Republicans Want to 'Phase Out' Electric Cars to Protect Fossil Fuels

[Chew Toy McCoy]

Banning gas stoves would deal a crushing blow to covering up a murder enthusiasts.

My father covered up a murder with a kitchen gas leak explosion, as did my grandfather before him. This is as American as baseball and bankruptcy.

 

[mollyc]

Our new house has a fresh air exchanger as part of the HVAC system because of how well the house is sealed. First time we have had one of those.



Does anyone have a gas stove without some sort of venting either a downdraft or a hood? Turn the switch on and the problem goes away, at least as far as indoor AQ.

A lot of houses only have a microwave hood that basically just recycles the air.

We have a six burner cooktop in our current house and a giant hood that vents outside, but I don't turn it on everytime I cook.

 

[Eric]

A lot of houses only have a microwave hood that basically just recycles the air.

We have a six burner cooktop in our current house and a giant hood that vents outside, but I don't turn it on everytime I cook.

We have one of these on the bottom of the microwave but it works pretty well, you can always tell because you can smell whatever we're cooking all over the place outside. Of course it's a newer home and that may have something to do with it, codes in California are pretty stringent.

 

[mollyc]

We have one of these on the bottom of the microwave but it works pretty well, you can always tell because you can smell whatever we're cooking all over the place outside. Of course it's a newer home and that may have something to do with it, codes in California are pretty stringent.

right, but not all of them vent outside. some of them just blow the air back into the house after "filtering" it.

 

[Eric]

right, but not all of them vent outside. some of them just blow the air back into the house after "filtering" it.

Wow, really? I couldn't imagine that when searing a steak or something like that.

 

[Herdfan]

A lot of houses only have a microwave hood that basically just recycles the air.

We have a six burner cooktop in our current house and a giant hood that vents outside, but I don't turn it on everytime I cook.

Wow, really? I couldn't imagine that when searing a steak or something like that.

My MIL's was like that. Her microwave/hood died and I went and bought her a new one. Imagine my surprise when I took the old one down and there was no vent pipe. I have done several kitchen remodels and didn't even know these existed.

Steak? Imagine liver & onions.

Our new house has all Samsung appliances including one of these. Already have a real vented hood sitting in the garage. Sadly they don't make a combo microwave/vented hood. So will need to find someplace for a microwave.

 

[Nycturne]

Does anyone have a gas stove without some sort of venting either a downdraft or a hood? Turn the switch on and the problem goes away, at least as far as indoor AQ.

It helps, but we were surprised that it only slowed the accumulation of CO2 in particular.

EDIT: Part of it is that you need airflow into the closed space for the CO2 to be properly vented, which is hard during winter, as you can imagine.

 

[AG_PhamD]

Our new house has a fresh air exchanger as part of the HVAC system because of how well the house is sealed. First time we have had one of those.



Does anyone have a gas stove without some sort of venting either a downdraft or a hood? Turn the switch on and the problem goes away, at least as far as indoor AQ.

I would say it’s somewhat uncommon for houses to have stoves with hoods or vents if the stove is located on an island. There are the pop-up vents but those tend to be rather expensive.

I suppose the greater issue is that many hoods are not actually vented to outside of the home/building.

I haven’t looked too deeply into these studies but I think it’s reasonable to assume openly burning a fossil fuel in your home is not the healthiest of choices. Apparently when stoves are off they can release some amount of hazardous substances. But I’m more curious to know at what concentration these exist and how factors like the size of the kitchen affect this. And what methods the studies used to predict risk.

At least one of these studies, the one that’s making headlines was funded by a green energy group that’s also lobbying to ban gas stoves, so I would not be surprised if their findings are overstated in order to promote their environmental goals.

Their results were basically inferred by taking the rate of childhood asthma and the number of houses with gas and estimating an association, which is not a quality way of doing research. But the study was technically not intended to draw a conclusion on this and while I’m sure there may have been some ulterior motives, I’d also a bit of misinterpretation by the media.

Many of these studies fail to factor in other environmental factors, like living in an urban area. Places with more pollution (cities) are probably more likely to have gas connections, therefore gas stoves are more likely in homes. Pollution is well attributed with childhood asthma, not surprisingly.

Also worth noting there was a massive childhood asthma global study in 2013 that looked at a number of potential casual factors. There was no association found between gas stoves and asthma.

 

[Roller]

I would say it’s somewhat uncommon for houses to have stoves with hoods or vents if the stove is located on an island. There are the pop-up vents but those tend to be rather expensive.

I suppose the greater issue is that many hoods are not actually vented to outside of the home/building.

I haven’t looked too deeply into these studies but I think it’s reasonable to assume openly burning a fossil fuel in your home is not the healthiest of choices. Apparently when stoves are off they can release some amount of hazardous substances. But I’m more curious to know at what concentration these exist and how factors like the size of the kitchen affect this. And what methods the studies used to predict risk.

At least one of these studies, the one that’s making headlines was funded by a green energy group that’s also lobbying to ban gas stoves, so I would not be surprised if their findings are overstated in order to promote their environmental goals.

Their results were basically inferred by taking the rate of childhood asthma and the number of houses with gas and estimating an association, which is not a quality way of doing research. But the study was technically not intended to draw a conclusion on this and while I’m sure there may have been some ulterior motives, I’d also a bit of misinterpretation by the media.

Many of these studies fail to factor in other environmental factors, like living in an urban area. Places with more pollution (cities) are probably more likely to have gas connections, therefore gas stoves are more likely in homes. Pollution is well attributed with childhood asthma, not surprisingly.

Also worth noting there was a massive childhood asthma global study in 2013 that looked at a number of potential casual factors. There was no association found between gas stoves and asthma.

I don't see a ban on gas stoves happening anytime soon for a number of reasons. But, for those who can afford to switch to induction, there are a number of advantages. We had a gas oven/cooktop under a microwave/vent combination. Whenever we used the cooktop, the microwave and adjacent cabinets heated up considerably, to the extent that the vent fan sometimes turned on. That doesn't happen with induction, and it's also a lot faster.

 

[AG_PhamD]

I don't see a ban on gas stoves happening anytime soon for a number of reasons. But, for those who can afford to switch to induction, there are a number of advantages. We had a gas oven/cooktop under a microwave/vent combination. Whenever we used the cooktop, the microwave and adjacent cabinets heated up considerably, to the extent that the vent fan sometimes turned on. That doesn't happen with induction, and it's also a lot faster.

My wife and I renovated our kitchen about 4 years ago and went with a gas cooktop. I’ve used induction before and while it’s fine, I much prefer cooking with gas. At the time I think there were a couple gas + induction cooktops, but they cost considerably more. My wife wanted to go with a Wolf cooktop (which already cost a small fortune) and they did not offer that option. Like most people, we opted for an electric oven.

Honestly, gas stoves seem like they have far less of a global environmental impact than say heating and hot water production. The issue here is the composition of energy sources and cost of energy in some places- like here in Mass where 2/3 is fossil fuel and power is #4 most expensive.

My building has gas hot water that powers our hydronic heating system, which is one of the most efficient ways of heating. Heat pumps can make a lot of sense, but I imagine the upfront cost is the biggest barrier is the upfront cost and cold climate performance. From what I’ve heard the newer heat pumps can adequately handle very cold temps (especially if the building is well sealed), but at a tremendous efficiency loss. The AC side efficiency fantastic though.

I suppose no one talks about heat/hot water generation because most people don’t have a strong personal preference as to how these utilities are provided, so long as it works and isn’t heinously expensive. Cooking on the other hand is a different story.

Anyways, I think the right has blown this whole gas stove thing out of reality, but it’s not fair for the left to gaslight (no pun intended) everyone pretending there are not people who are pushing to ban gas home appliances (not to mention the use/sale of small engines including generators, lawnmowers, etc) and that some of these efforts have been successful.

 

[Herdfan]

My wife and I renovated our kitchen about 4 years ago and went with a gas cooktop. I’ve used induction before and while it’s fine, I much prefer cooking with gas. At the time I think there were a couple gas + induction cooktops, but they cost considerably more. My wife wanted to go with a Wolf cooktop (which already cost a small fortune) and they did not offer that option. Like most people, we opted for an electric oven.

We have had Viking in our last 2 houses and they are similar to Wolf. We had a gas oven in the last house as part of rangetop. The gas bakes cakes and breads so much better than electric. It either doesn't dry it out as much or adds moisture. No matter why, baked goods are nice and moist.

In the current house we redid the kitchen almost as soon as we bought it and we moved the ovens over to a different wall where there was no gas and I didn't want to try and run gas over there so we went with electric. It's fine, but would do gas again if I could. New house has a gas stove and oven.

Heat pumps can make a lot of sense, but I imagine the upfront cost is the biggest barrier is the upfront cost and cold climate performance. From what I’ve heard the newer heat pumps can adequately handle very cold temps (especially if the building is well sealed), but at a tremendous efficiency loss. The AC side efficiency fantastic though.

Heat pumps are great in areas where you don't get extended cold or lots of subzero temps. When it gets that cold, you are no longer using the heat pump, but basically electric coils that are not efficient. Too many people around here have been talked into HP's and then have a stroke when they get that $500 electric bill in the winter.

 

[Nycturne]

Heat pumps are great in areas where you don't get extended cold or lots of subzero temps. When it gets that cold, you are no longer using the heat pump, but basically electric coils that are not efficient. Too many people around here have been talked into HP's and then have a stroke when they get that $500 electric bill in the winter.

Depends a lot on the specific unit being deployed and the refrigerant (and electricity costs). They’ve been getting better, and as R774 becomes more common in the US, COP should get a nice boost from that, even in the cold. We still back ours up with natural gas rather than electric heat, but the end result so far is that our total gas bill (which includes water heater, gas stove, and a base fee for providing the hookup) dropped by 36$ compared to the year before, but the electric bill only went up 10$ compared to the year before. This trend goes back the last 3 months, so it seems to hold. If we could ditch a couple electric heaters, I’d probably be happy, those represent about 30-40$/month more in the winter right now.

 

[AG_PhamD]

We have had Viking in our last 2 houses and they are similar to Wolf. We had a gas oven in the last house as part of rangetop. The gas bakes cakes and breads so much better than electric. It either doesn't dry it out as much or adds moisture. No matter why, baked goods are nice and moist.

In the current house we redid the kitchen almost as soon as we bought it and we moved the ovens over to a different wall where there was no gas and I didn't want to try and run gas over there so we went with electric. It's fine, but would do gas again if I could. New house has a gas stove and oven.





Heat pumps are great in areas where you don't get extended cold or lots of subzero temps. When it gets that cold, you are no longer using the heat pump, but basically electric coils that are not efficient. Too many people around here have been talked into HP's and then have a stroke when they get that $500 electric bill in the winter.

Yeah, we looked at Viking appliances but most people I know that have them have had problems (actually most of these premium brands seem to have a lot more problems than one would expect given the cost). The appliance shop recommended Wolf as well and they sold and serviced a lot of different brands. The ultimate factor of course was my wife wanting to “match” the cooktop and oven brands to the Subzero refrigerator we ordered (since Wolf and Subzero are the same company).

The one decision I regret is the Miele dishwasher, which was supposed to be the best at the time. It’s been a continuous source of problems.

Yeah, I suppose the heat pump is a trade off between AC efficiency over heating efficiency, if you live in a climate with cold winters. The thing I don’t like about heat systems that use tons of electricity is that it can be pretty hard to find a generator that produces enough electricity, especially in larger houses, especially if you don’t have gas… unless you have $20,000 to buy a commercial grade diesel generator. People can usually live fine without AC, but heat is a problem.

My parents live an hour outside NYC in CT, but they still lose power more than you’d think due to all the trees. And they’re not on the top of the list to get service restored given the population density. 10+ years ago during an ice storm they didn’t have power for 13 days… and this was Fairfield County in Connecticut, not rural Montana. Also 10+ years ago I didn’t have power for 4 days in downtown Boston due to a transformer explosion, thankfully it wasn’t cold.

And given how electricity supplies tend to be trending, I can only imagine rolling backouts will become more common- like we saw in Texas, CA, Etc. It was only several years ago I was in NYC and they were cutting power to neighborhoods due to a heat wave- and this seems to be at least an annual occurrence now. Naturally, it wasn’t the upscale Manhattan neighborhoods getting the cuts though, it was the Bronx or Harlem.

At least with gas (or oil, but gas is obviously much cleaner), you can keep heat and hot water running with a relatively small (and affordable) generator.

 

[SuperMatt]

Did they phase out electric cars yet? I want to know if they’re coming to take mine away so I can make other plans to get to work.

 

[Herdfan]

Yeah, we looked at Viking appliances but most people I know that have them have had problems (actually most of these premium brands seem to have a lot more problems than one would expect given the cost). The appliance shop recommended Wolf as well and they sold and serviced a lot of different brands. The ultimate factor of course was my wife wanting to “match” the cooktop and oven brands to the Subzero refrigerator we ordered (since Wolf and Subzero are the same company).

The one decision I regret is the Miele dishwasher, which was supposed to be the best at the time. It’s been a continuous source of problems.

Yeah we went all Viking except for the DW and fridge, those are Kitchenaid. But I will probably never buy another Whirlpool branded appliance again. Of fridge started having issues and we called the store we bought it and they sent out a tech. He said we needed a new board and he would order it and let us know. That same afternoon he called and said the board was unavailable because the factory that made them was destroyed in the Japan tsunami. He said Whirlpool had a program to help consumers get new a new one.

Well the Whirlpool program was basically to sell direct to the consumer at wholesale. What? Sorry, but if you want me to endure some pain, you need to share. Selling at wholesale is no pain for you. So I found some videos on the internet where you just needed to swap a capacitor off the board and it would be fine. Ordered a cap and a desoldering kit and had it fixed for less than $25. It has now been running off the new cap as long as it did off the original.

Yeah, I suppose the heat pump is a trade off between AC efficiency over heating efficiency, if you live in a climate with cold winters. The thing I don’t like about heat systems that use tons of electricity is that it can be pretty hard to find a generator that produces enough electricity, especially in larger houses, especially if you don’t have gas… unless you have $20,000 to buy a commercial grade diesel generator. People can usually live fine without AC, but heat is a problem.

Yeah, when superstorm Sandy dumped 10" of very heavy wet snow on us, we were woken by the generator straining under the load of the heat tabs in the HP. So we had to shut off the upstairs unit and just us the basement unit which was gas. It kept the house warm enough. The HP has now been replaced with a gas furnace/AC.

My parents live an hour outside NYC in CT, but they still lose power more than you’d think due to all the trees. And they’re not on the top of the list to get service restored given the population density. 10+ years ago during an ice storm they didn’t have power for 13 days… and this was Fairfield County in Connecticut, not rural Montana. Also 10+ years ago I didn’t have power for 4 days in downtown Boston due to a transformer explosion, thankfully it wasn’t cold.

And given how electricity supplies tend to be trending, I can only imagine rolling backouts will become more common- like we saw in Texas, CA, Etc. It was only several years ago I was in NYC and they were cutting power to neighborhoods due to a heat wave- and this seems to be at least an annual occurrence now. Naturally, it wasn’t the upscale Manhattan neighborhoods getting the cuts though, it was the Bronx or Harlem.

At least with gas (or oil, but gas is obviously much cleaner), you can keep heat and hot water running with a relatively small (and affordable) generator.

Our development is weird in that all utilities come from different directions depending on where you live. Seems the developer didn't want to bring them over a rocky hill so they brought them in from the backside. And on this circuit there are about 90 customers according to AEP and the power comes up the hill between some of those spindly pine trees. Good wind or heavy snow and we lose power every time. And with only 90 customers on the line, we aren't at the front of the queue to be fixed.

So when the derecho hit, when everyone was at HD getting on the list to buy a portable generator, I went to the back and wheeled up a 17kW. Paying for it was a bit of an adventure since they couldn't take CC's so I had to push it around the store while my wife went to my parents to get cash. I wasn't letting anyone take it. Had it running on the driveway that afternoon.

 

[mollyc]

I lived in Darien, CT for eight years. We did have a storm that left us without power for six or so days, back when my kids were really little. My husband was able to score a portable generator the morning after the storm (because the worst of it was overnight) and we were also lucky enough to get an electrician out to wire it into the house (on the last day, about two hours before the real power came back on). That house was oil heated; it always had a funny smell.

Our current house is gas heated (and cooking - both cooktop and outside grill)...so much nicer. And we have a gas powered whole house (not every outlet, but enough to get by for awhile) generator because of our Connecticut experience. We've luckily never had a major, multi-day power outage here like we did in CT, but it was still worth it to have it put in when we built this house.

 

[AG_PhamD]

Yeah we went all Viking except for the DW and fridge, those are Kitchenaid. But I will probably never buy another Whirlpool branded appliance again. Of fridge started having issues and we called the store we bought it and they sent out a tech. He said we needed a new board and he would order it and let us know. That same afternoon he called and said the board was unavailable because the factory that made them was destroyed in the Japan tsunami. He said Whirlpool had a program to help consumers get new a new one.

Well the Whirlpool program was basically to sell direct to the consumer at wholesale. What? Sorry, but if you want me to endure some pain, you need to share. Selling at wholesale is no pain for you. So I found some videos on the internet where you just needed to swap a capacitor off the board and it would be fine. Ordered a cap and a desoldering kit and had it fixed for less than $25. It has now been running off the new cap as long as it did off the original.




Yeah, when superstorm Sandy dumped 10" of very heavy wet snow on us, we were woken by the generator straining under the load of the heat tabs in the HP. So we had to shut off the upstairs unit and just us the basement unit which was gas. It kept the house warm enough. The HP has now been replaced with a gas furnace/AC.




Our development is weird in that all utilities come from different directions depending on where you live. Seems the developer didn't want to bring them over a rocky hill so they brought them in from the backside. And on this circuit there are about 90 customers according to AEP and the power comes up the hill between some of those spindly pine trees. Good wind or heavy snow and we lose power every time. And with only 90 customers on the line, we aren't at the front of the queue to be fixed.

So when the derecho hit, when everyone was at HD getting on the list to buy a portable generator, I went to the back and wheeled up a 17kW. Paying for it was a bit of an adventure since they couldn't take CC's so I had to push it around the store while my wife went to my parents to get cash. I wasn't letting anyone take it. Had it running on the driveway that afternoon.

The Subzeros are stupidly expensive, but they are known to last decades, which is hard to say for most appliances these days, and they just look fantastic. My parents have been using theirs with zero problems for 23 years. I would assume they hold their value fairly well when it comes to selling your home and they never look old because they never really change their style.

Honestly, I’ve heard universally terrible things about Kitchenaid refrigerators. I must say I do like their knurled door pulls though.

At the time I was between Miele and Bosch with the dishwasher. Miele was supposedly slightly more reliable in previous years. Sure enough, a year or two after I bought it their reliability rating had dropped considerably. And it turns out someone I know works for Bosch/Thermador and could have given me a deal haha. If this thing breaks again I’ll probably just replace it at this point.

That seems to be what these appliance companies do- they either effectively stop making the part, make it take so long to get the part it’s not worth fixing, or charge so much for the part + labor that you’re better off buying a new one.

I had to fix a dryer once and was astonished at how cheaply they are made- plastic pullies, motors with no protective casings (seems like a bad idea given how much lint was inside), etc. I came to realization you can probably only repair a washer/dryer so many times before you literally can’t put it back together because of how cheaply they are made.

Honestly, with all the concern about gas appliances increasing pollution and CO2 generally, maybe someone should do something about the fact that most modern appliances are built to be disposable. The carbon footprint of making a new appliance is probably exponentially higher than the environmental cost of using one.

 

[AG_PhamD]

Yeah we went all Viking except for the DW and fridge, those are Kitchenaid. But I will probably never buy another Whirlpool branded appliance again. Of fridge started having issues and we called the store we bought it and they sent out a tech. He said we needed a new board and he would order it and let us know. That same afternoon he called and said the board was unavailable because the factory that made them was destroyed in the Japan tsunami. He said Whirlpool had a program to help consumers get new a new one.

Well the Whirlpool program was basically to sell direct to the consumer at wholesale. What? Sorry, but if you want me to endure some pain, you need to share. Selling at wholesale is no pain for you. So I found some videos on the internet where you just needed to swap a capacitor off the board and it would be fine. Ordered a cap and a desoldering kit and had it fixed for less than $25. It has now been running off the new cap as long as it did off the original.




Yeah, when superstorm Sandy dumped 10" of very heavy wet snow on us, we were woken by the generator straining under the load of the heat tabs in the HP. So we had to shut off the upstairs unit and just us the basement unit which was gas. It kept the house warm enough. The HP has now been replaced with a gas furnace/AC.




Our development is weird in that all utilities come from different directions depending on where you live. Seems the developer didn't want to bring them over a rocky hill so they brought them in from the backside. And on this circuit there are about 90 customers according to AEP and the power comes up the hill between some of those spindly pine trees. Good wind or heavy snow and we lose power every time. And with only 90 customers on the line, we aren't at the front of the queue to be fixed.

So when the derecho hit, when everyone was at HD getting on the list to buy a portable generator, I went to the back and wheeled up a 17kW. Paying for it was a bit of an adventure since they couldn't take CC's so I had to push it around the store while my wife went to my parents to get cash. I wasn't letting anyone take it. Had it running on the driveway that afternoon.

My parents town is very suburban-rural- there’s lots of trees. People tend to value their privacy and I would guess most houses are on least 2 acres, but there are plenty of absurd mansions on 7-10+ acre estates to be found.

They don’t have gas hookups in their neighborhood, so they have a smaller buried tank for their cooktop and 2 of 3 fireplaces. Heat and hot water are oil. Traditional central air. They have a ridiculous 20-something (28?) KW commercial diesel standby generator which AFAIK can handle everything in their 5500sq ft house… except maybe the pool pump? They also have a 6000w Honda generator from their old house.

I just don’t understand what this power generation strategy is. There’s a big push in some places to phase out ICE engines in cars and tools, phase out gas/oil home appliances- switching all of that over to electric, meanwhile shutting down fossil fuel plants (and nuclear). While there’s definitely applications for solar/wind, they’re not capable of meeting our energy needs- plus there is very likely a cost issues caused by supply/demand. Relying on cheap, subsidized solar panels from China isn’t energy independence either. There are very limited ways of storing energy in a cost effective manner right now. And while sodium ion batteries are supposedly 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of lithium, their lifespan is 1/3 to 1/4 compared to lithium- so basically a wash. Plus they can take up 2x as much space.

I am all for creating a cleaner environment, I have nothing against EV’s, etc but I think there is a huge problem that many politicians and many in the public don’t consider about the practicality, feasibility, and externalities of these plans. Too often political decisions are made based on optics rather than the what actually makes sense.

We can convert every last fossil fuel energy consuming device to electric, but it’s a waste if we don’t have the energy to actually power them. I don’t think we should putting the cart before the horse, but it does makes sense to utilize our “green” technologies where they most benefit. ie Put the solar panels in SoCal, not New England where they’re 80% less efficient.

And all these articles that say the grid can handle 80% EV adoption are nonsense (and don’t factor in the phasing out of fossil fuels in home utilities and power generation)- what the ”experts” (advocacy groups) actually say is that the grid *could* (or “will” with major changes) support it provided we vastly expand renewables, rely tremendously on battery storage (probably not realistic given costs and element supply constraints) create a smart grid, have smart charging for vehicles, build new transmission lines (easier said than done), mandatory + voluntary energy conservation, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Yoused]

I am all for creating a cleaner environment, I have nothing against EV’s, etc but I think there is a huge problem that many politicians and many in the public don’t consider about the practicality, feasibility, and externalities of these plans. Too often political decisions are made based on optics rather than the what actually makes sense.

You seem to be viewing "what makes sense" through a lens of what you are accustomed to, which appears to be that of a growth oriented socioeconomic system that is quite simply not sustainable. Our "energy needs" are ridiculous and they are damaging not only our environment but, IMO, also our psyches. Convenience is pleasant, but it is making us soft and fluffy, which in the end, again IMO, is not a good thing.

 

[Apple fanboy]

My parents town is very suburban-rural- there’s lots of trees. People tend to value their privacy and I would guess most houses are on least 2 acres, but there are plenty of absurd mansions on 7-10+ acre estates to be found.

They don’t have gas hookups in their neighborhood, so they have a smaller buried tank for their cooktop and 2 of 3 fireplaces. Heat and hot water are oil. Traditional central air. They have a ridiculous 20-something (28?) KW commercial diesel standby generator which AFAIK can handle everything in their 5500sq ft house… except maybe the pool pump? They also have a 6000w Honda generator from their old house.

I just don’t understand what this power generation strategy is. There’s a big push in some places to phase out ICE engines in cars and tools, phase out gas/oil home appliances- switching all of that over to electric, meanwhile shutting down fossil fuel plants (and nuclear). While there’s definitely applications for solar/wind, they’re not capable of meeting our energy needs- plus there is very likely a cost issues caused by supply/demand. Relying on cheap, subsidized solar panels from China isn’t energy independence either. There are very limited ways of storing energy in a cost effective manner right now. And while sodium ion batteries are supposedly 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of lithium, their lifespan is 1/3 to 1/4 compared to lithium- so basically a wash. Plus they can take up 2x as much space.

I am all for creating a cleaner environment, I have nothing against EV’s, etc but I think there is a huge problem that many politicians and many in the public don’t consider about the practicality, feasibility, and externalities of these plans. Too often political decisions are made based on optics rather than the what actually makes sense.

We can convert every last fossil fuel energy consuming device to electric, but it’s a waste if we don’t have the energy to actually power them. I don’t think we should putting the cart before the horse, but it does makes sense to utilize our “green” technologies where they most benefit. ie Put the solar panels in SoCal, not New England where they’re 80% less efficient.

And all these articles that say the grid can handle 80% EV adoption are nonsense (and don’t factor in the phasing out of fossil fuels in home utilities and power generation)- what the ”experts” (advocacy groups) actually say is that the grid *could* (or “will” with major changes) support it provided we vastly expand renewables, rely tremendously on battery storage (probably not realistic given costs and element supply constraints) create a smart grid, have smart charging for vehicles, build new transmission lines (easier said than done), mandatory + voluntary energy conservation, etc, etc, etc.

90% of EV charging occurs at night when the grid is quiet. The other option is to continue to use ICE vehicles, heat up the planet and use more electricity for AC for the lucky 10% that can afford. The rest of the planet can burn though?