Which will voters remember more in 2024?

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Sure, they lost their jobs, and Trump blamed it on Mexicans or China, so they voted for him. Since Mexican isn’t a race per se, I guess it’s xenophobia. Point is, they are upset at their situation, and voted for the guy who promised to beat up on a scapegoat instead of actually proposing any realistic solutions to the problem.

The GOP obstructs all real solutions, so the country can get worse, people get angrier, and more xenophobic, thereby keeping the GOP going.

And um, I didn’t realize that there was a purity test to determine one’s level of racism. If one is OK with Trump, there are OK with racism. Period. No matter what other excuse(s) they make, they are ok with him openly spewing racist, xenophobic, misogynistic comments, stealing brown kids away from their parents, banning Muslims, etc. If somebody is OK with that, there is something wrong with them.

Trump offered scapegoats and lies and fed racists. Don't disagree there. What are the Democrats offering? Legislation that doesn't actually get passed and nobody's situation is improved. You think people are going to rush to sign up for another 4 years of nothing getting done? There are 2 sides to voting, people who excitedly show up to vote and people who can't be bothered because they don't see themselves getting anything out of it.

There are probably even people who don't care if Trump dismantles our democracy, not because they want to watch it burn, but because our sham of a democracy hasn't worked for them and why bother perpetuating a broken system that has no incentive to change or listen to the people.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

And what did Trump do to fix that? As I recall, that wasn’t even a talking point in his campaign. Look at the polls as to why people voted the way they did, I don’t believe thinking Trump would get them a new house was even a blip.

It’s crazy to blame Democrats as a whole for Trump. If you want to blame the 2 Democratic Senators who are obstructing policies that would actually help America, then I’m fine with that. They are a disgrace.

Trump didn’t need to offer people a house. All he needed to offer was a change from an establishment system that wasn’t working for them and that Clinton most likely would just be a continuation of. Let’s not forget she didn’t even campaign in some states because she was smug enough to think she had it in the bag. I’ve also seen that reason stated by many Trump voters in those states.

I'm not blaming Democrats entirely for Trump. I'm mentioning the party actions just previous to Trump, but Trump is the result of decades of a broken system where both parties have political blood on their hands.

 

[SuperMatt]

I glanced at 2020 exit polls. Throughout 2020, unemployment was high and the economy was doing poorly. But 84% of Trump voters said the economy was ”Excellent”. There is a disconnect from reality happening among his voters, fed largely by online misinformation. Let’s take Facebook offline and see if anything changes. Now THAT is an experiment I’d be much more willing to try, rather than saying all politicians are bad and the system is just broken.

 

[SuperMatt]

Trump offered scapegoats and lies and fed racists. Don't disagree there. What are the Democrats offering? Legislation that doesn't actually get passed and nobody's situation is improved. You think people are going to rush to sign up for another 4 years of nothing getting done? There are 2 sides to voting, people who excitedly show up to vote and people who can't be bothered because they don't see themselves getting anything out of it.

There are probably even people who don't care if Trump dismantles our democracy, not because they want to watch it burn, but because our sham of a democracy hasn't worked for them and why bother perpetuating a broken system that has no incentive to change or listen to the people.

The Democrats don’t even have a 1-seat majority… they just have the tiebreak vote. It’s super-easy to keep your caucus united when all you need to do is say “no” to every bill. It’s a lot harder to get every party member on board when you’re actually trying to pass legislation. Since the GOP just wants to burn it all down and install an autocrat, it makes perfect sense to block everything and let the country go to shit.

I do think the Dems blew it with Obamacare. They had a super-majority. They should have created Medicare for all, socialized medicine, single-payer, whatever you want to call it. The compromise version… who were they compromising with? Probably Obama thought fully socialized medicine would cost him a second term, but it would have made life better for America, which would have benefitted Dems MUCH more in the long run. And in the end, even the compromise bill was hated by the GOP. I think it was a massive strategic error.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

The Democrats don’t even have a 1-seat majority… they just have the tiebreak vote. It’s super-easy to keep your caucus united when all you need to do is say “no” to every bill. It’s a lot harder to get every party member on board when you’re actually trying to pass legislation. Since the GOP just wants to burn it all down and install an autocrat, it makes perfect sense to block everything and let the country go to shit.

I do think the Dems blew it with Obamacare. They had a super-majority. They should have created Medicare for all, socialized medicine, single-payer, whatever you want to call it. The compromise version… who were they compromising with? Probably Obama thought fully socialized medicine would cost him a second term, but it would have made life better for America, which would have benefitted Dems MUCH more in the long run. And in the end, even the compromise bill was hated by the GOP. I think it was a massive strategic error.

I think that's where we are at with the current bill. It started at 6 trillion....then down to 3.5...and I believe I read earlier that it's down to 1...AND that still hasn't passed. I can't imagine what's even left in a 1/6th bill that the American people are going to be thrilled about, certainly not a great vote motivator.

As far as the razor thin majority, right wing media is drilling hard that the Democrats have control of everything. A not passed (or extremely watered down) bill is still a not passed bill and I think Americans are well laser focused on politicians saying they are going to do something and they come nowhere close. For all in tense and purposes they've reduced their rallying cry to "We're not Trump/ism", again. Before Trump they could have gone with "We tried". And historically it looks like they will probably be in an even worse position in 2022...2 years before the Presidential race.

Let's assume Trump is running in 2024 and let's assume everybody who votes for Trump is a racist or racist accepting, and he wins...or comes close. What are we going to do about that exactly? You think Democrats are going to be in an even more powerful position than they are now? At best they'll be busy attempting to combat all his and his minions insanity, and not improving things for people.

 

[Yoused]

The Republiopaths are a fairly well coördinated group, who failed to "repeal Obamacare" because they are just too stupid, and the ACA was constructed in a very complex way that made it hard to just repeal. But it is easier to organize thugs to goosestep out there to bust shit up than it is to get a disparate bunch to work in concert. Hence, the Rs have a built-in advantage.

 

[User.168]

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[Herdfan]

I do think the Dems blew it with Obamacare. They had a super-majority. They should have created Medicare for all, socialized medicine, single-payer, whatever you want to call it. The compromise version… who were they compromising with? Probably Obama thought fully socialized medicine would cost him a second term, but it would have made life better for America, which would have benefitted Dems MUCH more in the long run. And in the end, even the compromise bill was hated by the GOP. I think it was a massive strategic error.

Don't forget the "compromised version" was not even the compromised version they wanted. They got stuck with it because some Democrat in MA couldn't hold onto Ted Kennedy's Senate seat, and as a result, lost their 60th vote. So the House had to pass the Senate version as it was.

As for 2024, I will say it right now: I hope Trump doesn't run. He is too divisive. But that is a long way off.

Right now the Dems need to worry about just holding on the Governor's mansions in Virginia and maybe New Jersey. Then hold on for their shellacking in the 2022 midterms.

 

[Herdfan]

I tend to agree with @Chew Toy McCoy . The average voter, racist or not, is not going to care about the "we tried" rhetoric from Democrats. They will see that nothing has been done.

Can I take this a bit further. Will it be simply because they didn't get anything done, or will it be more of a they went for it all and failed instead of doing something they could have gotten passed.

Take the current infrastructure bill. The $1.5-1.7 is on the table, and it will help some people. Will the voters look at it an think, they should have done this today and worked on the rest tomorrow?

 

[User.168]

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[SuperMatt]

Can I take this a bit further. Will it be simply because they didn't get anything done, or will it be more of a they went for it all and failed instead of doing something they could have gotten passed.

Take the current infrastructure bill. The $1.5-1.7 is on the table, and it will help some people. Will the voters look at it an think, they should have done this today and worked on the rest tomorrow?

They could have negotiated the entire thing behind closed doors to avoid the daily media attention. And… they actually did. It was just that 2 senators decided afterwards that they wanted all the attention and are dragging this out. This is a strategy that gets those 2 people some attention, but hurts the party’s chances in the next election. If these 2 malcontents had simply done all these negotiations at the beginning, people would have just seen the final deal, and even if it didn’t suit everybody, or didn’t go far enough for some, it would have made the party look good. Instead it is a daily media circus. For anybody who still believes the “MSM” is in league with the Democrats, just look at the negative coverage of this situation, and the fact that they are going on and on about it pretty much every day. This is very harmful to the Democrats, but the “MSM” is the main vehicle for the daily negative coverage of the negotiations.

I also find the “price tag” thing we see every day in the media to be annoying. When Trump cut taxes on corporations, there was no “price tag” for how much revenue would be cut.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Can I take this a bit further. Will it be simply because they didn't get anything done, or will it be more of a they went for it all and failed instead of doing something they could have gotten passed.

Take the current infrastructure bill. The $1.5-1.7 is on the table, and it will help some people. Will the voters look at it an think, they should have done this today and worked on the rest tomorrow?

“Well, I didn’t get my child tax relief, or my paid leave, or pre-k education for my youngest and I’m going to have to figure out how to pay for my eldest’s college, and it’s going to be a bit more of a mess trying to vote this year, but at least they’re patching that hole in the road. Democrats really nailed it.” said no one ever.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Interesting point. I am a big subscriber to the "don't let perfect be the enemy of good" theory. You are probably right in that they should indeed take what they can get at this point in time... get "good" done now and work on "perfect" tomorrow. It's not an ideal situation, but they need to achieve something that will convince the average voter that something is happening.

In the longer term though I don't see how the US can continue in its current state with its current political system, which allows minority rule.

Creating a completely separate infrastructure bill was designed so the second bill could be killed, period. And that’s where we are.

 

[Herdfan]

They could have negotiated the entire thing behind closed doors to avoid the daily media attention. And… they actually did. It was just that 2 senators decided afterwards that they wanted all the attention and are dragging this out. This is a strategy that gets those 2 people some attention, but hurts the party’s chances in the next election. If these 2 malcontents had simply done all these negotiations at the beginning, people would have just seen the final deal, and even if it didn’t suit everybody, or didn’t go far enough for some, it would have made the party look good. Instead it is a daily media circus. For anybody who still believes the “MSM” is in league with the Democrats, just look at the negative coverage of this situation, and the fact that they are going on and on about it pretty much every day. This is very harmful to the Democrats, but the “MSM” is the main vehicle for the daily negative coverage of the negotiations.

I also find the “price tag” thing we see every day in the media to be annoying. When Trump cut taxes on corporations, there was no “price tag” for how much revenue would be cut.

Well, Manchin did. He told Schumer over the summer what he would vote for. Schumer even signed it. So Manchin WAS up front with what he would agree to.

Manchin proposed $1.5T top-line number to Schumer this summer

Manchin also suggested beginning debate no earlier than Oct. 1.

www.politico.com

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

I also find the “price tag” thing we see every day in the media to be annoying. When Trump cut taxes on corporations, there was no “price tag” for how much revenue would be cut.

Also they are just saying the total and conveniently leaving out that it's over 10 years.

The proposed tax hikes would only partially undo Trump's tax cuts. It's like they are whining about going back to paying the same taxes they were paying 4 years ago, but it's actually still less. It's just not at the level Trump gifted them.

 

[SuperMatt]

Interesting point. I am a big subscriber to the "don't let perfect be the enemy of good" theory. You are probably right in that they should indeed take what they can get at this point in time... get "good" done now and work on "perfect" tomorrow. It's not an ideal situation, but they need to achieve something that will convince the average voter that something is happening.

In the longer term though I don't see how the US can continue in its current state with its current political system, which allows minority rule.

As the population continues to cluster in and around big cities, this will become more and more of a problem. We will have a majority in the Senate representing a shrinking minority of the people.

 

[Herdfan]

Also they are just saying the total and conveniently leaving out that it's over 10 years.

The proposed tax hikes would only partially undo Trump's tax cuts. It's like they are whining about going back to paying the same taxes they were paying 4 years ago, but it's actually still less. It's just not at the level Trump gifted them.

Yet, even with the cuts, Federal Revenue increased. Hmmmm...........

 

[SuperMatt]

Well, Manchin did. He told Schumer over the summer what he would vote for. Schumer even signed it. So Manchin WAS up front with what he would agree to.

Manchin proposed $1.5T top-line number to Schumer this summer

Manchin also suggested beginning debate no earlier than Oct. 1.

www.politico.com

Manchin’s “agreement” story is silly if you actually read it. Once again, this current problem IS his fault. He wants what’s best for him, not what’s best for America or even his political party. He can F off.

 

[SuperMatt]

Yet, even with the cuts, Federal Revenue increased. Hmmmm...........

WTF are you talking about? Did you see how much the national debt grew after those tax cuts?

 

[Herdfan]

WTF are you talking about? Did you see how much the national debt grew after those tax cuts?

Debt increased due to increased spending, not decreased revenue.

Who Really Pays Uncle Sam's Bills?

The federal government estimates that it will collect $3.863 trillion in taxes for FY 2021. Who really pays? Annual revenues by year since 1789.

www.thebalance.com