More on the Chinese balloon US overflight

shadow puppet

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Another one bites the dust (water). Over Lake Huron.

Was just coming to see if anyone had shared. One person I follow who's worked for years in the area keeping tabs on these kind of things said he's legit never seen anything like this.
 

lizkat

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Another one bites the dust (water). Over Lake Huron.

Maybe Chuck Schumer should have kept his mouth shut instead of suggesting that the Chinese were "humiliated" by our having shot down their stuff. I mean so far China (or whoever the stuff belongs to) doesn't really seem all that humiliated, would you say?

On the other hand the Chinese apparently apologized at one point saying that they put up a weather balloon and it got away from intended positioning.

That's starting to sound lame enough at this point that they must be scrambling to prepare a few different accounts for these spinoffs... unless of course Kim Jong Un's nose got out of joint and he's who launched the smaller ones, not to be outdone by his rival up the way.

It's starting to remind me of the last season of The Wire where the cop who invented a serial killer and a reporter dying to make a splashy set of bylines start feeding each other's respective lines of BS and scaring each other and the city half to death.

USA to China: ok, just stop already.
China to USA: those little jobs? they're not us, why would we bother.
USA to NK: ok, just stop already.
NK to USA: I have it on good authority that those belong to Iran.
USA to Switzerland: Uh... if you wouldn't mind,,,,
Iran to the Palestinian Authority: Is that stupid stuff yours or does it belong to Yemen?
MBS to the USA: you guys don't get it, do you.
 

Eric

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If we flew balloons in their airspace we would fully expect them to shoot them down as well, as would any nation in their right mind, like Iran did with one of our drones in 2019. Don't want it swatted out of the sky? Keep it out of our airspace.

If China sees this as retaliation for something Schumer said and they think this is the best way to respond and squander their resources then let them have at it. IMO we should be showing a strong and unified front as we give them the collective middle finger with all the other sovereign nations standing up against it as well.
 

Citysnaps

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I wonder if upcoming McCarthy and McCaul visits to Taiwan have something to do with China's messing with us?

 

lizkat

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If we flew balloons in their airspace we would fully expect them to shoot them down as well, as would any nation in their right mind, like Iran did with one of our drones in 2019. Don't want it swatted out of the sky? Keep it out of our airspace.

If China sees this as retaliation for something Schumer said and they think this is the best way to respond and squander their resources then let them have at it. IMO we should be showing a strong and unified front as we give them the collective middle finger with all the other sovereign nations standing up against it as well.

I don't think Schumer's choice of phrasing was at all appropriate. We don't need gotcha hyperpartisan language feeding the media frenzy around this series of balloon discoveries. I'm pretty sure there's more to this story than will or can particularly soon meet public understanding... and so that only means there will be plenty opportunity for the public to take exception to whatever the media feed us.

In particular, regarding the word "humiliation": much has formally been made, and I mean historically, and by China itself, of China's perceived and actual humiliation in the 19th century, when there were multiple foreign powers homing in on what they saw as prime territory for exploitation versus weakening Chinese dynasties.

In fact the Chinese themselves, as their nationalism rose in the early 20th century, did characterize their turf with maps actually labeled "the map of humiliation," showing the regions controlled either then or in the 19th century by, variously, British, Japanese, American, French and other European interests. The "map of humiliation" was included as part of Chinese nationalists' call for a domestic movement to put an end to all that foreign exploitation.

So the very word "humiliation" has a special and lingering connotation to China from only about a hundred years ago. It's a connotation that I don't think is in our own interests in the USA to resurrect. We do better with each other when we keep the focus on trying to resolve political differences diplomatically and otherwise maintain a competitive economic partnership within the loop of world trade protocols that both nations are signed onto.

Last year our bilateral trade with China wrapped up at $690 billion, and now that covid is receding enough to permit it, American CEOs are resuming visits to China and surely also sitting down with Congress critters to remind them that we have not only a department of defense but a department of commerce.

We need China. China needs us. Our two populations do both benefit from the supply chain and export arrangements now for decades. Both countries' governments and military leaders do know that. And they should both quit messing around trying to prove they can approach critical mass of a blow-up without going there.

I don't have a problem with re-balancing some aspects of the USA's supply chain to better serve actual interests of the USA, instead of just the bottom lines of behemoth corporations trying to beat down labor costs, but I very much dislike all the drum beating that escalates tensions between the two countries.

There are tradeoffs in everything. China and the USA should be cooperating in trying making the planet safer and more prosperous for all our citizens. Instead we're hurling insults at each other and amping up hostile maneuvers in and around each other's turf. I expect better de-escalation efforts from Biden, better from the majority leader of the US Senate. The prez and Chuck Schumer are both starting to talk like neocon House candidates on the campaign trail. This is not that season. Maybe they should let Blinken and his counterpart in China do the talking behind closed doors for awhile, and draw in the backchannel military counterparts from both countries too. Chew the fat and toast some marshmallows.

And of course China should quit shipping balloons into the winds that fetch them into our airspace. But they're not going to be motivated to do that when Schumer brings up the loaded topic of "humiliation."
 

Eric

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I don't think Schumer's choice of phrasing was at all appropriate. We don't need gotcha hyperpartisan language feeding the media frenzy around this series of balloon discoveries. I'm pretty sure there's more to this story than will or can particularly soon meet public understanding... and so that only means there will be plenty opportunity for the public to take exception to whatever the media feed us.

In particular, regarding the word "humiliation": much has formally been made, and I mean historically, and by China itself, of China's perceived and actual humiliation in the 19th century, when there were multiple foreign powers homing in on what they saw as prime territory for exploitation versus weakening Chinese dynasties.

In fact the Chinese themselves, as their nationalism rose in the early 20th century, did characterize their turf with maps actually labeled "the map of humiliation," showing the regions controlled either then or in the 19th century by, variously, British, Japanese, American, French and other European interests. The "map of humiliation" was included as part of Chinese nationalists' call for a domestic movement to put an end to all that foreign exploitation.

So the very word "humiliation" has a special and lingering connotation to China from only about a hundred years ago. It's a connotation that I don't think is in our own interests in the USA to resurrect. We do better with each other when we keep the focus on trying to resolve political differences diplomatically and otherwise maintain a competitive economic partnership within the loop of world trade protocols that both nations are signed onto.

Last year our bilateral trade with China wrapped up at $690 billion, and now that covid is receding enough to permit it, American CEOs are resuming visits to China and surely also sitting down with Congress critters to remind them that we have not only a department of defense but a department of commerce.

We need China. China needs us. Our two populations do both benefit from the supply chain and export arrangements now for decades. Both countries' governments and military leaders do know that. And they should both quit messing around trying to prove they can approach critical mass of a blow-up without going there.

I don't have a problem with re-balancing some aspects of the USA's supply chain to better serve actual interests of the USA, instead of just the bottom lines of behemoth corporations trying to beat down labor costs, but I very much dislike all the drum beating that escalates tensions between the two countries.

There are tradeoffs in everything. China and the USA should be cooperating in trying making the planet safer and more prosperous for all our citizens. Instead we're hurling insults at each other and amping up hostile maneuvers in and around each other's turf. I expect better de-escalation efforts from Biden, better from the majority leader of the US Senate. The prez and Chuck Schumer are both starting to talk like neocon House candidates on the campaign trail. This is not that season. Maybe they should let Blinken and his counterpart in China do the talking behind closed doors for awhile, and draw in the backchannel military counterparts from both countries too. Chew the fat and toast some marshmallows.

And of course China should quit shipping balloons into the winds that fetch them into our airspace. But they're not going to be motivated to do that when Schumer brings up the loaded topic of "humiliation."
I say we don't walk on eggshells around them, don't surveil us and we won't have to humiliate you. If they respected our airspace none of it would be necessary. Going to agree to disagree on this one. :)
 

AG_PhamD

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Does this mean what I think it means? What the heck is going on?

View attachment 21794

Not sure if this is related, but reportedly the military has shot down “object” #4 over Lake Huron.


This is getting a little ridiculous. It’s high time for some answers.

Edit: you guys beat me to it!
 
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AG_PhamD

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I have a little bit of a hard time assuming the subsequent “objects” were Chinese. If they got caught red handed the first time and essentially admitted it- with their excuse being off course balloon, it seems hard to justify another 3 incursions. Unless they really want to he pushing it politically.

I find it interesting the government/military has been using the term “objects” for the subsequent craft. The fact they’ve been operating at 40,000ft, while totally possible for a balloon, is well within the expected altitude for a typical jet engine. Along with the description of being silver and cylindrical, this at least points towards the possibility of being drones. Though of course a ballon could also meet that description. It would be nice to know the reported speed. But I suppose we find out. Hopefully.
 

Citysnaps

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Along with the description of being silver and cylindrical, this at least points towards the possibility of being drones.

I suppose it could be a balloon inside a cylinder. Or a sealed lightweight cylinder containing helium or hydrogen.

When I was a kid I made my own hydrogen, filled a balloon with it, taped a fuse to the outside of the balloon, lit the fuse and released the balloon. About 30-40 feet off the ground you'd get a nice fireball. :)

Did a lot of fun stuff when I was a kid.
 
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Roller

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The way things are going, we’re going to scramble jets every time someone lets a party balloon go.
 

lizkat

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Meanwhile, not wanting to feel left out of the news cycles, China tweets about a UFO over by them

not to feel left out.jpg
 

AG_PhamD

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I suppose it could be a balloon inside a cylinder. Or a sealed lightweight cylinder containing helium or hydrogen.

When I was a kid I made my own hydrogen, filled a balloon with it, taped a fuse to the outside of the balloon, lit the fuse and released the balloon. About 30-40 feet off the ground you'd get a nice fireball. :)

Did a lot of fun stuff when I was a kid.

The most recent “object” being shot down has been reported as octagonal. I would imagine that has to be some type of balloon or dirigible or blimp.

I would hope they’re not using hydrogen, whoever “they” is. That would be rather dangerous.

The UFO people will be very disappointed if they learn these craft are not extra-terrestrial or extra-dimensional. While there are certainly a few weird occurrences that defy explanation as reported, I think most can be explained by balloons, airships, or drones.
 

Citysnaps

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The most recent “object” being shot down has been reported as octagonal. I would imagine that has to be some type of balloon or dirigible or blimp.

That's interesting. I assume that means three dimensionally octagonal and hollow which would contain helium, rather than say, a flat piece of metal that's octagonal, like a STOP sign carried aloft by a helium balloon.

I'm guessing the goal of using an octagonal volume is to *enhance* detection; where no matter it's orientation, there would be a decent radar return from one (possibly a few) of many flat surfaces, as opposed to a sphere.

If the above is true, it seems the goal would be to light up adversary (US) air defense systems; ie different kinds of radar systems and communications systems, both ground based and from engaging fighter aircraft. That would be valuable information and could be collected via satellite/ship/spies, or maybe even a larger balloon with intercept equipment (not in this most recent case).
 

lizkat

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AG_PhamD

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That's interesting. I assume that means three dimensionally octagonal and hollow which would contain helium, rather than say, a flat piece of metal that's octagonal, like a STOP sign carried aloft by a helium balloon.

I'm guessing the goal of using an octagonal volume is to *enhance* detection; where no matter it's orientation, there would be a decent radar return from one (possibly a few) of many flat surfaces, as opposed to a sphere.

If the above is true, it seems the goal would be to light up adversary (US) air defense systems; ie different kinds of radar systems and communications systems, both ground based and from engaging fighter aircraft. That would be valuable information and could be collected via satellite/ship/spies, or maybe even a larger balloon with intercept equipment (not in this most recent case).

I originally envisioned a flying stop sign myself. It’s indeed an espionage craft, perhaps it’s angled that way to best attain 360 coverage of radar or whatever sensors they are using. Or to maximize surface area for flat solar panels if they cannot adequately maintain an ideal orientation to the sun. It’s also not exactly clear if this was the payload on a balloon for instance or the craft itself. Or perhaps it’s a UFO with aerodynamics we just can’t comprehend :D

On the other hand, “octagonal” could be a oversimplification and perhaps it was more geometric than a basic octagon- for stealth properties. But if it is an airship, then theoretically you could use materials with very little if any radar reflectivity- especially if it’s a balloon or blimp as opposed to a dirigible (which has a rigid structure to support the inflated material). But even a dirigible that small could presumably use plastics with little radar reflectivity.

If I’m not mistaken, a spherical shape is not ideal for mitigation of radar return because no matter what direction the radar is coming from, you will get some level return. Whereas with angular, facetted surfaces, the radar will only reflect directly at the source if it’s hit at a pretty specific angle. This is allegedly why some newer submarines (ie British Astute Class) are more of a geometric teardrop shape instead of a cylinder (except in this case presumably related more to sonar than radar). When you look at stealth aircraft (including drones) and ships, there are virtually no spherical surfaces. Where there are curved surfaces, they are not anything close to a sphere.

My understanding is that the “stealth” of balloons has more to do with the material (ie Mylar) being more radar transparent than reflective than their actual geometry.
 

Citysnaps

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I originally envisioned a flying stop sign myself. It’s indeed an espionage craft, perhaps it’s angled that way to best attain 360 coverage of radar or whatever sensors they are using. Or to maximize surface area for flat solar panels if they cannot adequately maintain an ideal orientation to the sun. It’s also not exactly clear if this was the payload on a balloon for instance or the craft itself. Or perhaps it’s a UFO with aerodynamics we just can’t comprehend :D

On the other hand, “octagonal” could be a oversimplification and perhaps it was more geometric than a basic octagon- for stealth properties. But if it is an airship, then theoretically you could use materials with very little if any radar reflectivity- especially if it’s a balloon or blimp as opposed to a dirigible (which has a rigid structure to support the inflated material). But even a dirigible that small could presumably use plastics with little radar reflectivity.

If I’m not mistaken, a spherical shape is not ideal for mitigation of radar return because no matter what direction the radar is coming from, you will get some level return. Whereas with angular, facetted surfaces, the radar will only reflect directly at the source if it’s hit at a pretty specific angle. This is allegedly why some newer submarines (ie British Astute Class) are more of a geometric teardrop shape instead of a cylinder (except in this case presumably related more to sonar than radar). When you look at stealth aircraft (including drones) and ships, there are virtually no spherical surfaces. Where there are curved surfaces, they are not anything close to a sphere.

My understanding is that the “stealth” of balloons has more to do with the material (ie Mylar) being more radar transparent than reflective than their actual geometry.

I think the "objects," (not the 200' balloon with 100' boom and intercept equipment - a different story and purpose) especially if it has *multiple* flat facets (an octagonal sphere), one of which will be normal (90 degrees) to the incident incoming radar energy and thus will reflect back at 90 degrees as it maneuvers, is passive and designed to be intentionally detected by the US and thus trigger air defense systems. So that information can be gleaned by an adversary about our defensive/communication systems and our responses (sending out fighter jets, putting other bases on alert, notifying Washington, etc).
 
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Eric

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As did I and have a BB permanently in my hand to prove it. But this is next level :)
My older brother has one stuck in his chest right next to his heart from when he was a kid goofing off with friends as a kid, doctors said it was not safe enough to remove it so they just left it.
 

Herdfan

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My older brother has one stuck in his chest right next to his heart from when he was a kid goofing off with friends as a kid, doctors said it was not safe enough to remove it so they just left it.

Back in Jr. High when we would have 2 hour delays for snow, I would ride with my dad to my friend's house and we would walk over when it was time. So we were in his basement shooting Army men with his Red Ryder BB gun. (He had a small indoor BB trap his dad built). We somehow when I grabbed the gun, it fired and hit him square in the man zone. So he grabs his brother's CO2 BB gun and starts chasing me around the basement. He was trying to shoot me in the butt, but I put my hand back there and the BB went into my hand. Didn't realize it was actually in my hand until I got home and was favoring it. It almost made it all the way through and is currently lodged right between my index and middle finger. You can feel it if you press a bit between them.

Dr. didn't want to try and remove it for the same reason. Of course, I was just looking at damaged nerves in my hand and not a heart issue. So after 40+ years it is still there. But when I got the X-Ray, it showed up like the brightest star in the sky. LOL
 
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