constant hum has the advantage of turning into background noise you can easily tune out, while a constantly changing pitch will always make itself known.

 

[Joelist]

I have to think the big issue is use case. The M1 Mac Mini gives a VERY performant machine in most normal use cases. The Studio is aimed more at specific use cases.

 

[Eric]

I'll just say that after working with the Mac Studio for the last week it's been awesome to have PS, LR and GarageBand all up and running with no lag whatsoever.