Ukraine taking it to Russia

Huntn

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Huntn

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Here is a good story about the logistical assistance being provided by America.


Side note: the head of the operation is a 4-star general whose promotion was temporarily held up due to DoD expectations it would be blocked by Trump …. because she is a woman. It’s obvious she is highly capable, and yet another great example of why we should not elect leaders who discriminate based on sex, race, religion, or other similar factors. When we do that, we lose out on some of the best and brightest.

Anyone care to speculate on the US response to Ukraine if MoFo Donny was still in charge, it would be another Syria on behalf of the US as a gift to Kiss Kiss Vladimir, Donny’s favorite “strong man” who makes him go weak in the knees, at the thought of dominating his Suckers.
 

SuperMatt

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Anyone care to speculate on the US response to Ukraine if MoFo Donny was still in charge, it would be another Syria on behalf of the US as a gift to Kiss Kiss Vladimir, Donny’s favorite “strong man” who makes him go weak in the knees, at the thought of dominating his Suckers.
“We have it totally under control. It’s just one person coming from Russia. It’s going to be just fine."

"It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle — it will disappear."

"I’m a little upset with Russia, I’ll be honest with you."

"So, supposing we hit Russia with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said, that hasn’t been checked but you’re gonna test it. And then I said, supposing it brought the light inside Russia, which you can either do either through Belarus or some other way."

"Looks like by April, you know, in theory, when it gets a little warmer, it miraculously goes away. I hope that’s true. But we’re doing great in our country. Russia, I spoke with President Putin, and they’re working very, very hard. And I think it’s going to all work out fine."

"Now the Democrats are politicizing Ukraine. … One of my people came up to me and said, ‘Mr. President, they tried to beat you on Russia, Russia, Russia.’ That didn’t work out too well. They couldn’t do it. They tried the impeachment hoax. That was on a perfect conversation. They tried anything, they tried it over and over. … And this is their new hoax."

“LIBERATE MICHIGAN!"
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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I don't know if another news source is reporting it, but CNN thought it was a good idea to announce to the world that US intelligence helped Ukraine sink the Russian ship. Thus far it's just a technicality that the west/US hasn't officially declared war on Russia and everybody knows it, including Russia. CNN really wants us to make it official. I hope their HQ is the first to get nuked. They should report that nukes are quickly becoming Putin's only option and they endorse that decision because it just makes sense.


Meanwhile, zero reporting on Trump's regularly held Nazi rallies, or maybe they are reporting on it but it's buried under gourmet dog food recipes. CNN and Biden: never underestimate their ability to use best intentions to fuck things up.
 

SuperMatt

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I don't know if another news source is reporting it, but CNN thought it was a good idea to announce to the world that US intelligence helped Ukraine sink the Russian ship. Thus far it's just a technicality that the west/US hasn't officially declared war on Russia and everybody knows it, including Russia. CNN really wants us to make it official. I hope their HQ is the first to get nuked. They should report that nukes are quickly becoming Putin's only option and they endorse that decision because it just makes sense.


Meanwhile, zero reporting on Trump's regularly held Nazi rallies, or maybe they are reporting on it but it's buried under gourmet dog food recipes. CNN and Biden: never underestimate their ability to use best intentions to fuck things up.
You hope a nuclear bomb detonates in Atlanta?
 

Chew Toy McCoy

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You hope a nuclear bomb detonates in Atlanta?

If the warmongers push the situation to this, then it's as good a location as any. It's not like any other population of a major city is any more or less deserving and it's not like they're going to send all their missiles to DC.

The irony is they probably won't hit smaller cities or towns where a bigger percentage of the population thinks this shit is awesome. If full scale nuclear war breaks out then the best place to be will be in the blast radius. Setting aside a longer fallout related death, the only people who will be left are survivalists and the super rich, neither of whom have any interest in a more equitable society and they will need slaves.
 

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They could test the waters with a low yield (1-5 kt) tactical/battlefield nuclear weapon in Ukraine. But that could/would get out of control and ramp up to Russia first hitting ICBM sites in the central US. Along with command/control centers (WDC) and other military infrastructure. And of course we'd quickly respond.
 

AG_PhamD

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I don't know if another news source is reporting it, but CNN thought it was a good idea to announce to the world that US intelligence helped Ukraine sink the Russian ship. Thus far it's just a technicality that the west/US hasn't officially declared war on Russia and everybody knows it, including Russia. CNN really wants us to make it official. I hope their HQ is the first to get nuked. They should report that nukes are quickly becoming Putin's only option and they endorse that decision because it just makes sense.


Meanwhile, zero reporting on Trump's regularly held Nazi rallies, or maybe they are reporting on it but it's buried under gourmet dog food recipes. CNN and Biden: never underestimate their ability to use best intentions to fuck things up.

Supply arms and intelligence is nothing new. Obviously the US is providing the Ukrainians actionable intelligence. Let’s not forget that in the Vietnam War the Russians not only supplied the Veitcong, blue flew fighter jets on behalf on them. Despite that, the Vietnam War was still considered a proxy war- and I would say this Russian-Ukrainian war has become a proxy war for the West at this point. Especially when the SecDef says our goal is to weaken the Russian Army so they can’t invade another country for years to come. History demonstrates you can go quite a ways helping one side without being considered an active participant.

And let’s be honest, Russia is facing extreme challenges fighting Ukraine. They have zero interest getting into a hot war with NATO.

———
In other news, another Russian ship has reportedly spontaneously combusted :p. Just like the Moskova and a slew of factories and military-related facilities well behind Russian lines.

The Admiral Makarov is a modern, 21st century design frigate, commissioned in 2017. This is much unlike the 70’s Soviet era Moskova flagship. The Makarov is actually one of Russia’s newest, most modern shop and appears to possess at least a few systems that should be able to take down an anti-ship missile. Knocking out this ship means smaller boats no longer have protection.

If indeed a missile took this ship out, it’s quite astonishing has managed to lose another boat, particularly one of their newest, most sophisticated ships.
 

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If indeed a missile took this ship out, it’s quite astonishing has managed to lose another boat, particularly one of their newest, most sophisticated ships.

My theory... Either of two possibilities.
1) Like the Moskva, unprofessionalism of the crew (and captain) not being at battle stations 24/7 - though that's hard to fathom after the recent and easily sinking the Moskva.
2) The Ukraine military received significant assistance from another country spoofing/jamming the ship's defensive systems (or supplying valuable technical information), coordinated with the timing of the missile launch. Not so coincidentally news sources reported that British RC-135 Rivet Joint SIGINT/ELINT surveillance aircraft have been flying loops in the Black Sea.
 

Colstan

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We are now on day 75 of Putin's 3-day war. It's remarkable how much conventional wisdom has been overturned during these past few months.

The Russian bear is never as weak as she seems, nor strong as she appears. Napoleon and Hitler thought they could roll in and be done by brunch. The harsh elements, terrain, and Russian willingness to take massive casualties stopped those advances. Now we're seeing the Russians on the receiving end, while assaulting their Ukrainian cousins. The "special military operation" began right when bezdorizhzhya (Ukrainian for "mud season") started in the region, assuming that it would be over before Putin could do his victory dance through the streets of Kyiv (like Hitler enjoying the view at the Eiffel Tower) after he bravely expelled the "Nazis and drug addicts" from the Ukrainian government. Now that literal mud, which the much vaunted "40-mile Russian convoy" got stuck in, has become a metaphorical quagmire.

Russia has historically had significant trouble with conflicts involving much smaller, outmatched neighbors, which either resulted in a loss or a draw. During the Winter War in 1939, the Soviets were humiliated during their conflict with the Finns. The Russo-Japanese war ended without a decisive victory, the same with the Sino-Soviet border conflict. The Afghan invasion was a drawn out war of attrition with the Soviets ultimately retreating.

We don’t know what is ultimately going to happen in Ukraine. That history is still being written. However, it's clear that the "second most powerful military in the world" is being humiliated by their smaller, less well-equipped neighbor. It appears that Russia is long past the "culminating point", in which their ability to reliably supply their forces is exceeded by demand. Meanwhile, NATO equipment is steadily streaming its way into Ukraine, and Ukrainians are quickly learning how to use those advanced weapon systems, which easily outclass the Soviet-era junk that the Russians are now resorting to. The NATO alliance are following the Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben methodology, meaning they are training the teachers, who will then pass that knowledge to operators who will deploy that weaponry on the battlefield.

The Russian military, at least on paper, shouldn’t be having this level of difficulty, but Russian propaganda reaches far outside its borders, and Kremlin hubris knows no bounds. That being said, I think there needs to be a serious analysis of Western governments' pre-war assessments. According to reliable press reports, the U.S. government originally expected Ukraine to fall within the first 96 hours. (Which explains the offer to Zelenskyy for a one-way ticket out of Kyiv courtesy of the United States Air Force.)

Thus far, Putin has managed to unite NATO, something they couldn't do on their own. Ukraine is now a de-facto unofficial member of NATO, training to use NATO weaponry, tactics, and communication standards. Moldova is looking to join the EU and is now also receiving weaponry and military aid, and Finland and Sweden will be NATO members within months. Important Russian neighbors, including South Korea and Japan, are strongly aligned with NATO sanctions, Japan is now taking a more active stance toward self-defense, and reticent bystanders like Israel are joining in with other democratic countries to oppose Russian aggression. The Russians haven't achieved a single objective that Putin laid out, his goal of stopping NATO expansion is having the opposite effect, the Ruble is collapsing as Russia inches closer to becoming a Chinese client state, and it will take the Russian military a decade to recover to pre-war levels. On top of that, at least nine generals and dozens of senior officers have been killed in action; collective experience and knowledge that can't be replaced. Although fluid, current analysis shows that Ukraine has now seized back territory that the Russians held before the start of the war. Hence, not only are the Ukrainians holding ground, but gaining territory in Donbas. Thus far, this looks like one of the greatest geopolitical blunders in history, and it's entirely the fault of one man.

I realize that politics, unfortunately, are injected into everything these days. However, I think serious questions need to be asked about the highly inaccurate analysis done by the best and brightest minds inside the Pentagon. There are plenty of well-intentioned people from both U.S. political parties that would be well-suited to oversee such an endeavor. I understand that there are always going to be significant disagreements between the right/left divide, it's nothing new, today's Republicans and Democrats were mirrored two millennia ago by the Populares and Optimates in ancient Rome. As much as it may feel imperative in the moment, particularly with a 24/7 news cycle with internet and cable news, none of this is unique or special. Regardless, hopefully that ideological conflict can be put aside, and an independent non-partisan analysis can be done concerning the failings of the military defense establishment's ability to foresee both Russia's inherent structural weaknesses, and lack of preparedness for a sustained conflict with a bordering country, one which on paper appeared to be at a significant disadvantage. This shouldn't be about assigning blame (we all know the fault lies with Vladimir Putin) but being better prepared for future conflicts.

On a more fundamental level, I'm shocked at how quickly Russian supply lines collapsed. (Notably aided by Belarusian dissidents who sabotaged freight railways at the beginning of the war.) The pictures of old mothballed Soviet-era tires being outfitted on modern machinery and extensive reliance upon civilian vehicles painted with a "Z" to connote them as Russian friendlies are striking. The complete lack of shipping pallets for transport tell us more than any of the videos featuring exploding Russian military equipment ever will.

It's like the old joke where an American general told a Russian general that U.S. troops eat three times the calories per day compared to their Russian counterparts, and the Russian general replied, "That's impossible, no one can eat three bags of potatoes every day!".
 

SuperMatt

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We are now on day 75 of Putin's 3-day war. It's remarkable how much conventional wisdom has been overturned during these past few months.

The Russian bear is never as weak as she seems, nor strong as she appears. Napoleon and Hitler thought they could roll in and be done by brunch. The harsh elements, terrain, and Russian willingness to take massive casualties stopped those advances. Now we're seeing the Russians on the receiving end, while assaulting their Ukrainian cousins. The "special military operation" began right when bezdorizhzhya (Ukrainian for "mud season") started in the region, assuming that it would be over before Putin could do his victory dance through the streets of Kyiv (like Hitler enjoying the view at the Eiffel Tower) after he bravely expelled the "Nazis and drug addicts" from the Ukrainian government. Now that literal mud, which the much vaunted "40-mile Russian convoy" got stuck in, has become a metaphorical quagmire.

Russia has historically had significant trouble with conflicts involving much smaller, outmatched neighbors, which either resulted in a loss or a draw. During the Winter War in 1939, the Soviets were humiliated during their conflict with the Finns. The Russo-Japanese war ended without a decisive victory, the same with the Sino-Soviet border conflict. The Afghan invasion was a drawn out war of attrition with the Soviets ultimately retreating.

We don’t know what is ultimately going to happen in Ukraine. That history is still being written. However, it's clear that the "second most powerful military in the world" is being humiliated by their smaller, less well-equipped neighbor. It appears that Russia is long past the "culminating point", in which their ability to reliably supply their forces is exceeded by demand. Meanwhile, NATO equipment is steadily streaming its way into Ukraine, and Ukrainians are quickly learning how to use those advanced weapon systems, which easily outclass the Soviet-era junk that the Russians are now resorting to. The NATO alliance are following the Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben methodology, meaning they are training the teachers, who will then pass that knowledge to operators who will deploy that weaponry on the battlefield.

The Russian military, at least on paper, shouldn’t be having this level of difficulty, but Russian propaganda reaches far outside its borders, and Kremlin hubris knows no bounds. That being said, I think there needs to be a serious analysis of Western governments' pre-war assessments. According to reliable press reports, the U.S. government originally expected Ukraine to fall within the first 96 hours. (Which explains the offer to Zelenskyy for a one-way ticket out of Kyiv courtesy of the United States Air Force.)

Thus far, Putin has managed to unite NATO, something they couldn't do on their own. Ukraine is now a de-facto unofficial member of NATO, training to use NATO weaponry, tactics, and communication standards. Moldova is looking to join the EU and is now also receiving weaponry and military aid, and Finland and Sweden will be NATO members within months. Important Russian neighbors, including South Korea and Japan, are strongly aligned with NATO sanctions, Japan is now taking a more active stance toward self-defense, and reticent bystanders like Israel are joining in with other democratic countries to oppose Russian aggression. The Russians haven't achieved a single objective that Putin laid out, his goal of stopping NATO expansion is having the opposite effect, the Ruble is collapsing as Russia inches closer to becoming a Chinese client state, and it will take the Russian military a decade to recover to pre-war levels. On top of that, at least nine generals and dozens of senior officers have been killed in action; collective experience and knowledge that can't be replaced. Although fluid, current analysis shows that Ukraine has now seized back territory that the Russians held before the start of the war. Hence, not only are the Ukrainians holding ground, but gaining territory in Donbas. Thus far, this looks like one of the greatest geopolitical blunders in history, and it's entirely the fault of one man.

I realize that politics, unfortunately, are injected into everything these days. However, I think serious questions need to be asked about the highly inaccurate analysis done by the best and brightest minds inside the Pentagon. There are plenty of well-intentioned people from both U.S. political parties that would be well-suited to oversee such an endeavor. I understand that there are always going to be significant disagreements between the right/left divide, it's nothing new, today's Republicans and Democrats were mirrored two millennia ago by the Populares and Optimates in ancient Rome. As much as it may feel imperative in the moment, particularly with a 24/7 news cycle with internet and cable news, none of this is unique or special. Regardless, hopefully that ideological conflict can be put aside, and an independent non-partisan analysis can be done concerning the failings of the military defense establishment's ability to foresee both Russia's inherent structural weaknesses, and lack of preparedness for a sustained conflict with a bordering country, one which on paper appeared to be at a significant disadvantage. This shouldn't be about assigning blame (we all know the fault lies with Vladimir Putin) but being better prepared for future conflicts.

On a more fundamental level, I'm shocked at how quickly Russian supply lines collapsed. (Notably aided by Belarusian dissidents who sabotaged freight railways at the beginning of the war.) The pictures of old mothballed Soviet-era tires being outfitted on modern machinery and extensive reliance upon civilian vehicles painted with a "Z" to connote them as Russian friendlies are striking. The complete lack of shipping pallets for transport tell us more than any of the videos featuring exploding Russian military equipment ever will.

It's like the old joke where an American general told a Russian general that U.S. troops eat three times the calories per day compared to their Russian counterparts, and the Russian general replied, "That's impossible, no one can eat three bags of potatoes every day!".
What is the evidence that the Pentagon overestimated Russia’s strength? It seems to me they knew of the weaknesses but kept that info to themselves. When analysts and journalists were freaking out and predicting doom unless there was a no-fly zone, the Pentagon was executing an effective strategy. They broadcasted Russia’s moves before they happen. Supplied Ukraine with lightweight inexpensive weapons that neutralized Russian armor. Provided the best intelligence and logistical support in the world. They seemed confident that they wouldn’t need to “directly” interfere in order to stop Putin.
 

Huntn

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I don't know if another news source is reporting it, but CNN thought it was a good idea to announce to the world that US intelligence helped Ukraine sink the Russian ship. Thus far it's just a technicality that the west/US hasn't officially declared war on Russia and everybody knows it, including Russia. CNN really wants us to make it official. I hope their HQ is the first to get nuked. They should report that nukes are quickly becoming Putin's only option and they endorse that decision because it just makes sense.


Meanwhile, zero reporting on Trump's regularly held Nazi rallies, or maybe they are reporting on it but it's buried under gourmet dog food recipes. CNN and Biden: never underestimate their ability to use best intentions to fuck things up.
I am not being critical of your post, That said, we the human species, especially those armed with nuclear ICBMs are really in a tricky, undesirable position. This is our fate and we will survive, or we won’t.

  1. We can do nothing letting an asshole with nukes in his back pocket rampage over a neighboring country, murdering and destroying while doing nothing in fear of a nuclear exchange.
  2. We can restrict trade and finances to Russia and hope it does not escalate.
  3. We can provide Ukraine with arms and Intel and hope it does not escalate.
  4. We can send NATO into Western Ukraine and ease the Russian aggressors out, hoping it does not escalate into a wholesale nuclear Armageddon.
What do you choose? Right now, I choose number 2&3.

My unconfirmed impression is that NATO/the West is providing Ukraine with not only arms but a constant stream of Intel and if this causes WWIII, what other option do we have?

And part of me wants to say Fuck It, send NATO into Ukraine. We can’t live in a world ruled by ass holes with nukes. It’s our burden to bear, and maybe we would survive It. I have to ask what makes survival worthwhile? In the meantime: ;)

 

Cmaier

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I am not being critical of your post, That said, we the human species, especially those armed with nuclear ICBMs are really in a tricky, undesirable position. This is our fate and we will survive, or we won’t.

  1. We can do nothing letting an asshole with nukes in his back pocket rampage over a neighboring country, murdering and destroying while doing nothing in fear of a nuclear exchange.
  2. We can restrict trade and finances to Russia and hope it does not escalate.
  3. We can provide Ukraine with arms and Intel and hope it does not escalate.
  4. We can send NATO into Western Ukraine and ease the Russian aggressors out, hoping it does not escalate into a wholesale nuclear Armageddon.
What do you choose? Right now, I choose number 2&3.

My unconfirmed impression is that NATO/the West is providing Ukraine with not only arms but a constant stream of Intel and if this causes WWIII, what other option do we have?

And part of me wants to say Fuck It, send NATO into Ukraine. We can’t live in a world ruled by ass holes with nukes. It’s our burden to bear, and maybe we would survive It. I have to ask what makes survival worthwhile? In the meantime: ;)



Honestly, I am 99% sure (4) would be fine - if Russia’s nukes are anything like their conventional forces, they’d likely never launch succesfully anyway. And Putin knows what happens to Russia - and to him - if he tries it. That said, the costs of being wrong are really really really high, so as long as (2) and (3) are working, and they seem to be, no need to go to (4) right now.
 

Huntn

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Honestly, I am 99% sure (4) would be fine - if Russia’s nukes are anything like their conventional forces, they’d likely never launch succesfully anyway. And Putin knows what happens to Russia - and to him - if he tries it. That said, the costs of being wrong are really really really high, so as long as (2) and (3) are working, and they seem to be, no need to go to (4) right now.
Well, I admit, I’m not 99% certain. :oops: After the fact we‘ll ask was losing a couple of major cities worth it? Nukes are really a nightmare, they are the species killing wild card. But for humanity, this was the only path, if science makes it possible, we will do it. Frankly it’s kind of amazing that M.A.D. has kept us alive, but all it would take is one mistake or one madman, to blow it for humanity.

For Russia I hope that sanity prevails and Putin loses his position one way or another.
 

Cmaier

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Well, I admit, I’m not 99% certain. :oops: After the fact we‘ll ask was losing a couple of major cities worth it? Nukes are really a nightmare, they are the species killing wild card. But for humanity, this was the only path, if science makes it possible, we will do it. Frankly it’s find of amazing that M.A.D. has kept us alive, but all it would take is one mistake or one madman, to blow it for humanity.

In reality it takes more than one madman, thank god, or it would have already happened. Merely giving the order doesn’t make it so, as it turns out.

That said, as I noted, regardless of the likelihood, the repercussions are terrible, so it’s something best not risked unless absolutely necessary.
 

Huntn

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In reality it takes more than one madman, thank god, or it would have already happened. Merely giving the order doesn’t make it so, as it turns out.

That said, as I noted, regardless of the likelihood, the repercussions are terrible, so it’s something best not risked unless absolutely necessary.
Related:

I did not watch the video:
 

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I suspect Russia with their technology know that we've been helping Ukraine. While their intelligence gathering tech isn't as good as the US, it's still very good. That we (or our European partners) have air assets gathering intelligence in the area is easy to detect and surmise that information collected goes beyond our own interest.

Speaking of a worst case scenario ratcheting up to a strategic nuclear exchange... the Russians still rely on a system called Dead Hand, that goes back to Soviet Union days. It would automatically (or semiautomatically with a human in the loop) retaliate by launching all of the country's ICBMs should the country's leadership and infrastructure be wiped out in a decapitating first strike. That the system is still in use is concerning, and speaks to the leadership's paranoia about a potential (and successful) surprise first strike.

Back when the Soviet Union was around, the US had a somewhat similar semi-automatic system called ERCS (Emergency Rocket Communication System) to ensure all ICBMS could be launched if our leadership and infrastructure were taken out. That system was inactivated at the fall of the Soviet Union.
 

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Honestly, I am 99% sure (4) would be fine - if Russia’s nukes are anything like their conventional forces, they’d likely never launch succesfully anyway.
Russia has a massive, powerful, well-equipped, unstoppable army on paper. We would like to hope that the graft extends to their nuclear might as well. Still, one nuclear blast can mess up a whole afternoon.
 

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Russia has a massive, powerful, well-equipped, unstoppable army on paper. We would like to hope that the graft extends to their nuclear might as well. Still, one nuclear blast can mess up a whole afternoon.
As i said.
 
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