Jan 6 Committee Public Hearings

Citysnaps

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I see people not caring about Jan 6th because it's over. It happened and it's over. The vast majority of people were not affected by it in any way. Sure they might have been mad or happy or some other feeling in between, but it didn't affect them personally.

And I see a lot of people who are still outraged we almost lost our democracy that day, shredding the Constitution in the process. Burns me up no end. We dodged a bullet. And it could very well happen again. Stay vigilant.

trump needs to face justice in order to heal that wound and set the country right. Demand it!
 

GermanSuplex

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You do realize they weren't paid right?

That’s kind of like saying the robbers took their shoes off so as not to stain your carpet while they emptied your house.

They cleaned up while in office, and they never should have had the jobs in the first place: they were beyond unqualified.

As for J6, I’m glad the committee subpoenaed Trump. It’s time we set precedent. The lack of precedent in all things Trump has aided him… people don’t know how to respond when the president does the unthinkable. So the time to set the precedent for what happens when they do is NOW. I think as the dominos fall, the confidence to indict and convict will grow.

Also, WTF is this moron rambling about? How the F**K do people take this seriously? How?

 
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shadow puppet

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“To vote for anyone still loyal to a party led by the narcissistic sociopath who put our elected officials and our political system itself in peril is to abandon any pretense of caring whether the United States remains a constitutional democracy.”

 

fooferdoggie

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mac_in_tosh

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The focus on Hunter Biden is just more GOP hypocrisy meant to foment outrage among their base. I really haven't followed the Hunter story to even know what they are accusing him of doing but I can't imagine that it's even a blip on the radar of what Trump and his kids did while he was in office (foreigners staying at Trump's hotel, paying for Secret Service and staff to stay at his country clubs almost every weekend, Jared's dealings with the Saudi's, etc.) not to mention during his whole life. It's just more of what they did with the Benghazi hearings, later admitting that those were just meant to weaken Clinton's presidential chances. What Trump taught the GOP is that lying works and the bigger and more persistent the lie, the more it works. The old question "Have you no sense of decency?" comes to mind and I guess the answer is yes.
 
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lizkat

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I see people not caring about Jan 6th because it's over. It happened and it's over. The vast majority of people were not affected by it in any way. Sure they might have been mad or happy or some other feeling in between, but it didn't affect them personally.

Inflation is affecting them. Today. Food prices, gas prices, home prices, now mortgage rates. All those things affect their quality of life right now. Sure, some may be happy of Trump is indicted, but it still will not affect their lives one bit. Same with those who don't think he should be indicted - no real effect on their lives.

Some people may think "Jan 6th is over." The planners of that insurrection saw it as a beginning. Trump has never even said the election is "over". He asserts against all facts in evidence and despite 60 losses in court that it was instead "stolen". To him, his followers, and they are still many, it is not over. To his wanna-be successors, it is not over either since they are still spouting his rubbish about stolen votes and the need to man up and deter rigged voting, as if fraud had been proven rampant instead of practically nonexistent.

The vast majority of Americans did not attend the 1/6 event. Many may not have spent any time watching it or clips thereafter, much less the House committee hearings. That does not and cannot possibly mean that "they were not affected by it in any way."

Anyone who lives in a state with newly revised voting or vote-counting laws now was affected. Those are the states with GOP-controlled legislatures that seized upon Trump's assertions of fraud in the 2020 elections. It was after all those assertions that underwrote his rationale for urging his followers on 1/6 to "fight like hell or you won't have a country."

Those legislative changes were propelled by the failure of the insurrection to flip the 2020 Biden win to Trump. And as a result of those election-related law changes, it is now possible for the official in charge of certifying vote counts in some states to alter them if not liking the results. It's not just presisdential votes involved here, it's congressional and state legislative races as well.

When the balance of power in a state's US House delegation is changed, that potentially also changes the result of a presidential election thrown into the House: each state delegation gets 1 vote and a state will likely vote for the candidate of its majority party. It takes 26 to win. The Democrats held the House majority for regular business of Congress after 2020 elections, but that does not translate to having a party majority in state delegation In fact in 2020 the Rs had majority of Congressional seats in 26 state delegations, the Ds 22, there was 1 tie and 1 where an indie could create a tie.

January 6th was an insurrection designed to derail the usual and constitutional "counting of the electoral vores" after all 50 states had certified their election results and after the slates of electors on December 14th had cast their votes to confirm the election of Biden and Harris.

The intent of the planners was to prevent that confirmation from taking place, to persuade the outgoing VP Pence to assert a power he did not even have (to decide for himself which party's ticket would run the executive branch for four years), and failing that, then to cause enough formal protest against electoral slates in any of several close or "battleground" states to throw the election into the House and let it pick the President.

To say that it didn't happen as planned and so no one was affected is to be naive. It was a dress rehearsal and will undoubtedly be attempted again in future, possibly sans the insurrectionists since now it may be possible to engineer a coup from some state counting houses. That might disappoint some drama seekers among extremist militia but it would make the pro-Trump Republican leadership happy. Shall we assume though that per Trump's original request to those militia dudes, they will be "standing back and standing by"? Seems prudent to do so, since they haven't said they're done with him and he hasn't said he's done with them either. He said "remember this day." It is not forgotten.

We are all affected by this turn of events, by the fact that a coup was attempted and that the reaction to its failure was for GOP-controlled legislatures across the country to doctor on voting laws and election supervision processes, the better to facilitate a desired outcome next time.
 

Citysnaps

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And a lot of people think we never even came close.........

1. So...what do you think? Did we never even come close?

2. How do you feel about the whole Jan6th insurrection and attempted coup? Ok with it? Does trump bear any responsibility fomenting it and failing to act timely before the Capitol was trashed and law enforcement injured/died as a result of defending your democracy and Constitution? Do you feel for those law enforcement officers who were injured/died?
 

Herdfan

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1. So...what do you think? Did we never even come close?

2. How do you feel about the whole Jan6th insurrection and attempted coup? Ok with it? Does trump bear any responsibility fomenting it and failing to act timely before the Capitol was trashed and law enforcement injured/died as a result of defending your democracy and Constitution?

I see all this as two separate incidents.

What happened at the Capitol was a bunch of idiots. There is no way these yahoos were going to overthrow anything. They should be punished.

As for Trump trying to get Pence to overturn the election, Nope. Pence did not have the power or authority to do so. So it wasn't going to happen.

I simply don't think our country was at risk. Nor apparently do a lot of people or the Jan 6 hearings would have had more viewers. People simply don't care as much as many on here do.

I will say Pelosi didn't do the hearings any favors when she went against long-standing tradition and refused to let McCarthy pick who he wanted on the committee from the GOP side. At that point, many Republicans saw it as a sham.
 

fooferdoggie

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I will say Pelosi didn't do the hearings any favors when she went against long-standing tradition and refused to let McCarthy pick who he wanted on the committee from the GOP side. At that point, many Republicans saw it as a sham.
republicans were appointed they refused. then McCarthy wanted to put in people who were involved in the insurrection. I* mean a pedo and Marjorie trailer grease you think those two would have added anything to it? sorry republicans chose not to get involved so they screwed themselves over on it.
 

Citysnaps

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I will say Pelosi didn't do the hearings any favors when she went against long-standing tradition and refused to let McCarthy pick who he wanted on the committee from the GOP side. At that point, many Republicans saw it as a sham.

You mean Jim Jordan? Based on his history of unruly theatrics that would have been incredibly disruptive (though no doubt entertaining for some).

The good news is there were two Republicans who care deeply about our democracy and Constitution. And they did an outstanding job helping to get to the truth.

"At that point, many Republicans saw it as a sham."

Did you see it as a sham? If so please elaborate.
 

lizkat

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As for Trump trying to get Pence to overturn the election, Nope. Pence did not have the power or authority to do so. So it wasn't going to happen.

Do we not think that a US President just trying to get the VP to derail the confirmation process and overturn the election was a starkly memorable act?

It was certainly as reprehensible as Trump trying to get the Georgia secretary of state to "find" another 11780 votes to put the state back in the Trump column where The Don thought it belonged.

The language of the original Electoral Count Act is murky enough that scholars on both sides of the partisan divide spent time in 2020 trying to come to a definitive opinion on wiggle room for vice presidential action. But, the preponderance of that research came down on the side of the VP's role as ceremonial and that is what Pence's own researchers told him.

The proposed Electoral Count Reform and Presidential Transition Improvement Act of 2022 (S4573) is bipartisan and has 31 cosponsors in the Senate, 17 Democrats and 14 Republicans. Among other things it does clarify the VP's role is strictly ministerial, i.e, he opens and counts votes but may not change them.​
The bill also makes it harder to protest a slate of electors on the day of the count --right now a single Senator or House member can object; the new law would require 1/5 of both the House and Senate to object-- and it also limits ability of a state to declare "a failed election," a case in which the state legislature can then overturn the popular vote.​
That provision was added because some states in 2020 that had Republican dominated legislatures, but where the states' voters had gone for Biden, actually wanted to declare "a failed election" under the 1845 law and declare Trump the winner of the state's electoral votes. The new legislation says that a state legislature can only deem its election "failed" in case of "extraordinary and catastrophic events." Not everyone is happy with that as sufficient limitation, all things considered, and so alternatives are in negotiation.​

Bottom line though? On that day of 1/6/21, it is only because Mike Pence declined to do more than open and count the electoral votes as they were presented, and relay objections to the House and Senate for their separate considerations, that the country was not thrown into complete chaos by having one man essentially say forget the election, the winner is my boss here, Don Trump.

What do we imagine might have happened then? All the Democrats in the House and Senate would have sighed and said gee, and here we thought we had it... Come on!

What would the Joint Chiefs have decided to do with their allegiance when January 20 rolled around and Trump refused to leave if Pence had "extended" that presidency... and Biden meanwhile had a case pending in SCOTUS arguing that a Pence intervention in the electoral count was illegal? We are fortunate we didn't have to find out.

Sure, Pence is a calculating guy and has largely come off as a sycophant because that was the best way to stay in the mix of potential inheritors of Trump's followers, at least until Trump started pressuring him to flip the election. But, his adherence to traditional views of the VP's role in the electoral vote confirmation was crucial in 2021, and his political courage was admirable. He's not an election stealer, whatever else he is. Considering some of the less scrupulous GOP officials hanging around the Capitol on January 6, I say the nation was fortunate that none of them stood in Mike Pence's shoes.

Do we think that bipartisan members of Congress would mess with the Electoral Count Act if they felt that what happened (and, didn't happen) on January 6th were no big deals?

It wasn't just the violent incursion into the Capitol and ransacking of members' offices. It was about the fact that a President of the USA pressured his own Vice President to overturn a free and fair election because he thought he saw wiggle room in our rule of law. And it was about that particular vice president happening to disagree, and sticking to his opinion, and refusing to cave in to Trump's insane demand.

How you can possibly suggest that "it wasn't going to happen" though, that is beyond me.

Hundreds of scholars delved into that question of VP authority for weeks and the Congress itself has obviously now figured it was not a slam dunk or a no-brainer for Pence to come down on the side of accepting the electoral votes as proffered, and merely relaying objections as usual when they were made under rule of the law as it existed on that date.

We dodged a bullet that day for sure. The day needs remembrance not just for infamy but as a turning point in our complacency about living in a democracy. I say the republic was hanging by a thread and on the integrity of a few people in the right place at the right time.
 

GermanSuplex

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And a lot of people think we never even came close.........

I guess the question is what do you consider to be “close”?

This truly baffles me. At what point does Trump cross a line for you? You seem legit more outraged about things you think Biden may have been engaged in based on pure conjecture while your most severe criticisms of things we KNOW Trump has done are at best “Well, I wish he hadn’t done that”.

The events of January 6 lay bare so much of the rank hypocrisy by republicans beyond the obvious attempted overthrow of democracy… do you think a group of BLM protesters would have gotten that close to the Capitol that day? Why are the republicans who supports law enforcement silent about the beating of cops and refusing to comply with subpoenas? Why do they refuse to testify in other cases in other states? Why should Hillary rot in jail for setting up an e-mail server while Trump should skate for the knowing and willing theft of sensitive documents? You guys are more concerned about the potential for classified documents to be mishandled instead of the actual mishandling of classified documents - the theft of them and the obstruction in an attempt to not return them.

Nobody like to cede ground to the other side, but that attempt to prove to the other side that your guy isn’t as bad as he’s made out to be just allows him to keep doing stuff that proves the exact opposite point you’re trying to make. It’s enabling, pure and simple.

I mean, any comparison you can make regarding any past president falls short when the last guy’s supporters showed up and hung gallows while marching through the Capitol looking to find elected officials. There is no comparison. If you guys were to finally stop rubber stamping all of Trump’s bad acts or giving the most tepid “condemnations” ever, maybe he’d disappear and your concerns about lower-hanging fruit - like Hunter Biden - would come across as more sincere. Why would I be more concerned about Hunter Biden’s personal misdeeds in the private sector than I would be Trump’s children in the White House, co-mingling their business affairs with the presidency and government office, hosting political gigs at the White House like it’s a fundraiser at his golf club?

Anything you can allege about the other side, one single man - Trump - has done pretty much all that and worse.
 

lizkat

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I will say Pelosi didn't do the hearings any favors when she went against long-standing tradition and refused to let McCarthy pick who he wanted on the committee from the GOP side. At that point, many Republicans saw it as a sham.

She did the country a favor. She would not have rejected serious picks for that panel. Jordan wanted it to be a circus, like he wanted the impeachment hearings to be the circuses that he had tried to make them become from his side of the aisle.

If some Republicans saw it as a sham at the point Pelosi basically said "not this time!" then they should have snapped out of it when seeing the methodical way in which the entire committee including the two Pelosi-selected Republicans have approached their task.

There was nothing fake or showboating about what has been presented. Video evidence, deposition excerpts, questions and answers under oath, no partisan jousting over some point offered by a member or witness. We are left to consider the evidence and the panel's narration and make of it what we will.

If one has not watched the hearings or read mainstream accounts of them then it's possible to pick up on a suggestion that it's been a sham hearing. I guess then one could also end up surprised that some of the insurrectionists shown in the video clips have been charged, taken pleas or been convicted and sentenced, etc. Likewise then one could be surprised if Garland later indicts some principals for helping plan, finance or shape an event that was not "just a protest gone bad." The hearing is not a sham, and neither was the 1/6 insurrection.
 

lizkat

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In 1845, there was no VP to count the votes. Nor in 1869, 1877, 1885, 1905 or as recently as 1949. They must have some sort of fallback.

President pro tempore of the senate generally takes up the VP's duties when VP is absent or the post is temporarily unfilled.

Now a president pro tempore of the Senate is not allowed to cast a tie breaking vote in the course of regular Senate business.

But electoral vote counting is a different process, and there don't seem to be any other specific limitations on filling in for the VP, just that one, that he cannot break ties in regular Senate votes.


The president pro tempore of the Senate can preside jointly with the Speaker of the House whenever the chambers are in joint session, same as the VP would usually do, and the January 6 vote counting process does occur in joint session. But again, that session and that vote count are not matters of Congressional business as usual.

There must be a record of who did count those electoral votes in the years you cited...

EDIT: meanwhile at least the Poynter Institute says if there's no VP, the president pro tempore of the Senate (and not the House Speaker) is who counts the electoral votes in the joint session convened for that purpose. That was in a piece they did for PolitiFact:

https://www.politifact.com/article/2021/jan/04/counting-electoral-votes-jan-6-what-you-need-know/
 
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Alli

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You do realize they weren't paid right?
Ivanka was paid as a consultant. There’s that.
You're probably correct they won't care about what Hunter did. But they may care if there is evidence that Joe profited from stuff Hunter did.
So now you’re just going to make up something and throw it out there to see if it gets any traction? WTH. Nobody has ever said anything about Joe profiting from anything Hunter may have done.
President pro tempore of the senate generally takes up the VP's duties when VP is absent or the post is temporarily unfilled.
This is why it was important to find out why Grassley was so sure Pence would not be at the final count and that he would be there in his stead.
 
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