Mac New Game Porting Toolkit is Wine

Jimmyjames

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His take is, like many long-time Mac users, overly negative concerning Apple's latest Mac gaming endeavors. Unlike Siracusa and that developer over at Feral, Andrew's opinion isn't entirely without merit. I think he's missing the overarching point by focusing on game porting kit. Apple is pushing hard to bring native games to the Mac. The Mac doesn't need every PC game available, just enough to satisfy the market. I don't know what the mix between macOS and Linux versions of CrossOver sales are, but Proton is filling that void in Linux land.

If both efforts succeed, then CrossOver for gaming purposes becomes diminished. I don't see Apple's gaming porting kit for running Windows games as a long-term death blow to CodeWeavers. It's a short-term project to attract game developers. CodeWeavers may suffer in the immediate aftermath, but Apple won't support it forever, either because their efforts to court game developers are successful, or Apple gives up on the gaming market. However, if Apple does succeed, then the need for CrossOver is going to wane over time.

Perhaps CodeWeavers can refocus on productivity applications, but they are clearly currently focused on running Windows games. Another issue to keep in mind is that Rosetta 2 isn't going to last forever, which CrossOver depends upon, and that could be another struggle. WINE has always been chasing a moving target, it's not an ideal solution, but if Apple is successful, then CrossOver may become obsolete.

On a personal note, I've tried the various WINE solutions, as well as Parallels for Windows virtualization. I've found all of those to be lacking and have never done anything more than testing with them. I'm a "go native or go home" user when it comes to playing computer games. I'm glad that multiple solutions such as these exist, others clearly find them useful for gaming, but they are subpar experiences, in my experience.
It’s the turn around that baffles. He was really positive a few days ago. Now we can’t trust Apple because they have cancelled projects previously and are ruining open source work because they won’t donate their dx12 to metal translator(thereby ruining any chance of native Mac games). It sounds hysterical.
 

Colstan

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It’s the turn around that baffles. He was really positive a few days ago. Now we can’t trust Apple because they have cancelled projects previously and are ruining open source work because they won’t donate their dx12 to metal translator(thereby ruining any chance of native Mac games). It sounds hysterical.
Andrew has historically been a level-headed guy. I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt, because his job isn't to pontificate or rant, like some others in the Apple sphere. He tends to be reasonable in his presentation. I think after the exuberance of Apple's game porting kit wore off, the implications of it became more clear. It's possible to think this is a good thing for the Mac ecosystem and running Windows-only games, while also thinking it is bad for CrossOver and WINE. I didn't personally see it as contradictory, but perhaps my observation is incorrect.

Even Stewie (MrMacRight) ended his post-WWDC Top 10 games video with some pessimism about the future. We've seen this circus act before, it was nothing more than a side show. Hopefully, this time it's the main act. There's a lot of reason for optimism, but we should have a healthy skepticism. Apple is aware of the Mac's historical deficiencies and is working to provide a better future for Mac gamers. I tend to trust Apple over the naysayers, but I've also seen this rodeo many times.
 

Jimmyjames

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Andrew has historically been a level-headed guy. I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt, because his job isn't to pontificate or rant, like some others in the Apple sphere. He tends to be reasonable in his presentation. I think after the exuberance of Apple's game porting kit wore off, the implications of it became more clear. It's possible to think this is a good thing for the Mac ecosystem and running Windows-only games, while also thinking it is bad for CrossOver and WINE. I didn't personally see it as contradictory, but perhaps my observation is incorrect.

Even Stewie (MrMacRight) ended his post-WWDC Top 10 games video with some pessimism about the future. We've seen this circus act before, it was nothing more than a side show. Hopefully, this time it's the main act. There's a lot of reason for optimism, but we should have a healthy skepticism. Apple is aware of the Mac's historical deficiencies and is working to provide a better future for Mac gamers. I tend to trust Apple over the naysayers, but I've also seen this rodeo many times.
I really like Andrew. I subscribe to his feed on youtube. Apple criticism is justified, especially with regard to gaming. I do think his aims and Apples wishes are different though. It’s clear he wants windows games a la proton. That isn’t what Apple wants afaik. I also think this “Apple cancelled something and therefore they will cancel this” is a little silly. There isn’t much reason to think Rosetta 2 will be removed anytime soon.
 

Colstan

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I do think his aims and Apples wishes are different though. It’s clear he wants windows games a la proton.
That's a fair point. I appreciate Andrew's benchmarking and presentation, but he does care a lot about tweaking and compatibility layers. In terms of philosophy, I'm more aligned with MrMacRight, in that I want native titles, not hacks to run PC games. Virtualization, WINE, and perhaps eventually Asahi Linux will have their place, mainly for older or less demanding games. For those like me who care about a performant solution for new titles, native is the only way forward, and I think Apple is fully aware of that.
 

Jimmyjames

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That's a fair point. I appreciate Andrew's benchmarking and presentation, but he does care a lot about tweaking and compatibility layers. In terms of philosophy, I'm more aligned with MrMacRight, in that I want native titles, not hacks to run PC games. Virtualization, WINE, and perhaps eventually Asahi Linux will have their place, mainly for older or less demanding games. For those like me who care about a performant solution for new titles, native is the only way forward, and I think Apple is fully aware of that.
Agreed. That’s what I want as well. I do think it’s clear that it’s also what Apple wants.
 

quarkysg

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IMHO solutions like CrossOver/Wine is a slap in the face for Apple. If macOS has to depend on such solutions to thrive, it means that macOS is not succeeding.

I have a sneaky suspicion that Apple wants CrossOver/Wine to fail on macOS.
 

exoticspice1

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IMHO solutions like CrossOver/Wine is a slap in the face for Apple. If macOS has to depend on such solutions to thrive, it means that macOS is not succeeding.

I have a sneaky suspicion that Apple wants CrossOver/Wine to fail on macOS.
Valve relies on Wine and if the gaming behemoth cannot get native ports for the Steam Deck, a device meant for gaming then Apple has no chance of native ports at same pace as PC or even come close.
 

mr_roboto

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IMHO solutions like CrossOver/Wine is a slap in the face for Apple. If macOS has to depend on such solutions to thrive, it means that macOS is not succeeding.

I have a sneaky suspicion that Apple wants CrossOver/Wine to fail on macOS.
If they want CrossOver to fail, they've been going about it in extremely counterproductive way. Apple has done some things to make CrossOver's job easier, most notably making it possible to run 32-bit x86 code in Rosetta 2 (which CodeWeavers needed to get 32-bit x86 Windows apps running on Apple Silicon).

I view it as much the same thing as their support for Asahi Linux. They're never going to put enough into it, or do enough that's explicitly only about Linux, or even say that they're doing it for Linux, that you'll see a headline about Apple supporting Linux. As you say, Apple's public stance is that macOS and native apps are all you should need. However, current leadership seems to understand that stances are not reality. Some software may never get ported, and having a path to run it is a positive thing for a subset of Mac owners.
 

dada_dave

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If they want CrossOver to fail, they've been going about it in extremely counterproductive way. Apple has done some things to make CrossOver's job easier, most notably making it possible to run 32-bit x86 code in Rosetta 2 (which CodeWeavers needed to get 32-bit x86 Windows apps running on Apple Silicon).

I view it as much the same thing as their support for Asahi Linux. They're never going to put enough into it, or do enough that's explicitly only about Linux, or even say that they're doing it for Linux, that you'll see a headline about Apple supporting Linux. As you say, Apple's public stance is that macOS and native apps are all you should need. However, current leadership seems to understand that stances are not reality. Some software may never get ported, and having a path to run it is a positive thing for a subset of Mac owners.
They actually did officially call out Crossover as a way to run Windows applications (note emphasis) in one of their keynotes during the transition. I can’t remember which one, and of course the current use of the game porting toolkit, so even a couple notches above the tacit support that Asahi gets.
 

Jimmyjames

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Seems like Apple are planning on keeping GPTk up to date. It’s now at version 1.0.2. That’s good news I think, although as I’ve said before, I hope Apple aims to get people porting games, rather than creating a proton-like system.
I’m posting screenshots because I believe super genius Elon has stopped people posting links anonymously.

1688320321800.png
 

Colstan

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Seems like Apple are planning on keeping GPTk up to date. It’s now at version 1.0.2. That’s good news I think, although as I’ve said before, I hope Apple aims to get people porting games, rather than creating a proton-like system.
I think this is excellent news, in that it shows that Apple is committed to its game porting tools, which are squarely aimed at developers. That's where a lot of the confusion and consternation among the Apple tech press and some hardcore Mac users comes into play. Apple's target audience for these tools is limited to developers who want to bring their games to the Mac. That's why it's difficult to install and has a restrictive license. Apple doesn't want this to be used as a replacement for native titles.

Game Porting Kit is great technology, but upsetting a lot of nerds who want this to be a Proton solution for the Mac. It's been weaponized by PC partisans, such as Linus Tech Tips, as a way to criticize Apple and their approach to gaming, not that they needed an excuse before. The difference is that long time Mac users and press members have jumped on the bandwagon.

I've used this opportunity to drastically cut down on the amount of technology press, opinion, and commentary that I consume. Back when Apple announced the switch from Intel to Apple Silicon, I was concerned that the ongoing disruptions, which started even before the processor swap with the death of 32-bit support and announced deprecation of OpenGL, would essentially kill off the remaining game developer support that the Mac had. In fact, the switch away from x86 coincidentally coincided at the same time with my renewed interest in computer games.

From WWDC 2020, with the announcement of Apple Silicon, until WWDC 2023, I spent three years researching PC technology as a "Plan B", in case I was forced to switch. I didn't want to switch to Windows and build a custom gaming PC, but I needed to be prepared in case Mac gaming ceased to exist. I don't need access to every computer game available on PC, just enough to keep me entertained, and I had what I consider to be a legitimate concern that the Mac would no longer receive support from game developers after the upheaval of the big switch.

Instead, Apple Silicon has revitalized Mac gaming and prompted better support, from game developers and Apple itself, than I had imagined. I switched to the Mac in 2005, shortly after Steve Jobs announced the Intel version of OS X, tried it out on my custom hotrod PC of that era, and bought my first Mac a few months after WWDC. Despite rumblings from hokum merchants like Gurman, WWDC 2023 turned out to be most eventful for both Mac gaming and the platform in general. After nearly two decades of being a Mac user, this was easily my favorite WWDC. To think I almost didn't watch it because I wasn't expecting anything noteworthy regarding the Mac. Over a month later, I'm still chuffed about the presentation. Apple gave me everything I wanted: they finished the transition to Apple Silicon, macOS Sonoma looks to be a "quality of life" release, and the game porting tools were a completely unexpected surprise.

Hence, I'm pleased to say that I am able to shelve "Plan B" and never have to think about PC hardware, Windows, or the annoying PC Master Race crowd ever again. As I said, I don't need access to the entire PC library, just enough titles to keep me entertained. We're at the beginning of the era of Apple Silicon gaming.

Unfortunately, this has a had a weird side effect on long-time Mac users. We've talked about them on multiple occasions. Therefore, not only have I dumped the PC websites and channels that I used to frequent, but I've also dropped traditional Apple outlets like ATP, Snazzy Labs, and most of Andrew Tsai's content. I consider Apple's gaming efforts to be a massive positive, not because it's what I want to hear, but because Apple seems to be committed to this endeavor long-term. Quinn over at Snazzy Labs sounds like Linus, Siracusa spends all of his time ranting about how much he hates the new Mac Pro and Apple's gaming efforts are doomed to fail. Andrew Tsai is a tweaker at heart, and only cares about Game Porting Kit being available to the average Mac user, which is the opposite of its use case.

You would think that Apple Silicon and Apple's efforts with gaming would unite the general Mac community, but it's been divisive. A small but loud cohort is upset with the loss of x86, Boot Camp, third-party GPUs, and the other trappings of the Intel era; they want the Mac to become a PC, rather than embrace Apple's historical vertical integration strategy, a strategy that has allowed them to reach a $3 trillion market cap once again. Others, like Andrew Tsai, are trying to make macOS into Linux, a tweaker's delight, rather than "it just works", which is what Steve Jobs always envisioned for the Mac.

There also seems to be a divergence in focus among some traditional Apple press members. Rene Ritchie now works for Google. I don't care about Gruber's political opinions, so I stopped visiting Daring Fireball. Even Max Tech has started reviewing mini PCs as sponsorships that they otherwise would have never covered.

As a result, I've dropped a number of Apple outlets from my reading/viewing list. For gaming, I'm now squarely in the "go native or go home" philosophy. MrMacRight is the only outlet that covers that market, and really the only one necessary for that coverage. I'm glad that CrossOver, Parallels, and potentially Asahi Linux offer alternatives, but I don't consider those to be performant enough solutions for anything other than older or less demanding games, not to mention concerns about compatibility.

Regarding the general Apple/Mac press, many outlets are trying to diversify, covering PC technology, non-tech subjects, or simply losing the plot. I stopped visiting 9to5Mac because they've become obsessed with the nonsense happening with social media, which has nothing to do with Apple.

In sum, it's strange how Apple has finally united the Mac under the Apple Silicon umbrella, with brand new porting tools for games, and a mature development environment with Metal. Meanwhile, the traditional Apple press is tearing itself apart, yelling at clouds, because they don't seem to be able to adapt to the new reality. The Mac is doing better than it ever has, and many legacy Mac users hate Apple for it.
 

exoticspice1

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I doubt Sony or Microsoft games will ever be on macOS natively and this tool is why people like Andrew want a Mac Protron. Apple is being naive if it thinks this alone is enough to court devs.
 

Cmaier

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I doubt Sony or Microsoft games will ever be on macOS natively and this tool is why people like Andrew want a Mac Protron. Apple is being naive if it thinks this alone is enough to court devs.
Well they’re not doing “this alone.”
 

throAU

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I think a lot of people are misunderstanding the purpose of this tool:

it's to give the developer a quick and dirty way to test baseline performance on the macOS platform prior to doing any significant porting work - it is NOT intended as an end-solution for a port.

However as far as "native or go home" goes - that killed linux gaming for a long time until valve put out proton. Without confirmation that a valid market exists, the risk for a developer vs. reward is difficult to calculate for a full native port.

I've seen (some) games on Linux run BETTER UNDER PROTON ON THE SAME HARDWARE than they have under native windows, so the bar isn't that high to make a game run well under WINE/Proton/etc.


If a dev can be convinced that a port is viable performance wise, I suspect the incentive is there to port "properly" - especially given that once it is on an Apple Silicon Mac, the path to an iPadOS or iOS port is much less distant than it used to be - and those markets are potentially far larger than the macOS platform.

There are already M1 and M2 based iPads out there and if the game isn't very heavily threaded the smaller iOS/ipadOS platforms could likely run it as well.

That's what I understand the purpose of this tech to be - not as a quick and dirty way to ship a retail product. It's for baseline performance eval prior to spending any significant effort.
 

quarkysg

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Apple tried to get into the console market before, and it didn't work so well:

Sega threw in the towel, but we still have Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft. A lot of competition on the market. Without a decent number of exlusive killer titles, this a a hard market to conquer.
Apple wants their 30% margin immediately upon sales. The games console business model is not compatible with Apple.
 

leman

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Apple wants their 30% margin immediately upon sales. The games console business model is not compatible with Apple.

What do you mean, not compatible? 30% commission is still pretty much standard across the console industry (Playstation, Xbox). Steam charges 30%. Epic store is the only one with low commission at 12%, but they charge payment extra processing fees for some payment methods.
 
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