Which will voters remember more in 2024?

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Would love for the GOP to be done with them as well. Last two, Dole & McCain were disasters.

That is a big IF. If he loses, he may be done.

Question about the progressive candidates, who did you support back in the 80's, 90's and early 00's. No one back then screamed they were progressive. Obama showed shades of it, but other than that, AOC was really the first one who had national recognizance as a progressive.

IMO we didn’t need what is now labeled/demonized Progressives for the past couple decades because

1. Democrats have been moving to the right since about Clinton. Even Obama said he would be considered a moderate Republican back in the 80’s. People are just starting to wake up to that now.

2. Over the same time period things have gotten substantially worse for the middle and lower classes. Leaving things up to business hosed people and they’ve shown zero interest in reversing course. So now, unfortunately, we need to turn to government to potentially level the playing field. That’s what Progressives are for.

3. Climate change wasn’t even really a thing to most people until recently. Democrats seemed to only give slightly more of a shit about it than Republicans. Progressives embrace it 100%.

 

[SuperMatt]

You and I just see a lot of things differently on this topic. I've never even heard health insurance mentioned as an issue from black activists, maybe you have.

And sorry I didn't originally say it in long form explanation, didn't think I needed to, but my goal post was always at addressing issues specific to black people and on their behalf, not just getting caught in the net of helping ALL Americans, as the first sentence in that PDF says.

Try reading this from a 1965 Playboy interview with MLK Jr.

Haley: If a nationwide program of preferential employment for Negroes were to be adopted, how would you propose to assuage the resentment of whites who already feel that their jobs are being jeopardized by the influx of Negroes resulting from desegregation?

King: We must develop a federal program of public works, retraining, and jobs for all—so that none, white or black, will have cause to feel threatened. At the present time, thousands of jobs a week are disappearing in the wake of automation and other production efficiency techniques. Black and white, we will all be harmed unless something grand and imaginative is done. The unemployed, poverty-stricken white man must be made to realize that he is in the very same boat with the Negro. Together, they could exert massive pressure on the government to get jobs for all. Together, they could form a grand alliance. Together, they could merge all people for the good of all.

Your insistence on policies specifically for black people ignores that basic fact above. Any policy that lifts people out of poverty is what MLK wanted… and what people want from Biden.

 

[SuperMatt]

In 2020. they voted for the Joe they thought they knew because they were comfortable with him. Turns out, he took a hard left…

Hahahahahahaha…..

OMFG did you listen to ANY of Biden’s campaign speeches or debates? He is pushing for EXACTLY what he campaigned on, and can’t even get that moderate stuff done due to corporate interests lobbying Congress.

He hasn’t turned to the left. He hasn’t even gotten his moderate agenda through Congress yet.

Look at the people who are frustrated with him… it’s progressives who thought he’d actually get something done for them. Only Fox News types could possibly say Biden took a hard left turn. It’s a statement completely out of touch with reality.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

The thing about the media, they don't select the candidates, the voters do (well not actually but you get my point). So even if the media loves a candidate, the voters still have the last say. In 2020. they voted for the Joe they thought they knew because they were comfortable with him. Turns out, he took a hard left and now his approval is in the toilet and he may well cost the party control of Congress in '22.

I ask you to also look outside your worldview, and to date he has't passed anything hard left, doesn't look like he will, and the people who took him at his word for championing left causes during the campaign are a little pissed about that. Those people also track in the ratings.

Actually, for you what do you think that Biden could actually do that would improve his ratings? Just maintain the establishment status quo? Serious question, just sit there and try not to make anything better or worse for anybody?

 

[lizkat]

Would love for the GOP to be done with them as well. Last two, Dole & McCain were disasters.

That is a big IF. If he loses, he may be done.

Question about the progressive candidates, who did you support back in the 80's, 90's and early 00's. No one back then screamed they were progressive. Obama showed shades of it, but other than that, AOC was really the first one who had national recognizance as a progressive.

Yeah if McAuliffe loses the VA race, he'd better stick to think tanks or academic posts. I've admitted to bias against him though... so that opinion of mine is just fwiw, my own opinion.

On the past "progressive" candidates among Dems: If they had military experience colored by anti-war views as a result of that experience, or had pro-environment or social justice cred, were pro-union, etc. Guys iike Bob Kerrey, Mo Udall, for example, interested me because they were not from the coasts but were Dems with views that seemed right for what the USA could use on policy leadership... versus where the GOP was going in terms of aligning with big business and cutting taxes instead of advocating for investing in America at large.

It's been disappointing to see where both Dems and Republicans have gone to in terms of susceptibility to lobbying. The money in politics, man. The money... is not money spent for anything but desire for singular power.. but it's power for sale to highest bidder. It corrupts all these pols to some extent and it's coming from increasingly concentrated behemoths of industry across all sectors of the economy.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Try reading this from a 1965 Playboy interview with MLK Jr.


Your insistence on policies specifically for black people ignores that basic fact above. Any policy that lifts people out of poverty is what MLK wanted… and what people want from Biden.

Maybe we should start a new thread about this thread sub-topic. I'm pretty much spent on it. I'm not black. I don't know if you are. If not, we should probably be asking black people if they feel like they are better off now thanks to Democrats.

And currently, it looks like there's not a lot of helping anybody left in the bill which brings me back to the original point of this thread. So will voters look at that total failure, or more like you (not attacking), go through every line item and come up with excuses as to why it didn't happen, and still vote democrat.

 

[lizkat]

Try reading this from a 1965 Playboy interview with MLK Jr.


Your insistence on policies specifically for black people ignores that basic fact above. Any policy that lifts people out of poverty is what MLK wanted… and what people want from Biden.

The VERY last thing the GOP wants is for poor white people to realize they're in the same boat with poor people of color. Once that cat's out of the bag then gerrymandering to protect Republican incumbents won't work so well any more. Most districts turn purple and the swing vote expands from indies to encompass more nominal Republicans.

 

[SuperMatt]

Maybe we should start a new thread about this thread sub-topic. I'm pretty much spent on it. I'm not black. I don't know if you are. If not, we should probably be asking black people if they feel like they are better off now thanks to Democrats.

And currently, it looks like there's not a lot of helping anybody left in the bill which brings me back to the original point of this thread. So will voters look at that total failure, or more like you (not attacking), go through every line item and come up with excuses as to why it didn't happen, and still vote democrat.

The best way I think about it is to see what issues disproportionately affect minorities in America. Then look at policies meant to rectify those.

Child care is a big one. People with plenty of money can afford it. Everybody else, the childcare cost is almost one parent’s entire paycheck… at which point you question the point of both parents working. Which takes 2 workers out of the economy… the stay-at-home parent and the lost childcare job.

Healthcare disparity is another big problem, as is affordable housing. Voter suppression specifically targets black people in many states, so the John Lewis Voting Rights act should have been supported so strongly by Democrats that they would kill the filibuster for it. Sadly, Manchin doesn’t care since it doesn’t affect his state.

And of course, police reform - because the massive disparity between their treatment of black people vs white people has been laid bare. But Tim Scott sat on that bill for a year and killed it. Not sure how the guy sleeps at night, especially with the lies he told to defend his squashing of the bill he was the supposed champion of. He let Mitch use him on that one to make sure it never saw the light of day.

 

[Yoused]

… he took a hard left and now his approval is in the toilet …

It has yet to reach the depths that Individual-ONE inhabited for almost all of his term. Every President sees their approval rating decline at a similar rate in this time frame. Individual-ONE started out at net +3 (approval - disapproval) and was in net negative territory within a fortnight, reaching -20 territory around this time in '17. Biden is half as far into the negative while wading against the tide of FoxBS and a difficult Senate.

Individual-ONE managed to claw his way back from the depths of negative net approval into the lower epipelagic zone by the following spring, and there is a fair chance that Biden will break the surface (if only just) next year. But to blame his disapproval rating on "a hard left turn" is myopic. More likely it is because he has not turned hard enough left.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

The best way I think about it is to see what issues disproportionately affect minorities in America. Then look at policies meant to rectify those.

Child care is a big one. People with plenty of money can afford it. Everybody else, the childcare cost is almost one parent’s entire paycheck… at which point you question the point of both parents working. Which takes 2 workers out of the economy… the stay-at-home parent and the lost childcare job.

Healthcare disparity is another big problem, as is affordable housing. Voter suppression specifically targets black people in many states, so the John Lewis Voting Rights act should have been supported so strongly by Democrats that they would kill the filibuster for it. Sadly, Manchin doesn’t care since it doesn’t affect his state.

And of course, police reform - because the massive disparity between their treatment of black people vs white people has been laid bare. But Tim Scott sat on that bill for a year and killed it. Not sure how the guy sleeps at night, especially with the lies he told to defend his squashing of the bill he was the supposed champion of. He let Mitch use him on that one to make sure it never saw the light of day.

I agree with the rising tide raises all ships premise which is why I think this ever shrinking bill is so important. It will benefit all Americans, including those with unrelated social justice issues and Republican or undecided voters. It would be a future vote win. I also think Trumpism is the greatest current threat to the US and if it wins then a lot of these social justice issues will be a lost cause. That’s why I think everybody should put their separate issues on pause and unite to cut the head off the snake. The alternative to that seems like it’s trying to papercut the snake to death.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Currently gone from the bill

-Paid family leave

-Medicare negotiations on drug prices

-Lower drug prices

-Expanding Medicare to include dental and vision

-Free community college

-Increase in top corporate tax rate

-Increase in top marginal tax rate

I hope they keep the funds to mail us all suckers because that's what we all are.

 

[ronntaylor]

The best way I think about it is to see what issues disproportionately affect minorities in America. Then look at policies meant to rectify those.

Anything that doesn't target white, working class men will have whiners en masse. Anything that specifically targets Black people will cause a holy war. That's one of the tactics used during the ACA fight: it's Obamacare AKA for Black people. The fact that the majority of people benefitting from the program are white is besides the point if a single Black person is helped. Then it's "government handouts" or "socialism" that has to be stopped immediately. Some of these same folks later railed about killing "Obamacare" and "they better not touch the Affordable Care Act!" And of course, there were several people that benefited from the ACA that later acknowledge that assistance.

first sentence edited for clarity

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Check out this corporatist hack at CNN

This Democrat thinks Joe Biden fundamentally misunderstood his mandate

There's been a lot of grumbling and finger-pointing among Democrats in the wake of the loss of the Virginia governor's race and a razor-thin win in New Jersey's gubernatorial contest.

flip.it

Why don’t you go ahead and list all the specific things in the bill that Americans don’t want. You won’t because they poll popular and you’d expose yourself as the corporate shill that you are.

 

[Herdfan]

Check out this corporatist hack at CNN

This Democrat thinks Joe Biden fundamentally misunderstood his mandate

There's been a lot of grumbling and finger-pointing among Democrats in the wake of the loss of the Virginia governor's race and a razor-thin win in New Jersey's gubernatorial contest.

flip.it

Why don’t you go ahead and list all the specific things in the bill that Americans don’t want. You won’t because they poll popular and you’d expose yourself as the corporate shill that you are.

I really expected it to be Manchin from the headline and your first sentence. So at least he isn't the only Dem who sees problems with what is going on.

 

[GermanSuplex]

Americans have a short-term memory. The people who helped elect Biden due to being sick of Fatty Dumb-Dumb are already voting to put enablers in place. Sort of defeats the purpose.

Who knows what 2024 will look like.

 

[ronntaylor]

Check out this corporatist hack at CNN

This Democrat thinks Joe Biden fundamentally misunderstood his mandate

There's been a lot of grumbling and finger-pointing among Democrats in the wake of the loss of the Virginia governor's race and a razor-thin win in New Jersey's gubernatorial contest.

flip.it

Why don’t you go ahead and list all the specific things in the bill that Americans don’t want. You won’t because they poll popular and you’d expose yourself as the corporate shill that you are.

She'll probably lose her seat, so desperation is in the air. In fact, wouldn't surprise me if she drops out once new districts lines are finalized. She'll use the excuse that redistricting made it too difficult to run a competitive race and probably some BS about the bitter fight between the two parties. Her current district barely went for Biden last year.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

I really expected it to be Manchin from the headline and your first sentence. So at least he isn't the only Dem who sees problems with what is going on.

Its heavy-handed establishment propaganda and about as informed and journalistically sound as saying everybody who supports Trump and his minions are white supremacists.

Ever notice that CNN doesn’t have a public comments section on their articles? That’s because many would be less than supportive and in agreement with their reporting.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Spot on. Democrats are doing the exact same thing they did under Obama, caving to corporate interests, and it will have the same affect on voters now that it did back then. Except now they have a consecutive track record of what they say they are going to do and then not doing it. Enjoy the midterm slaughter.

 

[lizkat]

Spot on. Democrats are doing the exact same thing they did under Obama, caving to corporate interests, and it will have the same affect on voters now that it did back then. Except now they have a consecutive track record of what they say they are going to do and then not doing it. Enjoy the midterm slaughter.

Starting to think we should have traded Manchin and Sinema across the aisle (for Murkowski and one of several other Rs whom the far right of the GOP think of as a RINO anyway), how much worse off could be we in the Senate? And then just gone on to drum the dynamic Ohio-Arizona duo out of the party, ditch the damn filibuster and pass a fat package so we could have spent the rest of Biden's first hundred days getting Breyer to retire and confirming a SCOTUS pick.

What good is power if not using it after the win? We frittered it away on beating back Republican propaganda about what the Dems stand for and what's in our proposals, instead of just implementing a set of policies for once because we could.

Now I don't even want Breyer to retire. What a dice roll that is though.

Well I'm gonna chalk this post up to impending low light depression. Supposed to be sunny now for a week thanks god.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Biden Social Spending Bill Whittled Down To $10 Billion Check To Joe Manchin

WASHINGTON—At last striking a compromise that unites all 50 Democrats in the Senate, the White House announced Wednesday that it had enough votes to pass a streamlined version of President Joe Biden’s social spending bill that had been stripped of every provision except for a $10 billion check...

flip.it