Which will voters remember more in 2024?

[Chew Toy McCoy]

You are the one who put responsibility on “The Squad” for the problem. You put it out there....

I’m responding and saying it’s not their problem - they are doing what they said. It’s people like Sinema who said one thing to get elected, and are now doing the opposite that are the problem.

I didn't put it on The Squad. Herdfan did and I was responding to him on that.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

What is the solution? Besides letting everything fail and still getting blamed, the Dems really have no options. It's voters that has gotten us in this mess. After Mango was elected, they came out and smacked him upside the head in the 2018 midterms. And kicked his ass out last year, giving Biden-Harris minimal control of the Senate after close wins against flawed GOP incumbents. Too many races were won by the GOP that could have gone to the Democratic side? Too many Dem voters pay too little attention to off year and midterm elections. They shouldn't need Mango (or Bernie) to be on the ballot to be motivated. They want shit, they have to fight for shit.

The solution is people on the left need to be hitting the streets, and not just over pet issues like immigrant family members and transgender rights. Their representatives should fear them just as much as Republican politicians fear theirs. Look at all the insane shit they've gotten their representatives to go along with.

And if we're just talking Manchin and Sinema, their constituants should be hitting them twice as hard. There should be BLM level protests and riots in their states.

Deploy the psychological warfare balloons!

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Well this doesn't bode well

Do GOP voters actually believe Trump's Big Lie about "rigged" elections? They don't act like they do | Salon.com

"A full 92 percent of self-identified Republican voters said that they planned to vote in the 2022 elections, with just 4 percent saying they did not plan to," explains Meredith McGraw at Politico. "By contrast, just 70 percent of self-identified Democrats said they planned to vote, and 29 percent said they did not plan to."

 

[ronntaylor]

The solution is people on the left need to be hitting the streets, and not just over pet issues like immigrant family members and transgender rights.

Putting it that way belittles immigrants and Queer folk and their families/supporters. It's not just immigration and transgender rights when you're being denied basic human rights. This false narrative of identity politics whiners vs white working men does no one any favors. What about the Black working class? The so-called essential workers? Women that are short-shifted on pay? Those barely getting by on the minimum wage? Blacks and Latinos are overrepresented amongst those groups so suffer the most. To not focus on that when they suffer the most and need the most relief, equity is foolish and one of the reasons why we are in the predicament we are in now.

 

[SuperMatt]

Putting it that way belittles immigrants and Queer folk and their families/supporters. It's not just immigration and transgender rights when you're being denied basic human rights. This false narrative of identity politics whiners vs white working men does no one any favors. What about the Black working class? The so-called essential workers? Women that are short-shifted on pay? Those barely getting by on the minimum wage? Blacks and Latinos are overrepresented amongst those groups so suffer the most. To not focus on that when they suffer the most and need the most relief, equity is foolish and one of the reasons why we are in the predicament we are in now.

And I seem to recall some folks saying that hitting the streets for BLM was hurting the party because some people that hit the streets mentioned “defund the police.”

Hit the streets, you’re hurting the party. Don’t hit the streets, you’re hurting the Party. Hit the streets with one person using a slogan that might slightly offend right-wingers, and you’re hurting the party. Let’s face it, the right-wingers aren’t going to be convinced by an evil liberal or even streets full of them. They are all in on Trump and his politics of division and hate.

 

[ronntaylor]

And I seem to recall some folks saying that hitting the streets for BLM was hurting the party because some people that hit the streets mentioned “defund the police.”

Hit the streets, you’re hurting the party. Don’t hit the streets, you’re hurting the Party. Hit the streets with one person using a slogan that might slightly offend right-wingers, and you’re hurting the party. Let’s face it, the right-wingers aren’t going to be convinced by an evil liberal or even streets full of them. They are all in on Trump and his politics of division and hate.

Exactly!! No matter what slogan the left comes up with, it's a problem. There were calls to reform policing for decades. It gotten little attention. As soon as Defund! was yelled it's been talked about, but more importantly, it's been implemented and is being studied for larger cities. At the very least it's gotten people to consider it and to look at the deformed policing we currently have.

Not happy with Biden's framework for the $1.7/$1.85T bill, but it's something and we are stuck with it for the next few months while we fight for the majority in both houses next year. We have to get out voters next week for off-year elections. And then focus on the 2022 midterms. Getting rid of Sinema and Manchin is pointless right now as they're not on next year's ballot and it means nothing if we lose either chamber bickering amongst ourselves about 2024 races.

 

[User.45]

Too many stupid voters of all stripes. "Voting against their best interests" is used to describe GOP/Rethugican voters. But it often applies to Dem voters, especially newer and first time voters. They either vote for extremists or they vote and disappear. That partially explains the Tea Party bloodbath for Obama's first midterms. I keep repeating my friend Bernie's adage for 2008-2010: Democrats voted, won and went home. Republicans voted, lost and went to work. Obama was too much of a lightweight that worried too much about his legacy. And I think he also worried too much about "not doing stupid shit." He should have attacked McConnell and the GOP when they showed him who they were. He played too nice. Dems generally play fair and hope for reciprocity.

It's way too late to bring a butter knife to a gun fight. They need to respond in kind to McConnell, McCarthy and Mango. It's war and they're playing too fucking nice.

Should they survive next week (looks like Murphy will win in New Jersey, and I think Youngkin's running from Mango will hurt him with early voting looking good for Dems even though the GOP is trying their best to get Republicans to early vote despite their "Steal the Vote" rhetoric) and then next year's midterms, they should clean house. That includes the insane, unrealistic "progressives" and blue-dog dummies that may as well join the GOP. Some of the current Dem leadership needs to also step aside even if they are in the majority come January 2023.

Your assumption is that the Dems and GOP have same rules applying to them. In reality, GOP voters vote party, literally no matter what happens. Dems actually punish their representatives based on their performance. So you have one side with a gig fine tuned so their performance has no consequence, thus literally no action can backfire (if the gov'ment performs poorly, they can say "told you so" and if it performs well, they can take credit). Dems on the other hand have real stakes in their actions, including if they open a full-on war with their political rivals there's always a risk that it backfires.

Just look at Trump. Anytime he's called a "conservative" I get some chuckles.

 

[User.45]

Also, the Dems have a very good ally. Donald J Trump. Trump will fuck up the GOPs midterms because he lacks self-discipline and will prioritize his own perception of grandiosity over logical political calculations. The only thing that could prevent Trump from sabotaging the midterms if there is the harbinger of persecution where his self-preservation protocols will override his ego.

 

[SuperMatt]

Also, the Dems have a very good ally. Donald J Trump. Trump will fuck up the GOPs midterms because he lacks self-discipline and will prioritize his own perception of grandiosity over logical political calculations. The only thing that could prevent Trump from sabotaging the midterms if there is the harbinger of persecution where his self-preservation protocols will override his ego.

Living in DC, most Terry McAuliffe ads on TV are those linking Youngkin to Trump. People cannot stand Trump in northern Virginia, and these insane mobs (astroturf, not real grassroots BTW) attacking school boards in Loudoun county are turning more and more people against the GOP as well. The more they show their true colors, the more they turn people off. It’s the white power cult of Trump now, and people don’t want any part of it.

 

[User.45]

Living in DC, most Terry McAuliffe ads on TV are those linking Youngkin to Trump. People cannot stand Trump in northern Virginia, and these insane mobs (astroturf, not real grassroots BTW) attacking school boards in Loudoun county are turning more and more people against the GOP as well. The more they show their true colors, the more they turn people off. It’s the white power cult of Trump now, and people don’t want any part of it.

Yup. Just look at the Senate run-offs in Georgia. All Trump had to do is show up but slow enthusiasm and they lost an unlosable battle. That was something really powerful.

 

[ronntaylor]

Your assumption is that the Dems and GOP have same rules applying to them. In reality, GOP voters vote party, literally no matter what happens. Dems actually punish their representatives based on their performance. So you have one side with a gig fine tuned so their performance has no consequence, thus literally no action can backfire (if the gov'ment performs poorly, they can say "told you so" and if it performs well, they can take credit). Dems on the other hand have real stakes in their actions, including if they open a full-on war with their political rivals there's always a risk that it backfires.

Just look at Trump. Anytime he's called a "conservative" I get some chuckles.

I think Dem voters are repeat voters for Dem candidates. That's why the GOP goes out of its way to deny the right to vote and make it extremely difficult to vote. They know that Black voters, especially Black women will vote for Dems. Often if it even means voting for Dems that don't prioritize them. The last presidential election is was thought that Biden was chosen because they felt white voters would not abide with another non "traditional" Dem candidate.

I do agree that the more Mango flaps his gums, the better the Dems do. Although I'm not sure that will be the case in Virginia. It's scarily close and I think that 's because Youngkin is distancing himself from the loudmouth. I think the Mccauluffe needed to hammer hard on the association. The Dems also suffer too often from an enthusiasm gap. Which is ridiculous when it comes to what happens when they stay home or vote third party to "punish" Dem polls. That is what I meant about voting against your best interests on the Dem/left/progressive side.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Putting it that way belittles immigrants and Queer folk and their families/supporters. It's not just immigration and transgender rights when you're being denied basic human rights. This false narrative of identity politics whiners vs white working men does no one any favors. What about the Black working class? The so-called essential workers? Women that are short-shifted on pay? Those barely getting by on the minimum wage? Blacks and Latinos are overrepresented amongst those groups so suffer the most. To not focus on that when they suffer the most and need the most relief, equity is foolish and one of the reasons why we are in the predicament we are in now.

Now is not the time to fragment into different separate issues. Or go ahead and watch the other side collectively take over and smash all those things once they have control. That’s a major problem with the left. They are almost incapable of uniting over a single greater cause.

 

[User.45]

Now is not the time to fragment into different separate issues. Or go ahead and watch the other side collectively take over and smash all those things once they have control. That’s a major problem with the left. They are almost incapable of uniting over a single greater cause.

The issue with US politics is that these two parties are actually just opposing coalitions of 5-6 more or less coherent parties. Once you put them together, unity kills coherence and then people get high on the outrage porn of inconsistent messaging or values. This is an inherent issue that will always disproportionately impact the party with the more analytical voters.

 

[SuperMatt]

Now is not the time to fragment into different separate issues. Or go ahead and watch the other side collectively take over and smash all those things once they have control. That’s a major problem with the left. They are almost incapable of uniting over a single greater cause.

You’re just going in circles now. As pointed out before, the Democrats are trying to improve society and get things done. There will be disagreements along the way, and different people pushing different ideas. Meanwhile, the right-wing is united: in hate and fear and scapegoating. I know I’m not supposed to invoke 1930s Germany, but such hateful strategies do succeed in the short term, with long-term disastrous effects. Jan 6 is just the beginning of the violence we will see.

Look at Brexit… people with a large variety of grievances all united on one thing because they were given that opportunity - blame Europe!!!! And look at the economic disaster already happening there. Another great example of why we need more political parties.

 

[User.45]

Look at Brexit… people with a large variety of grievances all united on one thing because they were given that opportunity - blame Europe!!!! And look at the economic disaster already happening there. Another great example of why we need more political parties.

If there were more parties, people would also be forced to think a little more about their decisions. Like what @ronntaylor was saying about sitting it out. We could just vote for someone else. I would likely not identify as Dem if the alternatives weren't political passivity or the GOP.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

You’re just going in circles now. As pointed out before, the Democrats are trying to improve society and get things done. There will be disagreements along the way, and different people pushing different ideas. Meanwhile, the right-wing is united: in hate and fear and scapegoating. I know I’m not supposed to invoke 1930s Germany, but such hateful strategies do succeed in the short term, with long-term disastrous effects. Jan 6 is just the beginning of the violence we will see.

Look at Brexit… people with a large variety of grievances all united on one thing because they were given that opportunity - blame Europe!!!! And look at the economic disaster already happening there. Another great example of why we need more political parties.

I'm not going in circles. Everybody should unite for this total bill, not go have a protest march just for transgenders rights, and another completely unrelated protest for police reform, and another completely unrelated protest for immigration reform, and another completely unrelated protest over income and wealth inequality, and another completely unrelated protest for voting rights, and another completely unrelated protest over gun violence and another completely unrelated pro-choice protest, and another completely unrelated protest over climate change, and another...... Unite and pull all your energy together and hit the streets for it all. Don't split into 50 different fragments for the opposition to target, demonize, and distract from the bigger picture.

 

[SuperMatt]

I'm not going in circles. Everybody should unite for this total bill, not go have a protest march just for transgenders rights, and another completely unrelated protest for police reform, and another completely unrelated protest for immigration reform, and another completely unrelated protest over income and wealth inequality, and another completely unrelated protest for voting rights, and another completely unrelated protest over gun violence and another completely unrelated pro-choice protest, and another completely unrelated protest over climate change, and another...... Unite and pull all your energy together and hit the streets for it all. Don't split into 50 different fragments for the opposition to target, demonize, and distract from the bigger picture.

So you want a monolithic tribal party? We’ve already got one of those in the GOP. We don’t need another cult.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

So you want a monolithic tribal party? We’ve already got one of those in the GOP. We don’t need another cult.

You tell me what you think a winning strategy is. I don't think whining about 2 democrat obstructionists is.

 

[ronntaylor]

Now is not the time to fragment into different separate issues.

Black people and other constituent groups will be waiting forever if they don't advocate and fight for their rights. Now! MLK talked about this in the 50s and 60s. 50s and fucking 60s. When you're targeted and suffer the most, you don't have the luxury of "uniting" with supposed allies that don't fight for your best interests on a regular basis. We can can chew and walk at the same time. There just has to be the will and enthusiasm from supposed allies.

The Dems lost so much recently because the Black vote is targeted and stymied. Fighting for Black people is fighting for the Democrats. Same with the Trans community. They keep being told to be quiet and wait. They've been waiting forever and now have members of the LGBT community that don't give a shit now that marriage equality is accomplished. Too many have moved on and don't care now that they think their rights are taken care of. This "Well, I got mine!" mentality is the bigger issue for the left. Not so-called fragmentation. The Dems are made up of different groups with different goals and needs. Nothing wrong for getting what's necessary. IIRC, for at least a couple of weeks all jobs lost early during the Pandemic was among women. You can't tell them to be quiet and unite. You need policies and programs to address this disparity. Many of the jobs not being filled are because women are expected to be caregivers and because so many of the shit, low-paid work in this country are considered "women's work." And because women are burdened with unfair pair and promotions, and are targeted for harassment. They had a little march the day after Mango's inauguration to highlight their needs and wants. That got the Dems the house majority. That got the Dems the two runoff elections in Georgia. Not waiting in the back of the bus.

 

[ronntaylor]

You tell me what you think a winning strategy is. I don't think whining about 2 democrat obstructionists is.

Take care of your most loyal voters.

For the Dems, that would be Black voters, especially Black women. Even with outright voter suppression targeting them they came out and helped Dems win back the House. They helped put Osoff and Warnock in the Senate. And before that, they got Joe the Dem nod. They shouldn't stay silent when the most pressing issues they face is not fought for because "Oh well!" At a certain point they'll rightly stay home because what is the point? Doug Jones squeaked into the Alabama seat for a couple years. What did he do to show his appreciation for nearly all Black women voting for him? I'm not talking about his work decades ago. I'm from the school of What's Happening Now! Black voters came out and pushed Biden over the threshold to secure the Democratic nomination. They didn't want to hear any nonsense of maybe I'll choose a Black woman as VP. They rightly deserved to be represented on the ticket after decades of loyalty. Those expectations of being rewarded for loyalty and fighting for Dems has to continue.