FBI executed search warrant at Mar-a-Lago

[bwinter88]

If I am unaware that I am 15 mph over the speed limit, does that get me off?

Yes. It would almost certainly affect the severity of your sentence if you were unaware you entered a school zone vs. if you were drag racing.

Intent is a well-established pillar of our justice system, next to harm.

Leaving documents in a locked closet from the normal course of duties will have a markedly different outcome than stealing top secret documents for no clear purpose other than for personal enrichment. I hope Trump supporters are prepared for that reality.

 

[SuperMatt]

Read the Presidential Records Act. Then realize those trolling with “Biden is just like Trump” didn’t read it.

Here’s a brief summary:

As is with any law, there are penalties in place for violating the President Records Act. The law stipulates that anyone found to have “willfully and unlawfully” concealed, removed, mutilated, obliterated or destroyed any record faces a fine and imprisonment for up to three years. A person convicted of this offence can be disqualified from holding future federal office.

The Presidential Records Act also states that anyone who “willfully injures or commits any depredation against any property” of the US faces a fine or up to one year in prison if convicted.

Until now, no president of the United States has been punished or penalised, but there have been a few cases involving former presidential aides.

According to NPR, Sandy Berger, who had served as the national security adviser to President Bill Clinton, was accused of smuggling classified documents out of the National Archives in his pants. He was ultimately fined $50,000.

Look at the details of both cases and come to your own conclusion.

 

[Herdfan]

I get that most of you ignore things when I say them. How about when CNN says them? This is from CNN This Morning:

JOHN MILLER: We’re talking about political street fighting here that is going to go on, with control of the House now, at a fairly high pitch. And, you know, if you take the purely legalistic side of it and you get into the optics and the politics, what happened here is going to make it almost impossible to charge Donald Trump with any violation of classified documents.

HARLOW: Really?

DON LEMON: I said that last night, it puts Merrick Garland in a very odd position. Did they know this was coming? This was November? I said, well, you know, look, I’m just asking here. Maybe Merrick Garland didn’t. Everyone’s wondering why he didn’t act, did he know this was coming?

JOHN MILLER: The White House knows how to get news out fast and they know how to get news out slow. The idea that we went through the contretemps of last week and once that was all clear, you know, they announced this probably, you know, speaks for itself in terms of analysis.

KAITLAN COLLINS: I’m so interested that you said it helps Trump because I was talking to people close to his legal team yesterday and they were saying this is a huge gift to them because they believe, you know, politically speaking, of course, the obstruction is obviously the big part of the Trump story. He resisted for so long, turning them over. But they believe it helps make their argument that it’s pretty easy actually, to innocently and mistakenly perhaps take classified documents. Does that actually hold up in court?

JOHN MILLER: So it doesn’t hold up in logic.

KAITLAN COLLINS: But does it hold up in court?

JOHN MILLER: Let alone court. Sure, it holds up in court as an argument. But, you know, the law is clear on on both. It’s just, you know, the balancing act of you’ve got a special prosecutor, you know, Jack Smith, who’s going to is going to make a recommendation, and then the attorney general is going to have to make a decision. And these developments have put him in a very awkward place in terms of the decision-making.

FYI, John Miller is CNN's Legal Analyst.

How many of you are nervous that Biden doing this will hurt the case against Trump?

 

[Renzatic]

FYI, John Miller is CNN's Legal Analyst.

How many of you are nervous that Biden doing this will hurt the case against Trump?

Would you say a mere idiot is worse than a malicious idiot that did considerably more?

 

[Herdfan]

Would you say a mere idiot is worse than a malicious idiot that did considerably more?

In the eyes of the law, it doesn't matter. Trump should be charged 1 count for every document and so should Biden. In that scenario Biden faces less punishment based on the number of documents. But they both get charged.

 

[Citysnaps]

In the eyes of the law, it doesn't matter. Trump should be charged 1 count for every document and so should Biden. In that scenario Biden faces less punishment based on the number of documents. But they both get charged.

But doesn't intent enter into the decision?

 

[Renzatic]

In the eyes of the law, it doesn't matter. Trump should be charged 1 count for every document and so should Biden. In that scenario Biden faces less punishment based on the number of documents. But they both get charged.

I don't disagree with this.

 

[Pumbaa]

FYI, John Miller is CNN's Legal Analyst.

“Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst” is what I can find.

How many of you are nervous that Biden doing this will hurt the case against Trump?

Would be ridiculous. Rule of law should be rule of law. I know, I know, a really alien concept.

 

[GermanSuplex]

In the eyes of the law, it doesn't matter. Trump should be charged 1 count for every document and so should Biden. In that scenario Biden faces less punishment based on the number of documents. But they both get charged.

That's not how this works, not even among street criminals.
Fine, lets grant you that Biden and Trump should both be locked up, one count per document. How much more time and how much more severe should the penalty be for obstructing and lying?

Here's a prime example:

Longtime Trump CFO Weisselberg gets 5 months in jail in tax fraud case

Allen Weisselberg, a longtime executive for Donald Trump who served as the star prosecution witness in the criminal trial of the former president's real estate company, was sentenced on Tuesday to five months behind bars for helping engineer a 15-year tax fraud scheme at the Trump Organization.

www.reuters.com

Five months. Embezzle 10k from your job and see how much longer you get. Rig your taxes and see if you can weasel out with five months and a backpayment.

 

[SuperMatt]

In the eyes of the law, it doesn't matter.

Wrong.

 

[Herdfan]

That's not how this works, not even among street criminals.
Fine, lets grant you that Biden and Trump should both be locked up, one count per document. How much more time and how much more severe should the penalty be for obstructing and lying?

Here's a prime example:

Longtime Trump CFO Weisselberg gets 5 months in jail in tax fraud case

Allen Weisselberg, a longtime executive for Donald Trump who served as the star prosecution witness in the criminal trial of the former president's real estate company, was sentenced on Tuesday to five months behind bars for helping engineer a 15-year tax fraud scheme at the Trump Organization.

www.reuters.com

Five months. Embezzle 10k from your job and see how much longer you get. Rig your taxes and see if you can weasel out with five months and a backpayment.

I think my point is being missed here.

I am not trying to compare how much time Biden gets compared to Trump. I don't see either of them spending a day in prison. At least not for this.

I am simply saying that no charges will be brought against Trump for this because they would have to be brought against Biden and that isn't going to happen.

 

[Macky-Mac]

If I am unaware that I am 15 mph over the speed limit, does that get me off?

it actually happened to me, the cops gave me a warning.......but maybe your attitude would just piss them off

 

[SuperMatt]

I think my point is being missed here.

I am not trying to compare how much time Biden gets compared to Trump. I don't see either of them spending a day in prison. At least not for this.

I am simply saying that no charges will be brought against Trump for this because they would have to be brought against Biden and that isn't going to happen.

The details matter. Especially when it comes to the law.

Do you like hypotheticals? Come on, I know you do, so here’s a familiar character:

Imagine you are changing a window air conditioner unit in a high rise apartment. It slips from your hands and falls to the ground. At that exact moment, Susie Soccer Mom is walking her dog below and it lands on her head, killing her. It‘s an unfortunate accident.

If, on the other hand, you are Larry Lacrosse Dad and you hate Susie, and know she always walks her dog there, and drop the air conditioner on her purposefully… you’ve committed first degree murder.

Intent is critical when it comes to the law, and I posted above quotes from the Presidential Records Law that indicate it is no different than other laws in that respect.

 

[Citysnaps]

A little more information:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/10/politics/biden-classified-documents-iran-ukraine-united-kingdom-beau-funeral/index.html

 

[bwinter88]

I think my point is being missed here.

I am not trying to compare how much time Biden gets compared to Trump. I don't see either of them spending a day in prison. At least not for this.

I am simply saying that no charges will be brought against Trump for this because they would have to be brought against Biden and that isn't going to happen.

You're making a simplistic declaration based on a wildly reductive conclusion that doesn't take into account the law at all. Also, stop watching cable news. It is entertainment, not information. CNN's legal analyst is wrong.

18 U.S.C. § 793, the code cited in the Mar-a-Lago search warrant, refers specifically to secrets related to national defense that must be "closely held," which is a phrase used in jury instructions in cases with precedent, it does not simply refer to classified documents. That's one way Trump's situation may differ from this, in that Trump's stolen documents relate to national security and contain "closely held secrets" in a way that these Biden documents might not. And I'm not holding my breath that a few documents in a Biden office closet come anywhere close to, what was it? Our country's most guarded nuclear secrets?

Furthermore, under 18 U.S.C. 793:

for the purpose of obtaining information respecting the national defense with intent or reason to believe that the information is to be used to the injury of the United States

You can read the full statute here and you'll note that the word willful appears a lot. That's because to be charged under this law requires intent, so your "well Biden so therefore Trump" argument falls dead flat if it can be shown that Biden had no willful intent to hoard the document.

Now, this is completely separate from the pressures and complications of public perception that will inevitably plague the DOJ now, but you keep insisting that it's the law that's complicating things, when actually the law makes quite clear how these two situations should be handled differently.

 

[Renzatic]

I am simply saying that no charges will be brought against Trump for this because they would have to be brought against Biden and that isn't going to happen.

I think the major differentiator between the two cases will be intent and reaction. Trump knowingly took classified documents with him, and fought every attempt to retrieve them. Biden stuffed some classified information in an envelope about 6 years ago, forgot about it, then, when found again, his team immediately turned them over.

Both cases are examples of mishandling of classified information, and Biden should fake consequences for what he's done here. But only one case looks to have an criminal intent behind it, and why he's far more likely to face a jury later.

If Biden doesn't receive equal punishment over this, the Republicans will call it bias, and they will talk about it nonstop on the campaign trail. That's politics. It's a given. Now, will the average voter care? I believe that will primarily depend on how our two respective people of interest respond to their various accusations.

...plus, Trump has a few more future indictments potentially waiting in the wings, which will not work in his or the Republican's favor here.

 

[Macky-Mac]

I think my point is being missed here.

I am not trying to compare how much time Biden gets compared to Trump. I don't see either of them spending a day in prison. At least not for this.

I am simply saying that no charges will be brought against Trump for this because they would have to be brought against Biden and that isn't going to happen.

I think you're mistaken.... it's illegal to lie to the FBI. Obstruction of justice is in itself illegal even if you haven't done anything else that's illegal. It's not just an "add on". People went to jail for lying during the Russia investigation, and lying was all they'd done.

I don't think charges would be brought against either Trump or Biden for having these documents. But not because of the political reason you claim.

It'd be very hard to prosecute. Both were in situations where they'd each have potentially believable responses that a jury would accept. You and I might have to pack up our own office, but these guys have staff that would be doing the packing. "I assumed they'd have checked with archives about anything questionable.....yada yada yada". It wouldn't even matter if they did actually know they were taking questionable material......you'd have to prove they knew and intentionally took the documents despite knowing.

Trump has complicated his own situation, but even so, he's had decades of having his lawyers coach him on "how not to break the law", as Giuliani phrased it.

 

[Chew Toy McCoy]

At the very least this should trigger a new law/rule that every single document an outgoing administration attempts to leave with needs to first be reviewed. If it's officially declassified then it's not an issue. If it's something you don't think somebody should even be authorized to review, guess what, you don't get to fucking take it. It's just that simple. Every single box and envelope needs to be searched for contraband. Have a team of some of our many well-trained prison COs handle it.

This is now item #1,543 on the "how is this not already a thing?" list exposed by the Trump administration.

 

[ronntaylor]

I get that most of you ignore things when I say them. How about when CNN says them? This is from CNN This Morning:




FYI, John Miller is CNN's Legal Analyst.

How many of you are nervous that Biden doing this will hurt the case against Trump?

Once again we join the ongoing series "Did you even fucking read the link you posted?!?"

You make a big claim about Miller being CNN's "Legal Analyst" (which another poster challenged, as I don't think that's his position either) and simply overlooked what you posted:

JOHN MILLER: So it doesn’t hold up in logic.

KAITLAN COLLINS: But does it hold up in court?

JOHN MILLER: Let alone court. Sure, it holds up in court as an argument.

It'll be as valid an argument as seen by Giuliani et al RE 2020 Presidential court cases. The "Legal analyst" you posted and hyped up says it doesn't hold up in logic. That it doesn't hold "[l]let alone in court." Only as an argument. For a maniac that has put forth some of the weakest, most bizarre and incompetent arguments at almost every court level possible.

This doesn't hurt Biden one bit. You can't even prove that he was the one that took the documents. That the taking was intentional and willful. And he certainly didn't obstruct anything, nor lie to investigating authorities. Mango did both for more than a year now.

Your postings are as entertaining as Mango & Giuliani's piss-poor legal arguments getting their teeth kicked in by judges all over the country.

 

[GermanSuplex]

I am simply saying that no charges will be brought against Trump for this because they would have to be brought against Biden and that isn't going to happen.

That's simply wrong on its face. That's like saying two people who both killed someone in separate car accidents should both be found guilty of DUI resulting in homicide, when only one was drunk and the other hit someone walking on a dark highway when driving sober. The sober person pulled over and called authorities, the drunk driver sped off and said he had every right to drive at whatever speed he wants at whatever level of intoxication because dammit, he was the president.

You have to throw out a lot of context and circumstantial evidence to get Biden's situation = Trump's situation.

Just to be clear here, there should and will be an investigation. Part of me had a feeling something like this would come down the pike at some point, because Trump always needs an alibi, and someone else doing a less egregious version of something he's done and continues to do is right up his ally.