Mac New Game Porting Toolkit is Wine

[quarkysg]

What do you mean, not compatible? 30% commission is still pretty much standard across the console industry (Playstation, Xbox). Steam charges 30%. Epic store is the only one with low commission at 12%, but they charge payment extra processing fees for some payment methods.

I mean hardware margins, not the 30% App Store commission. Selling hardware at a loss so as to make it back later via game sales is not something Apple is known to do.

 

[leman]

I mean hardware margins, not the 30% App Store commission. Selling hardware at a loss so as to make it back later via game sales is not something Apple is known to do.

I don't see why Apple couldn't make a $300 handheld with A15 and still keep their hardware margins. There are always ways to be profitable. But it's a tough business and requires flawless planning and execution, so I am not surprised they are not too keen to go after it.

 

[Nycturne]

I mean hardware margins, not the 30% App Store commission. Selling hardware at a loss so as to make it back later via game sales is not something Apple is known to do.

Nintendo isn't known for it either. They seem to be doing pretty well in the current environment with that approach. To be honest, I think Apple already has competitive hardware if all you want is to land a mainstream game system. They just aren't applying it in this area at the moment, expecting the Apple TV to be the foot in the door for some reason.

 

[quarkysg]

I don't see why Apple couldn't make a $300 handheld with A15 and still keep their hardware margins. There are always ways to be profitable. But it's a tough business and requires flawless planning and execution, so I am not surprised they are not too keen to go after it.

They could, but it probably couldn't keep up with the competition in terms of horse power I would imagine. I agree with you that the motivation for Apple is not there. The Apple TV is already something like that. Uptake for developers are not there tho.

Nintendo isn't known for it either. They seem to be doing pretty well in the current environment with that approach. To be honest, I think Apple already has competitive hardware if all you want is to land a mainstream game system. They just aren't applying it in this area at the moment, expecting the Apple TV to be the foot in the door for some reason.

Sure, and Apple already have the iPhones and iPads for that, and it's gaming revenue from that segment is reportedly huge. So again, I think the motivation is not there.

What I see Apple do with Metal 3 and GPTK is to encourage native games to be developed/ported for Apple's ecosystems.

IMHO, Apple will unlikely bless a solution like Proton for AS. Too much pride there.

 

[leman]

IMHO, Apple will unlikely bless a solution like Proton for AS. Too much pride there.

It's not just about pride, it's about survival. Proton is great for Valve because a) Valve wants you to buy their handhelds and b) Valve wants you to buy from their store. But the moment you officially support running Windows gaming on your system you give up all the initiative and your system just becomes a Windows emulator. Apple, unlike Valve, actually has hardware and software aspirations.

 

[Colstan]

But the moment you officially support running Windows gaming on your system you give up all the initiative and your system just becomes a Windows emulator.

It still amazes me that anyone seriously thinks that Apple should make a Proton clone for the Mac.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
- George Santayana

Apple, unlike Valve, actually has hardware and software aspirations.

Trying to beat Windows at its own game is fool's gold, a myopic short-term view, and I don't want Apple to repeat this obvious mistake. "Think different" is as relevant now as it ever was.

 

[dada_dave]

Apple has changed its licensing policy to allow the Game Porting Toolkit to be distributed with Crossover. So Apple’s DX12 to Metal engine can now be used by Crossover. @Jimmyjames

 

[Jimmyjames]

Apple has changed its licensing policy to allow the Game Porting Toolkit to be distributed with Crossover. So Apple’s DX12 to Metal engine can now be used by Crossover. @Jimmyjames

Thanks for the update!

I don’t want to be nosey, but I hope Colstan is ok. Haven’t seen them here for a while.

 

[dada_dave]

Title is a touch clickbait but summary is that Apple and Codeweavers *may* be working together to make a more proton-like experience for the Mac. Which is indeed big with the obvious caveats that we don’t know that for certain even though releasing the newest GPTK to Codeweavers first is a pretty big piece of evidence of at least closer cooperation.

 

[Jimmyjames]

Title is a touch clickbait but summary is that Apple and Codeweavers *may* be working together to make a more proton-like experience for the Mac. Which is indeed big with the obvious caveats that we don’t know that for certain even though releasing the newest GPTK to Codeweavers first is a pretty big piece of evidence of at least closer cooperation.

I really hope this isn’t true. Proton has ruined native Linux gaming and Proton is viable because Linux users are using the same hardware as Windows users. I was hoping games like RE8 et al were a sign Apple wanted to create a market spanning iPhone, iPad and Mac. If they’re so quickly abandoning their strateg, it’s a bad sign.

 

[dada_dave]

I really hope this isn’t true. Proton has ruined native Linux gaming and Proton is viable because Linux users are using the same hardware as Windows users. I was hoping games like RE8 et al were a sign Apple wanted to create a market spanning iPhone, iPad and Mac. If they’re so quickly abandoning their strateg, it’s a bad sign.

I actually don't think it's abandoning the strategy and I disagree with you and @leman overall that adopting translation layers represents some death knell for native gaming. First off, neither Apple nor Codeweavers is providing a complete solution here with each game in a Steam library packaged in a working bottle. For a number of titles users will still have to do a lot of work on their own to get a good experience unless a company pays Codeweavers to do a port.

Second, I view the first step as getting native gaming is proving there is a viable market for games. A huge number of games are Unity/Unreal where porting might not exactly be a button click but the technical side isn't the issue (there are titles like Genshin Impact already have iOS ports but not Mac). Developers and publishers need to be convinced that there is a market to release games to and that Mac users aren't simply going to buy it on their gaming PC or console anyway. That's the hurdle.

Thirdly there was another video where Tsai talks about CD Projekt Red porting their older games over to the Mac but the Witcher 2 shares in theory the same engine DNA as the Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk 2077. Basically Apple's strategy of porting using Wine/Crossover and GPTK is viable even as a commercial release if developers once a market is proven is willing to go back and provide a native version. This has happened at least one if not multiple of my games over the years which were originally sold as just crossover ports and became native ports over time. One of the few benefits of the internet age and DLC/microtransactions is that, for successful games, developers and publishers have an incentive for long term support. The case studies where relying on translation layers killed native gaming came from before this era.

Finally, for the foreseeable future a huge number of games are not going to be ported officially, natively or otherwise, having a tool for knowledgeable users to still play the games they want to play on their preferred platform is a net win for keeping those users further within that ecosystem. The fact that Apple silicon is so capable (and the translation layers are better these days) makes that experience better and more likely to keep users as Apple-first rather than also buying other systems specifically to play games. Again, this increases mindshare amongst developers for the Mac being a platform worth supporting.

 

[Jimmyjames]

I actually don't think it's abandoning the strategy and I disagree with you and @leman overall that adopting translation layers represents some death knell for native gaming. First off, neither Apple nor Codeweavers is providing a complete solution here with each game in a Steam library packaged in a working bottle. For a number of titles users will still have to do a lot of work on their own to get a good experience unless a company pays Codeweavers to do a port.

I would be surprised if they did abandon that strategy, I was just reacting to the idea presented in the video. I think whether the Proton route has a detrimental effect on native gaming depends on a few things, but it’s hard to argue it has destroyed Linux native gaming. Feral came out and stated it specifically. If what Apple/Codeweavers are presenting isn’t a complete solution, then I agree it wouldn’t replace native games, but then I also think the comparison to Proton is half-baked, as is the premise of Andrew’s video. It may be this is the easiest way to allow devs to test their games, rather than having to spend any time making non-DX12 components.

Second, I view the first step as getting native gaming is proving there is a viable market for games. A huge number of games are Unity/Unreal where porting might not exactly be a button click but the technical side isn't the issue (there are titles like Genshin Impact already have iOS ports but not Mac). Developers and publishers need to be convinced that there is a market to release games to and that Mac users aren't simply going to buy it on their gaming PC or console anyway. That's the hurdle.

Right but the important thing is a viable market for paid gaming. Allowing people to run games they already purchased on steam doesn’t add much to the argument for Mac gaming. Devs need to see money from games they make for the Mac.

Thirdly there was another video where Tsai talks about CD Projekt Red porting their older games over to the Mac but the Witcher 2 shares in theory the same engine DNA as the Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk 2077. Basically Apple's strategy of porting using Wine/Crossover and GPTK is viable even as a commercial release if developers once a market is proven is willing to go back and provide a native version. This has happened at least one if not multiple of my games over the years which were originally sold as just crossover ports and became native ports over time. One of the few benefits of the internet age and DLC/microtransactions is that, for successful games, developers and publishers have an incentive for long term support. The case studies where relying on translation layers killed native gaming came from before this era.

I’m sure wine is a help for Apple, in the sense that what they really want is gaming across all their platforms. GPTK helps with the Mac, but what they want I believe is to allow devs to go from PC/Console to Mac as a way to then get those games on iPhone/iPad.

Finally, for the foreseeable future a huge number of games are not going to be ported officially, natively or otherwise, having a tool for knowledgeable users to still play the games they want to play on their preferred platform is a net win for keeping those users further within that ecosystem. The fact that Apple silicon is so capable (and the translation layers are better these days) makes that experience better and more likely to keep users as Apple-first rather than also buying other systems specifically to play games. Again, this increases mindshare amongst developers for the Mac being a platform worth supporting.

Yes iirc one of the devs for GPTK said that they were happy if people found value in running games using it.

 

[exoticspice1]

Proton has ruined native Linux gaming and Proton is viable because Linux users are using the same hardware as Windows users

I disagree with this. Proton actually made gaming better on Linux. We now have HDR that's working and better than Windows in games on the Steam Deck OLED. HDR has long been an issue and Valve solves it using Proton and best of all these fixes can be implemented on non-steam distros.

 

[Jimmyjames]

I disagree with this. Proton actually made gaming better on Linux. We now have HDR that's working and better than Windows in games on the Steam Deck OLED. HDR has long been an issue and Valve solves it using Proton and best of all these fixes can be implemented on non-steam distros.

“Native"

 

[exoticspice1]

Native

Most games run better via proton than native, because of Proton optimisations.

Also native Linux gaming was never a thing, it was never going to be as huge as native Windows. Even Resident Evil on Mac is using a Metal shaders converter and there's nothing wrong with translations but in Apples case I do agree that x86 -> ARM64 hurts the most and loses performance something that Linux doesn't have to worry about.

 

[Jimmyjames]

Most games run better via proton than native, because of Proton optimisations.

Also native Linux gaming was never a thing, it was never going to be as huge as native Windows. Even Resident Evil on Mac is using a Metal shaders converter and there's nothing wrong with translations but in Apples case I do agree that x86 -> ARM64 hurts the most and loses performance something that Linux doesn't have to worry about.

It was a thing, a small thing, but it was growing…until Proton. It didn’t have to be as big as Windows to survive.

 

[dada_dave]

I would be surprised if they did abandon that strategy, I was just reacting to the idea presented in the video. I think whether the Proton route has a detrimental effect on native gaming depends on a few things, but it’s hard to argue it has destroyed Linux native gaming. Feral came out and stated it specifically.

Feral has a vested interest in saying so. And while it may have killed *their native porting to Linux* that's different from saying that Steam killed native Linux gaming in the long run (which as @exoticspice1 already said wasn't really a thing much anyway even in comparison to the Mac). Steam's long term goal is to grow the steam deck to a large enough user base that developing for Linux becomes a profitable endeavor. It becomes a worthwhile target to make sure your your game runs and performs well - for intensive games, native will be superior so native games will increase if developers want "Steam deck native" tags (which Steam should make a thing if it isn't one). Whether this pays off remains to be seen, but their approach has merit. Lastly, as much as I personally appreciate Feral's efforts over the years, both Valve and Apple would rather native ports (which Feral and Aspyr didn't always do!) be handled in-house which again in an era of Unity and Unreal is something most development houses could easily handle. Only the major studios with bespoke engines have difficulties with this. Obviously those represent big, high profile AAA games, but 80+% of the market isn't those and aren't native Linux/Mac and the technical side to porting isn't the issue.

If what Apple/Codeweavers are presenting isn’t a complete solution, then I agree it wouldn’t replace native games, but then I also think the comparison to Proton is half-baked, as is the premise of Andrew’s video. It may be this is the easiest way to allow devs to test their games, rather than having to spend any time making non-DX12 components.

Right but the important thing is a viable market for paid gaming. Allowing people to run games they already purchased on steam doesn’t add much to the argument for Mac gaming. Devs need to see money from games they make for the Mac.

The issues is that most of them aren't games for the Mac, that's the first thing that needs to change! They can't see revenue from a source they don't develop for. Chicken and egg. And again, to borrow @exoticspice1 's point about the overall quality of native Linux ports, if a non-native version is superior to the native port, that shows they aren't serious about the market anyway. Again, we agree that so far Apple isn't going full Proton and I think they won't unless native development stalls, but increasing the capabilities of Crossover is a net win for everyone and gives them the flexibility to change course if they need to. This about proving the viability of the market - it's worth it to develop games for the Mac people are playing their games on there and want to, make the experience better and you'll get even more users.

I’m sure wine is a help for Apple, in the sense that what they really want is gaming across all their platforms. GPTK helps with the Mac, but what they want I believe is to allow devs to go from PC/Console to Mac as a way to then get those games on iPhone/iPad.

That's not much of a concern. The Mac is going to remain an afterthought for devs relative to the iPhone/iPad for a long time. iOS is the biggest gaming market in the world. Yes it is often (though not always) a different market from AAA PC/console gaming and yes Apple is trying to change that, but that's not a detriment to either strategy - for developers access to the massive iOS/iPadOS market is an extra hook to Mac gaming regardless. The issue has often more been the opposite: the developer makes an iOS/iPadOS port but never bothers with releasing a Mac version.

Yes iirc one of the devs for GPTK said that they were happy if people found value in running games using it.

Yup.

 

[exoticspice1]

It was a thing, a small thing, but it was growing…until Proton. It didn’t have to be as big as Windows to survive.

I rather play Windows games thru Proton than touch Windows. If it offers you any consolation, Valve recently made a native port of Half Life for Linux they didn't have too but they did.


Prior to Proton I couldn't play Witcher 3 nor Batman on Linux. Does it really matter if the native Linux ports were not as great as Windows?

It's not like Proton is closed source, its an open source tool.

 

[Jimmyjames]

I rather play Windows games thru Proton than touch Windows. If it offers you any consolation, Valve recently made a native port of Half Life for Linux they didn't have too but they did.


Prior to Proton I couldn't play Witcher 3 nor Batman on Linux. Does it really matter if the native Linux ports were not as great as Windows?

It's not like Proton is closed source, its an open source tool.

I think whether it matters depends on how you view it. If you just want games, and don’t care how they arrive, then it doesn’t. If you care about a platform and its long term viability, then it does.

 

[exoticspice1]

If you just want games, and don’t care how they arrive, then it doesn’t. If you care about a platform and its long term viability, then it does.

I do care how they arrive. If Proton was closed source I would 100% be against it as that goes against Linux ethos. The Steam Deck made Linux gaming marketshare overtake macOS, it's making a dent.

Valve cares about protecting its Store from Microsoft and will do whatever it takes to do. I am glad they those an open approach. They could have a closed off console like Nintendo but it's pure Linux as the kernel and it's also a PC. At the end of the day the outcome was relieased on an open source tool.